sinless? or sinning less.

[Pumicestone]

Assuming that Paul's account of events is accurate (as we now have it), there could quite easily have been a small group of Nazarenes (or Nazoreans) developing a Yeshua cult at Antioch.
Then along comes the charismatic Paul and spends a year with them. At some stage, they start using the term 'Christians'.
Or others thus describe them.
Bit hard to know which came first. It is unclear and hardly important.

But you're right about the fledgling "Catholic" church predating Constantine.
It was his power and authority and 'marketing skills' which created the boom though.

And his lackeys and appointees who developed the 'cannon' for HIS revision and approval.

 

[gotime]

There is nothing to forgive. I go to a church once a week that is not my own. I am just being honest here. The overriding impression I get is, the Holy Spirit is not there in the fullness available, it seems like a void, something is missing. To ne fair, I would not simply feel that way as to the church I am speaking of.
As I said earlier, I know what it is to simply follow the letter, I did so for many years.
The problem is, many do not understand what being born again entails/the result of this happening. No truly born again person of the Holy Spirit could be convinced they never sin, that would not be possible, someone who simply has the literal letter may convince themselves of that. For as I mentioned earlier, many speak of obeying literal laws/commandments and the need to obey them, but do not know it seems when they break them, so to them, they might be sinless also.

I think you missed my point, My point was the truth must be heard first before it is put on the heart. which you seem to agree with. which means the letter of the law still serves its purpose of making one aware and thus paving way for the spiritual reality.

You spoke earlier about when you came to God that you instinctively new not to use cuss words with Gods name. I put that to prayer last night cause I know what you are talking about, and I to wondered this:

If the law is written on our hearts by God then why do some feel convicted in some areas and others do not. The answer came to me in a dream last night, and so I will simply give what I received which makes sense to me.

We are all brought up different, Our Parents instill different values into us, The things we watch on tv etc do this also. Everything has an impact on us. The truth of God is true no matter where it comes from.

For example, we could have been watching something like little house on the prairie while young and a truth was shown on there for example Do not lie under any circumstances. and the Holy Spirit used that to impress your mind with the truth. so that later when you accepted Jesus The spirit used that seed to write it on your heart.

But someone else did not have that influence so they have not yet heard that truth from any ware, So when they come to Christ they do not have that written on their hearts yet because they have not yet heard the truth concerning it in which the Holy Spirit can convict.

That is why different people are convicted differently, But the come into unity by the word which fills in the gaps bringing us into unity of the same conviction. Thus the letter still has importance and still points out sin.

To the rest of your post, I also once followed the letter and that did not get me far, but the Spirit of the letter has made me free in Christ Jesus.

 

[michael56]

I think you missed my point, My point was the truth must be heard first before it is put on the heart. which you seem to agree with. which means the letter of the law still serves its purpose of making one aware and thus paving way for the spiritual reality.

What truth must be heard? Must a person read the literal letter of the Ten Commandments before they can repent and be saved, is that what you are saying? I have never heard that stated before. A person goes to a church service, they are convicted they are a sinner, they see the sordidness of the life they have led. Do you believe that is possible without firstly reading the literal letter? Yes it is! The Holy Spirit is convicting them of their true state. Does this mean the law has already been written on their heart and mind? No! For they must firstly respond to the Spirit's conviction, repent, and ask Christ into their life as Lord and Saviour, at that point the law is written on their heart and placed on their mind, for then, in their born again heart they want to obey the law placed there. They have not had to read the literal letter, nor have they had to have the Ten Commandments read out to them in order to repent and be saved. They have had to hear the message that Jesus died for them a sinner

You spoke earlier about when you came to God that you instinctively new not to use cuss words with Gods name. I put that to prayer last night cause I know what you are talking about, and I to wondered this:

If the law is written on our hearts by God then why do some feel convicted in some areas and others do not. The answer came to me in a dream last night, and so I will simply give what I received which makes sense to me.

