Some Thoughts on Intergity

[Seeker47]

I am facing a dilemma. This is serious and controversial. I have no desire to troll; and hope my past conduct on CC makes that clear. Some readers may define this as trolling, while others will regard it as a legitimate discussion. The latter is my intent.

This is also very personal for me. I am guilty of mishandling this in the past and have paid dearly.

In writing a sermon or a Bible commentary, we may be led to consider the historical and cultural issues that faced the early church. Some of the highly influential church founders held racial and religious opinions that are highly inflammatory. The controversies have raged throughout history and appear to be even more volatile today.

How does a believer maintain intellectual integrity in this highly inflamed and hostile environment?

There are a few modern words that have been created to minimize the impact. These words are only marginally effective and remain risky. They also deliberately cloud the issue and conceal the truth. The “new words” feel dishonest. They also feel cowardly. They effectively kick the can even further down the road, failing for another generation to address the truth.

It appears that modern Christendom kicks the can and reacts vigorously to anyone who does not. Most of us go along to get along, while real growth delays.

Do we challenge or placate? The costs can be very high.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I don't really concern myself with intellectual honesty or new words, I just try to have the mind of Christ.

 

[Godsgirl1983]

I'm sorry, I don't have an answer for you, but for what it's worth

others will regard it as a legitimate discussion. The latter is my intent.

that is the impression that I get.

 

[JaumeJ]

Because my parents changed homes over a dozen times in my upbringing, I would go to the nearest building with a cross on top to worship from about 4 years of age to adolescence.

As a child I was taught in Bible school that Jesus, Yeshua, loves me, and this remained my doctrine until I stopped going to the nearest building to my domicile, regardless of the Christian denomination.

I was obliged to stop attendance for reasoning I could not deny. I was hearing, from the pulpits, teachings against Jews, blacks and others that was contrary to the teaching of our Lord and Savior.

I never stopped believing that Jesus loved me and all people, and it was not until the Holy Spirit entered into me that I found total comfort in sharing the Word with others and reading the Word for my faith. This has kept me ever since. I was not given wisdom ever to join any congregation with a named deno9mination as doctrine from the Word.

Were any to ask me to name my faith, I would be obliged to say it is "the faith of Abraham" Jesus teaches it is so, Whom I adore calling byu the name He was called while here the first time. Praise Yeshua, Lord, God and Redeemer, amen.

 

[JayWalker]

How does a believer maintain intellectual integrity in this highly inflamed and hostile environment?

Well first off it's not intellectual - it's spiritual.

Intellectualism is a foray in to the darkened wisdom of man where people are trying to understand God from man kind's view point living here in a world full of sin and darkness

Christians need to see things from the Lord's point of view and walk in agreement with Him.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

1 Peter 1:22 tells us our soul is purified by obeying the truth

John 17:17
Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy word is Truth.

1 Corinthians 2:16 tells us that believers have access to the thoughts and understanding of Christ through the Holy Spirit, enabling them to comprehend spiritual truths and emphasizes the truth that Christians can think in alignment with Christ's perspective.

1 Corinthians 2:9-12
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Ephesians 1:16-19
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the
knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of
the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power

 

[JayWalker]

Do we challenge or placate? The costs can be very high.

No, we should live for the Lord instead of the opinions of men or trying to please others.

Our relationship with the Lord always comes before people

The stress comes from trying to please people and worrying about offending people.

Sure we should be polite as possible butt you can be assured you will cross paths with many who will disagree with you so our focus needs to be putting the Lord first, living for Him first

If people have a problem with that then they may need to be put on ignore.

 

[studier]

What's the specific issue - challenge or placate what?

 

[Gideon300]

I am facing a dilemma. This is serious and controversial. I have no desire to troll; and hope my past conduct on CC makes that clear. Some readers may define this as trolling, while others will regard it as a legitimate discussion. The latter is my intent.

This is also very personal for me. I am guilty of mishandling this in the past and have paid dearly.

