State of the Dead. what happens when you die. ???

[Nehemiah6]

Excellent post, TMS

How can it be "excellent" when he is presenting the false doctrine of Soul Sleep? I'm amazed that you are commending false doctrine.

When Christ spoke of Lazarus "sleeping", He really meant that Lazarus was dead as a door nail. However, Christ did not go further and explain that while the body of Lazarus was in its tomb, his soul and spirit were in Sheol/Hades. When Christ summoned Lazarus, He summoned his soul and spirit to be rejoined to his body and thus Lazarus was resurrected.

The souls and spirits of all the deceased saints are presently in Heaven (in the New Jerusalem) and at the Resurrection/Rapture they will be brought by Christ to join their resurrected, glorified bodies. Nobody is "sleeping" in the ground (other than hibernating rodents and other creatures, who will wake up in spring).

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It is not only attributed to a atheist, as soon as anyone leaves this realm under the sun it universal Alzheimer's. The former things will not be remembered or ever comes to mind .One having passed from death to eternal life will be raised to new spirit life on the last day the other who has not been given a new spirit that will never die... will not be raised ..

No spirit essence by which he could be raised.

The former things will not be remembered AFTER The Lord Creates a New Heavens & Earth. Final judgement precedes that.

None of this is true according to the New Testament. As already mentioned, those who focus on the afterlife as described in the Old Testament simply go into error, and that is obvious in your statements.

Let's take this erroneous statement and examine it in the light of New Testament truth: The former things will not be remembered or ever comes to mind.

When we turn to Revelation 20:12 this is what we read: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So were the former things brought to mind? Very definitely. And were they judged according to the former things? Very definitely. As you can see you simply neglected to study what the New Testament has to say about the afterlife (and beyond) and simply resorted to the OT. And that is why we have this false doctrine of Soul Sleep being promoted in this thread.

Nehemiah, I'm surprised at you. You can't just take bits of the Prophecies of The Lord and throw them out claiming that the New Testament has overridden them. That really is a false teaching. The Bible is an integrated whole. You are calling a piece of scripture an erroneous statement. Despite former clashes with you I thought better of you than that. New Testament scripture is in no way superior to the old. All scripture is God breathed.

That piece of scripture isn't relative to the judgement and before. You're using it out of context.
Isaiah 65 is describing the new creation. Well past the judgements.

Isaiah 65:17-19

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.


This prophecy is reinforced by

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.

So rather than the New Testament abrogating the Old, it verifies it. Old Testament scripture is NOT something to be "resorted" to. The Word of God does not pass away, not a jot or a tittle.

Why would you want an eternity where the old things are remembered?
The sin, the filth, the corruption, the pain, suffering & heartbreak?

No, he throws our sins away as far as east is from west.

Rev 21: 4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.


This is no erroneous statement. It's a promise you can bet your life on.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is no erroneous statement. It's a promise you can bet your life on.

What you have quoted is applicable only to THE SAINTS. But that is not how Garee presented this Scripture. He applied it to "anyone" indiscriminately, therefore he had to be reminded that the unsaved dead will have a different outcome.

It is not only attributed to a atheist, as soon as anyone leaves this realm under the sun it universal Alzheimer's. [/quote]

 

[Magenta]

​The reason those that say it is not a parable, is because Jesus uses a name in this story, where He does not use names in parables.

That may be one one of the reasons why, though there is no rule anywhere saying a parable cannot have named people in it. That is not to say that those who refuse to accept the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a parable do not act as if there is a rule written about it. I think they wrote the rule in their own imaginations.

 

[garee]

The former things will not be remembered AFTER The Lord Creates a New Heavens & Earth. Final judgement precedes that.

When a person breathes his last breath the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more before the new heavens and earth.

Imagine if the living lost memory of them when they breathed their last breath .Talk about a living hell .Where would we get our good memories from .That would be a lonely place. The place Christ offered on our behalf.

 

[Waggles]

I remember several decades ago I purchased a book written by a Catholic theologian
titled "The Moment Of Truth"
This treatise was about the moment of death whereby a soul would instantly experience their judgment and thus you and I would straight away be in heaven or hell or purgatory.
Instant judgment based on the works of our lives and determined at the moment of our death.

But none of that is consistent with the multitude of verses that clearly state that the dead sleep in darkness and forgetfulness and that both OT and NT saints look forward to a resurrection wherein they shall see their Redeemer and to be in his likeness.
Psalm 17; A Prayer of David (NKJV)
[SUP]15[/SUP] As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.
again consistent with the promises of the NT
[SUP]2[/SUP] Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Regardless of what scriptures we post people will argue for different interpretations of exactly the same verses. Each to their own.

But the author of the book got one thing right - there is a moment of truth that will supersede all theories and doctrines.
The point of the whole exercise is to die in righteous faith.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27

 

[Waggles]

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Timothy 4:

 

[MattforJesus]

All Old Testament saints resurrected to be with Jesus after His ascension,and all New Testament saints are with Jesus,for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

When all the saints are gathered unto Jesus He will come back with all the saints in glorified bodies,and fight the world and defeat them,and rule for 1000 years on earth,which the LORD shall be King over all the earth,and in that day there shall be one LORD,and His name one.