We are all brought up different, Our Parents instill different values into us, The things we watch on tv etc do this also. Everything has an impact on us. The truth of God is true no matter where it comes from.

For example, we could have been watching something like little house on the prairie while young and a truth was shown on there for example Do not lie under any circumstances. and the Holy Spirit used that to impress your mind with the truth. so that later when you accepted Jesus The spirit used that seed to write it on your heart.

But someone else did not have that influence so they have not yet heard that truth from any ware, So when they come to Christ they do not have that written on their hearts yet because they have not yet heard the truth concerning it in which the Holy Spirit can convict.

That is why different people are convicted differently, But the come into unity by the word which fills in the gaps bringing us into unity of the same conviction. Thus the letter still has importance and still points out sin.

To the rest of your post, I also once followed the letter and that did not get me far, but the Spirit of the letter has made me free in Christ Jesus.

Your explanation of why some are convicted and some are not of certain sin has of course sound logical sense. But God does not work according to sound logical sense, but rather supernatural spiritual sense. Whereas it is true that as we journey on in our Christian life, we are shown arrears of our lives that need to change, this is different from knowing the truth of the law placed on our hearts and minds at the point of conversion. And spiritual discernmemt should show you that taking the Lords name in vain is definatley written on your mind and placed on your heart at the point of conversion.

In no church-bar one I have ever been to in 35 years of going to church have I openly heard Christians take the name of the Lord in vain. I was to put it mildly shocked, that people who had been baptised in water and were church members openly, and irreverently took God's name in vain laughing as they did so. It was a different world to me, I cannot emphasise how much it affected me. Don't misunderstand me here, the point I am making is, people could do it without conscience. For we all fall short in many ways, but to take the Lords name in vain without conscience, or belief you are doing anything wrong was or has been unheard of in any church I had ever been to previously.
If the law God requires you to keep is within you, you must know what that law is, it is not possible to without conscience break it.
It is I am afraid an example of people trying to follow the letter, without understanding what the letter states. The Holy Spirit turns on the light, he is the key. Am I saying the people being referred to are not Christians? I have never said that of anyone who claims to be a Christian, But I can ony repeat, it is a Christianity I fail to understand

 

[gotime]

Your explanation of why some are convicted and some are not of certain sin has of course sound logical sense. But God does not work according to sound logical sense, but rather supernatural spiritual sense. Whereas it is true that as we journey on in our Christian life, we are shown arrears of our lives that need to change, this is different from knowing the truth of the law placed on our hearts and minds at the point of conversion. And spiritual discernmemt should show you that taking the Lords name in vain is definatley written on your mind and placed on your heart at the point of conversion.

In no church-bar one I have ever been to in 35 years of going to church have I openly heard Christians take the name of the Lord in vain. I was to put it mildly shocked, that people who had been baptised in water and were church members openly, and irreverently took God's name in vain laughing as they did so. It was a different world to me, I cannot emphasise how much it affected me. Don't misunderstand me here, the point I am making is, people could do it without conscience. For we all fall short in many ways, but to take the Lords name in vain without conscience, or belief you are doing anything wrong was or has been unheard of in any church I had ever been to previously.
If the law God requires you to keep is within you, you must know what that law is, it is not possible to without conscience break it.
It is I am afraid an example of people trying to follow the letter, without understanding what the letter states. The Holy Spirit turns on the light, he is the key. Am I saying the people being referred to are not Christians? I have never said that of anyone who claims to be a Christian, But I can ony repeat, it is a Christianity I fail to understand

fair enough. thanx for the reply.

 

[gotime]

What are your thoughts on sinless perfection? Can a person become sinless in this life?

I think it depends on Faith, Do we put our faith in Jesus or good works?

Jesus can purge us of all sin and keep us form falling. The key is learning to keep our eyes on Jesus at all times.

