The 144,000 named in Revelation

[dcontroversal]

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

 

[Dino246]

I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.
...

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

...
144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

It seems highly improbably that there were 144,000 males under the age of 3 in all Judea at that time, let alone Bethlehem and vicinity...

Matthew 2:16: Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

 

[Hevosmies]

Lets say you are right on the identification.

What about this:

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Clearly this is happening in the future, in the tribulation period

If this was during 1st century, what happened to the sea trees or earth back then?

You said you arent in this thread to argue, im not writing this to start a debate, I will just post this to ask a question and then leave it at that

 

[Locutus]

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

Chapter and verse?

 

[dcontroversal]

It seems highly improbably that there were 144,000 males under the age of 3 in all Judea at that time, let alone Bethlehem and vicinity...

Matthew 2:16: Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA hilarious.........you should study more and be honest....when they came out of Egypt they had 600000 men over 20....and it also states clearly in ALL the coasts of Israel....it is HIGHLY probably they had 144,000 males under the age of 2 based upon God's blessings upon Israel!!

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

 

[dcontroversal]

Lets say you are right on the identification.

What about this:

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Clearly this is happening in the future, in the tribulation period

If this was during 1st century, what happened to the sea trees or earth back then?

You said you arent in this thread to argue, im not writing this to start a debate, I will just post this to ask a question and then leave it at that

Exactly....and LOOK what the ANGEL who seals DOES.....ASCENDS while TELLING the ANGEL that is DESCENDING to the EARTH NOT to DO ANYTHING UNTIL HE SEALS them......same word used to describe CHRIST ASCENDING

 

[dcontroversal]

Chapter and verse?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

@Locutus THANKS for actually liking a biblical response I gave unto you instead of arguing it with me.......a first I believe......

 

[Locutus]

First time I seen anything worth thanking

 

[dcontroversal]

First time I seen anything worth thanking

There is yet hope with you HAH

 

[Hevosmies]

Exactly....and LOOK what the ANGEL who seals DOES.....ASCENDS while TELLING the ANGEL that is DESCENDING to the EARTH NOT to DO ANYTHING UNTIL HE SEALS them......same word used to describe CHRIST ASCENDING

So are you saying that the angel seals these people, takes them to heaven. And then later on the tribulation begins? Thats viable.

This is an interesting topic to say the least.
Eschatology is so interesting, yet MOST CHURCHES today avoid it like the plague and dont ever speak about it.

 

[dcontroversal]

So are you saying that the angel seals these people, takes them to heaven. And then later on the tribulation begins? Thats viable.

This is an interesting topic to say the least.
Eschatology is so interesting, yet MOST CHURCHES today avoid it like the plague and dont ever speak about it.

Not me I love it.......but how many miss the fact that the Angel that SEALS them is ASCENDING to do that while telling the ANGEL descending to the EARTH to not hurt anything until they have been sealed.....

Words are everything and ONE word can make or break any and all ideals.......

You know.....for every 1 verse that speaks to the 1st coming of Christ there are 8 that deal with his Second coming and yet it is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied subjects of the bible

 

[GraceAndTruth]

144,000 would be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes

I've never seen an explanation of that figure that wasn't opinion, so it is what it is and maybe best to not go beyond what is written in scripture.

Eschatology is the university level of bible study.

 

[dcontroversal]

144,000 would be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes

I've never seen an explanation of that figure that wasn't opinion, so it is what it is and maybe best to not go beyond what is written in scripture.

Eschatology is the university level of bible study.

AND I have never seen anyone address the CHARACTERISTICS of the 144,000 given in chapter 14 while most peddle some farce and fantasy land imaginary view that is not supported in Scripture.....instead of mouthing, why not re-read the OP, pay attention to the 11 characteristics LISTED under inspiration about this GROUP and be honest with the facts....

You know something....and this is for ALL who read this....IF we cannot take the bible, the facts listed under inspiration and come to a solid understanding of what the word actually means, then we ALL need to chunk it in the trash.....I for one am sick of naysayers that reject sound conclusions based UPON the listed facts.....

A spade WILL ALWAYS BE A SPADE regardless of ANY and ALL that try to make it a diamond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

AND I have never seen anyone address the CHARACTERISTICS of the 144,000 given in chapter 14 while most peddle some farce and fantasy land imaginary view that is not supported in Scripture.....instead of mouthing, why not re-read the OP, pay attention to the 11 characteristics LISTED under inspiration about this GROUP and be honest with the facts....