The dead that never heard the word of God to accept it,or not sufficiently to accept it,along with those that rejected the word of God,are sleeping,which Jesus said this when He resurrected a dead girl and said she is asleep.

After the millennial reign of Christ on earth,the dead shall be raised and go to the great throne judgment.

Those that heard the word of God sufficiently and rejected it holding them accountable will not be able to be with God.

Creation testifies of a God and His attributes,which one of them is love,that loves people for He provided food,and the means to make clothing,and shelter,so they are without excuse,which is the universal law that covers the whole history of mankind,love God,and love people,for that is what it really is about.

Those who never heard the word of God,or not sufficiently,will be judged on their belief in a higher power,and their love for this higher power,and love for people,and their conscience,and if they did abide by that sufficiently,and asked God to forgive them if anything is amiss for they do not have the word of God,or heard not enough,and could not have the Spirit as the saints,then they can dwell with God,but if they did not measure up then they will not dwell with God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

When a person breathes his last breath the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more before the new heavens and earth.

Hello garee,

You are just relying on Eccl.9:5, which doesn't say what you and many others think it says. And you would have to explain when the rich man and Lazarus who were said to die and were buried, how their spirits were found conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades. Or the souls/spirits of those under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal who are protesting to the Lord regarding those who killed them on the earth.

When we die, whether righteous or unrighteous, the spirit is conscious and aware, the righteous being in the presence of the Lord and the wicked being in Hades. At the time of the gathering of the church, the Lord will bring with him the spirits of those who will have been in his presence where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. At the end of the millennial period, those spirits who are in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected out and will stand for judgment at the great white throne.

Regarding this, we also have Jesus telling the man crucified next to him that he would be with him in paradise that very same day. Jesus was referring to the fact that when their bodies died, their spirits would depart and go down to that place of comfort/paradise where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were.

In coming to a right Biblical conclusion, you need to use all of the related scriptures. There are many more, but I have just mentioned a couple of them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...The point of the whole exercise is to die in righteous faith...

And yet you believe that your resurrection is NOT guaranteed. But if you got the Soul Sleep part wrong, then you also got the resurrection part wrong.

What Christians need to understand is that there are not two or three (or a dozen) different ways to look at the afterlife. Just as Purgatory is pure nonsense, Soul Sleep is totally erroneous and the New Testament shows us why.

 

[posthuman]

Man became a living soul when God breathed life into the physical body/elements of man.

And they went in unto Noah into the ark,
two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
(Genesis 7:15)​

 

[posthuman]

Man became a living soul when God breathed life into the physical body/elements of man.

as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead
(James 2:26)

​

how is the soul that does not have the knowledge of Christ that is through the Spirit of life?

this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(John 17:3)

​

He is life and truth and the way and the light - separation from Him is separation from all these things.

 

[Magenta]

And they went in unto Noah into the ark,

two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
(Genesis 7:15)​

Yes, I am one of those who say that animals are living souls
​

 

[Magenta]

as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead
(James 2:26)

​

how is the soul that does not have the knowledge of Christ that is through the Spirit of life?

this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(John 17:3)

​

He is life and truth and the way and the light - separation from Him is separation from all these things.

I cannot make out the point you are trying to make.

Man became a living soul when God breathed into him the breath of life. Yes?

 

[Waggles]

Yes, I am one of those who say that animals are living souls

Yes that is scriptural.
All living things from bacteria to animals to human beings are dependent on the
Spirit of God for their living animation. The Creation is spiritual.

Humans are different from animals in that we are moral and have free will and we have spiritual consciousness to seek God and have a relationship with him. Lesser creatures were not made for this.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD[SUP]H3068[/SUP] God[SUP]H430[/SUP] formed[SUP]H3335 (H853)[/SUP] man[SUP]H120[/SUP] of the dust[SUP]H6083[/SUP] of[SUP]H4480[/SUP] the ground,[SUP]H127[/SUP] and breathed[SUP]H5301[/SUP] into his nostrils[SUP]H639[/SUP] the breath[SUP]H5397[/SUP] of life;[SUP]H2416[/SUP] and man[SUP]H120[/SUP] became[SUP]H1961[/SUP] a living[SUP]H2416[/SUP] soul.[SUP]H5315


[/SUP]H5315 נפשׁ nephesh from H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

 

[TMS]

Hello garee,

You are just relying on Eccl.9:5, which doesn't say what you and many others think it says. And you would have to explain when the rich man and Lazarus who were said to die and were buried, how their spirits were found conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades. Or the souls/spirits of those under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal who are protesting to the Lord regarding those who killed them on the earth.

When we die, whether righteous or unrighteous, the spirit is conscious and aware, the righteous being in the presence of the Lord and the wicked being in Hades. At the time of the gathering of the church, the Lord will bring with him the spirits of those who will have been in his presence where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. At the end of the millennial period, those spirits who are in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected out and will stand for judgment at the great white throne.

Regarding this, we also have Jesus telling the man crucified next to him that he would be with him in paradise that very same day. Jesus was referring to the fact that when their bodies died, their spirits would depart and go down to that place of comfort/paradise where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were.