In writing a sermon or a Bible commentary, we may be led to consider the historical and cultural issues that faced the early church. Some of the highly influential church founders held racial and religious opinions that are highly inflammatory. The controversies have raged throughout history and appear to be even more volatile today.

How does a believer maintain intellectual integrity in this highly inflamed and hostile environment?

There are a few modern words that have been created to minimize the impact. These words are only marginally effective and remain risky. They also deliberately cloud the issue and conceal the truth. The “new words” feel dishonest. They also feel cowardly. They effectively kick the can even further down the road, failing for another generation to address the truth.

It appears that modern Christendom kicks the can and reacts vigorously to anyone who does not. Most of us go along to get along, while real growth delays.

Do we challenge or placate? The costs can be very high.

My late mentor and friends of 30 years was described as a "catalyst". A catalyst causes a reaction without being affected itself. My friend surely did that. How? Often it was simply the presence of Jesus in his life. And that he had an inbuilt phony detector.

He was not popular with such people, as you can imagine. And people lied about him. My friend told three couples that they needed to marry rather than live together. Someone we both knew asked me, "Is he still breaking up marriages?"

Often the people doing the slander were painting him black to make themselves look white. He was not perfect. But he had a relationship with God that few men have. I owe him a great deal and much of that is because he did not hold back when I was in the wrong. And when my marriage failed, I could not have asked for a more compassionate and helpful friend.

It seems that the church has fallen for the lie that we should be inoffensive. The cross is offensive; Lord Jesus is an offence and a stumbling block. The truth is offensive to many.

The Word of God is the Living and active "sword of the Spirit." It's sharper than any natural sword. Using some kind of sanitised vocabulary is exactly what no one needs. The truth can set us free, but not if we remove its impact.

I don't like blunt tools. I have a ceramic kitchen knife, razor sharp. When I was woodworking, I made sure my chisels were sharp. It made the job much easier. Yes, we need wisdom and we must speak the truth in love. But we must speak the truth.

 

[Seeker47]

Thank you! You speak words I need to hear. Maybe it's just weariness.

 

[Seeker47]

No, we should live for the Lord instead of the opinions of men or trying to please others.

Our relationship with the Lord always comes before people

The stress comes from trying to please people and worrying about offending people.

Sure we should be polite as possible butt you can be assured you will cross paths with many who will disagree with you so our focus needs to be putting the Lord first, living for Him first

If people have a problem with that then they may need to be put on ignore.

I agree but it's not all about pleasing people. We cannot speak to people who have closed their ears. Perhaps more critical is bearing the costs; not only our own but also the costs payed by loved ones and family. Maybe we can handle isolation and marginalization, but bringing that on others is a heavy load to carry.

 

[Lanolin]

I agree but it's not all about pleasing people. We cannot speak to people who have closed their ears. Perhaps more critical is bearing the costs; not only our own but also the costs payed by loved ones and family. Maybe we can handle isolation and marginalization, but bringing that on others is a heavy load to carry.

Hold fast to the truth

I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to here, but in the Bible there's numerous issues that the people in biblical times had to deal with xenophobia, racism, slavery, marriage problems...it is nothing new.

Some things are going to offend others. Nobody listened to the prophets in Israel, so it can't really be expected that other nations would always hear what Jesus, who is the ultimate prophet, had to say. We know Islam recognises Muhammed as their prophet and downplay's Jesus sacrifice and resurrection. If we look at Islam's religion it is even more strict than the Jewish religion ever was.

You just keep on keeping on. If they will not listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

 

[Seeker47]

Hold fast to the truth

I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to here, but in the Bible there's numerous issues that the people in biblical times had to deal with xenophobia, racism, slavery, marriage problems...it is nothing new.

Some things are going to offend others. Nobody listened to the prophets in Israel, so it can't really be expected that other nations would always hear what Jesus, who is the ultimate prophet, had to say. We know Islam recognises Muhammed as their prophet and downplay's Jesus sacrifice and resurrection. If we look at Islam's religion it is even more strict than the Jewish religion ever was.