You know something....and this is for ALL who read this....IF we cannot take the bible, the facts listed under inspiration and come to a solid understanding of what the word actually means, then we ALL need to chunk it in the trash.....I for one am sick of naysayers that reject sound conclusions based UPON the listed facts.....

A spade WILL ALWAYS BE A SPADE regardless of ANY and ALL that try to make it a diamond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Were you scolding me for what I said there? I made no judgement on your view of the 144,000.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

AND I have never seen anyone address the CHARACTERISTICS of the 144,000 given in chapter 14 while most peddle some farce and fantasy land imaginary view that is not supported in Scripture.....instead of mouthing, why not re-read the OP, pay attention to the 11 characteristics LISTED under inspiration about this GROUP and be honest with the facts....

You know something....and this is for ALL who read this....IF we cannot take the bible, the facts listed under inspiration and come to a solid understanding of what the word actually means, then we ALL need to chunk it in the trash.....I for one am sick of naysayers that reject sound conclusions based UPON the listed facts.....

A spade WILL ALWAYS BE A SPADE regardless of ANY and ALL that try to make it a diamond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems your posts are becoming very harsh, ....like choosing words that will deliberately insult (peddle some farce etc)....I know that YOU know that you can't beat truth into anyone. I think we are in agreement on most posts, so I'm not judging a brother, I am just asking you to consider. please don't hurt me.

 

[Deade]

AND I have never seen anyone address the CHARACTERISTICS of the 144,000 given in chapter 14 while most peddle some farce and fantasy land imaginary view that is not supported in Scripture.....instead of mouthing, why not re-read the OP, pay attention to the 11 characteristics LISTED under inspiration about this GROUP and be honest with the facts....

You know something....and this is for ALL who read this....IF we cannot take the bible, the facts listed under inspiration and come to a solid understanding of what the word actually means, then we ALL need to chunk it in the trash.....I for one am sick of naysayers that reject sound conclusions based UPON the listed facts.....

A spade WILL ALWAYS BE A SPADE regardless of ANY and ALL that try to make it a diamond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dcon, you need to get off your high horse and quit condemning people that don't see scripture your way. All GraceAndTruth said was: what is not scripture, is just opinion. You need to handle opposition better.

Like Hevosmies said it look like something in the future. Dino said it's not likely that Herod killed 144,000 infants in the vicinity of Bethlehem. I agree with them both. I think you are off course on this one. Your conclusions do not constitute facts.

 

[Deade]

WHO ARE THE 144,000​

The 144,000 of Israel Sealed​

Rev. 7:1-4 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation we are told about 144,000 people. This concerns a physical, living group of people. They will be of the bloodline of their respective Israelite tribes. We are given detailed explanation in Rev. chapter 14: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:1-4).

These are children or young adults, because they are virgins. It wouldn’t make sense to stop the seals unless God were saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These are younger people that God will allowed to start the millennial rule. They seem to have the Holy Spirit. That makes them exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. They are to be planted into their tribes’ original lands for the start of the millennial rule. Remember, Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone.

We see their inheritance being defined for a future time: "Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher. And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali. And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben. And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah. And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it" (Ezekiel 48:1-8). God then explains the land set aside for the priests (sons of Zadok) in verses 9-22.

Next, it lists the rest of the tribes’ inheritance: "As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion. And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion. And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion. And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion. And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion. And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea. This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God. And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures" (Ezekiel 48:23-30). The time reference for this, is after the healing waters flow from God's temple in Jerusalem (see Ezekiel chapter 47). This, of course, is after the Day of the Lord and Jesus’ return. With all the detail, it must be very important to God for us to get this right.

 

[Locutus]

The error I see in positing the 144k beyond the 1st century is John calling them the first fruits.

We know that there are references to believers being called first fruits during the apostles ministry:

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Cor 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James writing to the 12 tribes and calling them first fruits:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We know John in the revelation states the 144k are from the 12 tribes, regardless of the descriptives he gives them it makes more sense to understand them as those James is writing to and about.

The baby 144k makes little sense to me.

 

[JaumeJ]

Unless someone is given by our Father to say and be true saying thus says our Father, I am not allowed by faith to interpret Daniel or Revelation because the angel told Daniel when it is time people would understand, that is, he told Daniel to write down the prophesy and put it in a book for it is for another generation to understand……..When it is truly begun, we will all know.