In coming to a right Biblical conclusion, you need to use all of the related scriptures. There are many more, but I have just mentioned a couple of them.

With the weight of evidence already given you keep going back to the two or 3 verses in the new testament that can be shown to be interpreted differently to the way you state. The Bible doesn't contradict itself and either you show me that all the verses I've given are wrongly interpreted or understand that the verses you are giving do not prove that we go straight to heaven or hell.
In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells a parable that has led to a lot of controversy. Most scenes in the parable contradict the teachings of Scriptures, indicating that Jesus was telling the story to convey a larger truth.
Throughout history, God had named the Israelite people His own. The nation had been highly favored by God as His children, and as the recipients of His truth.
The Jews were called to use the truth God gave them to lead other nations to God. For this reason, God placed them at the crossroads between the great nations and trade routes of that time.
However, instead of fulfilling their mission, the Jews had become self-centered, claiming salvation only for themselves. While priding themselves in their exclusivity, they had nevertheless embraced heathen teachings, including lies regarding the afterlife, but always with the provision that their heritage would get them into heaven.
In His story about Lazarus the beggar, Jesus speaks against the hypocrisy of these views.he story begins with a wounded beggar named Lazarus. He lay everyday at the gate of a rich man, who was too busy dressing himself in purple robes and white linen to show Lazarus any pity.
One day, both men died. Lazarus was taken to heaven where he sat next to Abraham. The rich man, however, was sent to hell where he remained in torment.
Seeing Lazarus in heaven, and still believing himself to be better than the beggar, the rich man concocted a plan. He told Abraham to send Lazarus down to give him a drink.
When Abraham said no, the rich man begged him to at least send Lazarus to warn his family about the torments of hell. But Abraham simply said, “You’ve had the prophets to warn you. Why would your family listen to Lazarus when they ignored the messengers God already sent?”
Jesus told this story as a sharp rebuke to the Jewish religious leaders. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation, and the poor man represents the Gentiles.
The rich man had the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty), and the means to attaining righteousness (white linen). But as the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom."
Jesus was saying that personal status does not guarantee salvation. He was telling the Jews that they could only find salvation in God’s grace, not their own works or lineage. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father (John 8:39), but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man.
The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and that Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted. Only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ can attain His blessings.
Through this story, Jesus was also revealing to the disciples their new task: to break tradition and preach the Gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike.
As each scene unfolds in the parable, it conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of taking this parable literally in order to support the doctrine of hell does great injustice to the intent of the story, and causes us to miss the deeper message it holds.
According to the Bible, death is a state of unconscious sleep. This does not mean that there is no record in heaven of the sleeping saints. God knows our being, our very nature, and when He calls forth the sleeping saints, they rise with imperishable bodies and the characters that they have formed under His guidance.
The Biblical record of death, far from being disturbing, is comforting. Our ancestors are not watching our every mistake and feeling the pain of our wrong choices. They are blissfully unaware of unfolding events as they sleep until the day of the resurrection. If we are strengthened by these Biblical truths, the deceptive power of false teachings and miracles can have no hold over us. We will be better prepared to stand in the last days.


 

[TMS]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is not proof and has been explained many times why.
There was no comers in the original Greek and the sentence structure is determined where you put the comer.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus did not Go to heaven that day. Jesus did not assent for many days, so If Jesus said you shall be with me in paradise today He was lying.

 

[Demi777]

Dont worry about whats gonna happen when u die. Ur gonna figure it out soon enough

 

[Ahwatukee]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is not proof and has been explained many times why.
There was no comers in the original Greek and the sentence structure is determined where you put the comer.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus did not Go to heaven that day. Jesus did not assent for many days, so If Jesus said you shall be with me in paradise today He was lying.

The fact remains that you are just repeating what this false teaching claims, i.e. that the comma is in the wrong place. None of the major translations has the comma after the word "today." Why would Jesus need to tell the man what day he was telling him this information?

I agree with you in that, Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His spirit along with the man crucified with him went down into that same place where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. Therefore, when Jesus said, "today you will be with me in paradise," he was referring to their spirits going down into Sheol/Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was place of comfort/paradise.

 

[preacher4truth]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is not proof and has been explained many times why.

Oh, but proof it is.

There was no comers in the original Greek and the sentence structure is determined where you put the comer.

What in the world is a "comer?" Surely you mean comma, correct?

So, you get to take the liberty and adjust the sentence structure and/or sense of the text? Please share with us any Greek Scholar who has done this, and/or, any NT commentator who makes the verse as senseless as you have.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus did not Go to heaven that day. Jesus did not assent for many days, so If Jesus said you shall be with me in paradise today He was lying.

Perhaps, and it is true, there are some things you do not understand about paradise, his being there that day, and about the departure of the thief's soul into that paradise on that day? Maybe you're lying? Surely it was not Christ lying. It appears it is your understanding that is amiss.

Did you feel the need to commit sacrilege on his name simply to "reinforce" your error? It doesn't lend you any validity, that's for sure. That appears to be taking his name in vain simply for your own sake.

Now, please fetch some substantiation to your claims.