You just keep on keeping on. If they will not listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

I know you speak truth, thank you for that.

Beside rejection by the Priests and Pharisees, Jesus must have felt further and further marginalized by friends and neighbors too. I guess that is the point of his comments about prophets in their home-town. I think I need more pryer time on this!

 

[Suze]

I am facing a dilemma. This is serious and controversial. I have no desire to troll; and hope my past conduct on CC makes that clear. Some readers may define this as trolling, while others will regard it as a legitimate discussion. The latter is my intent.

This is also very personal for me. I am guilty of mishandling this in the past and have paid dearly.

In writing a sermon or a Bible commentary, we may be led to consider the historical and cultural issues that faced the early church. Some of the highly influential church founders held racial and religious opinions that are highly inflammatory. The controversies have raged throughout history and appear to be even more volatile today.

How does a believer maintain intellectual integrity in this highly inflamed and hostile environment?

There are a few modern words that have been created to minimize the impact. These words are only marginally effective and remain risky. They also deliberately cloud the issue and conceal the truth. The “new words” feel dishonest. They also feel cowardly. They effectively kick the can even further down the road, failing for another generation to address the truth.

It appears that modern Christendom kicks the can and reacts vigorously to anyone who does not. Most of us go along to get along, while real growth delays.

Do we challenge or placate? The costs can be very high.

I'm so sorry , I have no idea what u r talking about it could b a cultural thing but , u would have to b very specific for me to b able to tell u what I think . I understand if u don't want to

 

[Seeker47]

I'm so sorry , I have no idea what u r talking about it could b a cultural thing but , u would have to b very specific for me to b able to tell u what I think . I understand if u don't want to

I'll be more specific. I believe the early church was founded with deep antisemitic roots. Those roots permeated early church doctrine and continue today. In my opinion the church must examine these doctrines if it is to remain relevant. Is this why the church lacks power today? For sure, I love the church and especially the people who worship there. On the occasions I have suggested there may be a problem, I have been confronted with hostility, rejection, and isolation by church leadership. This has been painful for me and my family. We were rejected by a church we attended regularly for 15 years. I struggle with effectively challenging the church without people closing their ears and marginalizing the messenger. I haven’t been very successful.

I hope this helps.

 

[Suze]

I'll be more specific. I believe the early church was founded with deep antisemitic roots. Those roots permeated early church doctrine and continue today. In my opinion the church must examine these doctrines if it is to remain relevant. Is this why the church lacks power today? For sure, I love the church and especially the people who worship there. On the occasions I have suggested there may be a problem, I have been confronted with hostility, rejection, and isolation by church leadership. This has been painful for me and my family. We were rejected by a church we attended regularly for 15 years. I struggle with effectively challenging the church without people closing their ears and marginalizing the messenger. I haven’t been very successful.

I hope this helps.

Thank you yes it does . U can only do so much to help people understand something , u have done your best and they r not ready to receive your words yet . In time , they may think about what u said and come around to your way of thinking . Remember that u r responsible only for your self and that God knows your heart and theirs . U have told them what u think and that's all u can really do . My great grandad was a German Jew , his surname was Finkelstein . He married a lady who was from an aristocratic family , they were Methodists and even though she never converted to Judaism they completely cut her off . She didn't care . She maintained her Methodist faith and that was enough for her . Try not to b down hearted , even Saul thought he was doing the right thing when he was persecuting the early Christians . Your congregation may c the light one day . Give them some time and stay strong in your Lord .

 

[JaumeJ]

The "early church" was instructed to no lord it over the original vine, for we are but shoots grafted into it.

This does not say that all Jews are good, rather we are to beware of those who say they are Jews but are not, rather they are a synagogue of Satan.

True Jews are all who believe Jesus, Yeshua. Know the difference, for the definition of Jew, according to Leah, is to praise God, Yahweh.

One need not attend a synagogue in order to fulfill this, rather to praise our Maker in spirit and truth. It also helps to know what all the words mean in the Word of God, so some study and meditation will be natural for the new person we have become.