 

[michael56]

Concerning the title of the thread. I often read posts from some quoting the Ten Commandments in inference that they are the yardstick of obedience. My minister stated in church last night the bar is set much higher than the Ten Commandments, and he is of course correct. If we want to look at where the bar is set, it would be better to quote the beatitudes in my opinion.

 

[gotime]

Concerning the title of the thread. I often read posts from some quoting the Ten Commandments in inference that they are the yardstick of obedience. My minister stated in church last night the bar is set much higher than the Ten Commandments, and he is of course correct. If we want to look at where the bar is set, it would be better to quote the beatitudes in my opinion.

I think your right the standard is much higher however I think that is because of misunderstanding. The same expectation was in the Old but the Jews lowered it in order to make their righteousness higher.

 

[shoki]

Not to at all sin is the quality of LORD Almighty..
Humans are prone to mistakes... So for them there is a door for repentence which is always open... Lord is always ready to pardon his slaves and he is waiting for them to turn back from the edge of fire... How happy is a mother on seeing her child after a long time so is the Lord..

 

[KJV1611]

Paul was speaking in those verses you gave how his flesh goes against what he knows is wrong to do and he continues to do it anyway. Because he can not alone change his sinful ways he needed help to change his ways, which is why he said who can save me from this wretched way. Then he goes into Jesus Christ being his Savior and walking in the Spirit leads him away from that condemnation that the flesh leads to.
Walking in flesh leads to condemnation, and walking in the Spirit leads to eternal life....................

Here's a simple "saved" or "not saved" question. In Romans 7:16-17, was Paul talking about the saved Paul or the unsaved Paul?

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[haz]

Hi gotime,

Can you explain your 2 quotes below, as they seem to contradict each other

Originally Posted by gotime
Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.

Originally Posted by gotime
. I do not accuse or put in unbelief because people slip up



So which is it?
You say that Christians do not commit physical adultery as that is what unsaved people do.
But then you say that Christians who slip up are not in unbelief.


And can you answer this question below.

I know of Adventists who were divorcees who married another.
Mark 10:11,12 calls this adultery.
He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Are these Adventists unsaved/adulterers, as you suggested earlier?

Or did they just slip up and are still saved as you also seemed to suggest earlier?

 

[Jason0047]

Here's a simple "saved" or "not saved" question. In Romans 7:16-17, was Paul talking about the saved Paul or the unsaved Paul?

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Unsaved Paul or the old Paul. Romans 7:1 says he is speaking to those who know the law. In Romans 7:25, Paul makes a transition and is speaking of his present day experience or recent conversion in Christ. However, the majority of Romans 7 is dealing with Paul before he became a Christian. In fact, we know Romans 7 primarily deals with Paul being unsaved because Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin; Yet, Romans 8:2 says, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made Paul free from the law of sin and death.

 

[KJV1611]

Unsaved Paul or the old Paul. Romans 7:1 says he is speaking to those who know the law. In Romans 7:25, Paul makes a transition and is speaking of his present day experience or recent conversion in Christ. However, the majority of Romans 7 is dealing with Paul before he became a Christian. In fact, we know Romans 7 primarily deals with Paul being unsaved because Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin; Yet, Romans 8:2 says, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made Paul free from the law of sin and death.

So what does verse 17 mean? Paul no longer sins but sin that dwells in him sins.

 

[michael56]

So what does verse 17 mean? Paul no longer sins but sin that dwells in him sins.

You need to read all of it, not just pluck one or two verses at random.

As I am sure you would not expect a Christian to live a holier life than Paul, do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?

 

[KJV1611]

You need to read all of it, not just pluck one or two verses at random.

As I am sure you would not expect a Christian to live a holier life than Paul, do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?

I'm not plucking a verse at random. Every verse has a meaning, I'm asking the meaning of that verse in you guy's opinion. I know what the verse means and it proves that Paul is talking about the converted Paul and not the unsaved Paul.

Paul is no different than any other saved human being on this planet. I still struggle with sin and you still struggle with sin. Paul still struggled with sin. The people who say they don't struggle with sin are liars.

None of you guys will expound on the verses because you don't understand them. If you understood them you gladly explain the meaning to me.

 

[michael56]

I'm not plucking a verse at random. Every verse has a meaning, I'm asking the meaning of that verse in you guy's opinion. I know what the verse means and it proves that Paul is talking about the converted Paul and not the unsaved Paul.

Paul is no different than any other saved human being on this planet. I still struggle with sin and you still struggle with sin. Paul still struggled with sin. The people who say they don't struggle with sin are liars.

None of you guys will expound on the verses because you don't understand them. If you understood them you gladly explain the meaning to me.

I am happy to go over them, but please firstly tell me if you think the following is a correct reflection of a mature Christians life


do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?

 

[KJV1611]

I am happy to go over them, but please firstly tell me if you think the following is a correct reflection of a mature Christians life


do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?

As long as you are in this "body of death" Michael you are sold to sin. None of us have been delivered from this body yet... nobody's sin nature is gone.

It's not a blanket statement that Paul can't do anything right and it's not a blanket statement that Paul does everything wrong. And yes I absolutely believe that you and every other Christian struggles with and lose battles to sin. But, in your spirit you love the law and you want to please God and you hate it when you sin. If that is you, then you consent that the law is good. It is no longer you that sins, but sin that still dwells in the body of death that you still inhabit.

 

[michael56]

As long as you are in this "body of death" Michael you are sold to sin. None of us have been delivered from this body yet... nobody's sin nature is gone.

It's not a blanket statement that Paul can't do anything right and it's not a blanket statement that Paul does everything wrong. And yes I absolutely believe that you and every other Christian struggles with and lose battles to sin. But, in your spirit you love the law and you want to please God and you hate it when you sin. If that is you, then you consent that the law is good. It is no longer you that sins, but sin that still dwells in the body of death that you still inhabit.

Please plainly answer the question if you would like me to answer yours

 

[KJV1611]

Please plainly answer the question if you would like me to answer yours

Originally Posted by michael56
I am happy to go over them, but please firstly tell me if you think the following is a correct reflection of a mature Christians life


do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?

Do I believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? Yes
Do I believe Christians can't always do the good they want to do? Yes
Do I believe Christians keep doing some things they hate? Yes
Do I believe Christians have the desire to do what is good but they can't always carry it out? Yes
Do I believe Christians can't do all the good they want to do but the rather sometimes do the things they don't want to do? Yes

 

[michael56]

Originally Posted by michael56
I am happy to go over them, but please firstly tell me if you think the following is a correct reflection of a mature Christians life


do you believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? They cannot do what they want to do, but what they hate to do they keep on doing. Christians have the desire to do what is good but they cannot carry it out. They cannot do the good they want to do, but rather the evil they do not want to do, this they keep on doing.

Do you believe this reflects the life of a mature Christian?


Do I believe Christians are sold as slaves to sin? Yes
Do I believe Christians can't always do the good they want to do? Yes
Do I believe Christians keep doing some things they hate? Yes
Do I believe Christians have the desire to do what is good but they can't always carry it out? Yes
Do I believe Christians can't do all the good they want to do but the rather sometimes do the things they don't want to do? Yes

Please do not try and bend what is written. You want your verses addressed and I am happy to do so, but firstly please tell me if you believe the following highlighted words are how a mature Christian lives their life in your view. It is simply a yes they do or no they do not.

I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

[SUP] [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

 

[KJV1611]

Please do not try and bend what is written. You want your verses addressed and I am happy to do so, but firstly please tell me if you believe the following highlighted words are how a mature Christian lives their life in your view. It is simply a yes they do or no they do not.

I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

Clarify your question. Are trying to say that everything Paul did before he got saved was evil and that Paul was incapable of doing any good before he got saved?