 

[JayWalker]

it's not all about pleasing people

Yep, I just said that

You just keep on keeping on. If they will not listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

Yessir, that's the fact Jack!

Jesus must have felt further and further marginalized by friends and neighbors too

No, Jesus didn't live by His "feelings"

He had all the fruit of the Spirit in operation do He exercised self control and didn't worry about it.

I believe the early church was founded with deep antisemitic roots.

No, the Holy Spirit did not lead the Apostles to hate Jews and be racist towards them as all but one were Jews themselves.

 

[GaryA]

A few thoughts...

1) When I see certain people from the first few centuries referred to as "church founders" - "I just cringe" - this is a misnomer or even a lie - because, Jesus and the apostles were the church founders - and, no one who came after this is to be included in this designation - all of those other people you are referring to as "highly influential church founders" are not founders but [just] influencers instead.

2) ALL claims by the HRE/RCC to being the foundation of the Church (or, having any part in it) are illegitimate. It did not even exist when the [true] Church was founded.

3) The foundation of the Church started with Jews and then the Gentiles afterward. For the real-and-true Church, there never has been any antisemitic sentiments. If there be any church today that does - it is because of the influence of evildoers.

4) If someone says something that seems to be "against" Israel or Jews - yet it is the verifiable bona fide truth - it is not antisemitic. Something is 'antisemitic' when it is a broad generalization presupposed onto all Jews for no other reason than because they are a Jew.

5) Something alleged against an individual who happens to be a Jew is not antisemitic unless it is alleged simply because they are a Jew.

6) The world has gone completely nutso-crazy with the false idea that any imaginable "negative" thing that can be said against anyone who just happens to be a Jew must be considered to be antisemitic. This is total BS in the face of reason - the word 'antisemitic' is being used as a weapon.

7) A believer maintains intellectual integrity first-and-foremost by knowing and understanding the truth from a biblical perspective. Then, holding fast to that truth with the proper attitude put forth by that truth. The Jews were-and-are a special chosen people by/of God. However - today - right now - they are a people who need God/Jesus just like anyone else - they are not "set apart" from anyone/everyone else in this regard. They are not to be "held high" nor "held low" - they are the same as everyone else - just people who need the Lord like you and me.

 

[Michaelarc]

I am facing a dilemma. This is serious and controversial. I have no desire to troll; and hope my past conduct on CC makes that clear. Some readers may define this as trolling, while others will regard it as a legitimate discussion. The latter is my intent.

This is also very personal for me. I am guilty of mishandling this in the past and have paid dearly.

In writing a sermon or a Bible commentary, we may be led to consider the historical and cultural issues that faced the early church. Some of the highly influential church founders held racial and religious opinions that are highly inflammatory. The controversies have raged throughout history and appear to be even more volatile today.

How does a believer maintain intellectual integrity in this highly inflamed and hostile environment?

There are a few modern words that have been created to minimize the impact. These words are only marginally effective and remain risky. They also deliberately cloud the issue and conceal the truth. The “new words” feel dishonest. They also feel cowardly. They effectively kick the can even further down the road, failing for another generation to address the truth.

It appears that modern Christendom kicks the can and reacts vigorously to anyone who does not. Most of us go along to get along, while real growth delays.

Do we challenge or placate? The costs can be very high.

I won't be a hypocrite. I see many things I want to call out. I heard a pastor today say we were separated from the love of God in his message. Bible says "He loved us while we were still sinners". And other things. I'm under his care so what do I do? He owns this trailer park and for the truth idk what would happen. I see people claim Christ and turn around and say there life is about money. Jesus as said can't serve both God and mammon. That could get me kicked out and all my belongings picked apart by the people here and dumped of what remains. A real life situation. If your worried about a real life face to face thing but you still have your livelihood as no consequence I say do it

 

[GaryA]

I heard a pastor today say we were separated from the love of God in his message.

Did you show him these verses of scripture?

Romans 8:

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.