The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience ! 2

And so because they [whom Christ died for] stand before God with His Faithfulness and Righteousness and Obedience imputed to them, they are commensurately given His Faith, a portion of His own Faith [in New Birth] is given them by Christ;thats what Paul means that he lives by the faith of the Son of God, who Loved him and gave Himself for him Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In other words, the Life of Faith that Paul now Lives was given to him by the Son of God who now lives in him. For he as well as all for whom Christ died were in Him representatively when He as their substitute and Surety was Crucified !

The Faith believers have to believe on Christ comes from Christ to them, He is the Author and Finisher of it. Now understand this, as their Saviour and Head He gives each member of His Body, He gives each of them an alloted portion of Faith Rom 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you [Believers/ Christ's Body], not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Notice here, faith has been dealt to every man of the body of Christ. The word dealt ,greek word merizō:


to divide

a) to separate into parts, cut into pieces

1) to divide into parties, i.e. be split into factions

b) to distribute

1) a thing among people

2) bestow, impart

God imparts to every man of the Body of Christ a measure , greek word metron:

measure, an instrument for measuring

a) a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid

b) a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod

c) proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment

2) determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit

a) the required measure, the due, fit, measure

a determined amount of Faith

Faith has been assigned to each or every member of His Body, though it varies in degree's as fruit is variable Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

However each member of Christ's Body who are made Righteous or Just by Christ's Faithfulness shall receive from Him Faith to believe in Him !

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In this same context, Jesus also says there are sheep that are "His" (v.14), and "other sheep of His" (v.16) and even "those who are not His sheep" (v.26)

So in the context of "the" sheep, there are sheep that are His (saved Jews), other sheep of His (saved Gentiles) and "those not His sheep" (unbelievers).

Therefore, it should be quite obvious that "the sheep" refers to everyone.

That's some sleight of hand with the verses

No, that's just your attempt to try to make it look so. What I did was note the categories of sheep in the text. No "sleight of hand". Jus the actual text.

But, go ahead and prove that I performed your so-called "sleight of hand".

... If we post the chapter's verses in order, it clearly says the Messiah lays down His life for His sheep, but not for those who are not His sheep.

I would love to see that verse.

John 10:15-16; 25-28
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Go back and read the bolded words in v.15. It very plainly says "THE sheep", yet you are performing "sleight of hand" by claiming:

"it clearly says the Messiah lays down His life for His sheep"

So, there it is, in black and white, the evidence that you don't read carefully. The verse says THE sheep. No doubt about it.

I don't care about Calvin but what the scriptures say.

You just demonstrated you don't read the Bible carefully, by your ERROR with John 10:15. Don't you know the difference between the words "the" and "My"?

Nothing wrong with preaching the gospel to every creature.

If Christ didn't die for everyone, there is NO REASON to do so. That is the meaning of 1 Tim 2:3-6.

The Almighty seeks His harvest. The Messiah died for those who believe in Him.

Since you have demonstrated your sloppy reading of a verse, it is no surprise to me that you have done the very same thing to all the verses I quoted that PROVE that Christ died for everyone.

It doesn't say "everyone" without qualification, but "everyone WHO believes". The Messiah didn't die for those who don't believe. They are not His sheep (John 10:26).

Just look at all the verses I quoted. There were NO QUALIFICATIONS added to any of the verses, which PROVE that He DID die for eveyrone.

Indeed, every knee shall bow, both friend and foe. This will be fulfilled at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Why have you forgotten the Bema? Why wouldn't that judgment count as well?

I don't support Calvinism.

This claim is meaningless, since you are on the SAME PAGE.

You're employing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Sounds logical, but it's not the context.

Truly the Son of man came to save the lost, but Romans 11:5-7 says there is a remnant of Israel who wasn't "blinded" to the truth like the rest of Israel. Paul is one such person, as well as the Apostles. So they wouldn't be considered "lost". Calvinism has this point correct, generally speaking (even though they may be incorrect in "who" the elect actually is).

He MAY have mercy on them all. It's up to them.

If Christ didn't die for someone, it CANNOT be "up to them". There is NO HOPE for anyone He didn't die for.

Why haven't you thought through your theology?

The only savable people are those Christ paid the sin debt. Those who didn't have their sin debt paid CANNOT BE SAVED.

That means the gospel is meaningless to them, and irrelevant to them.

Nice theology there.

 

[Yahshua]

FreeGrace2 said:
In this same context, Jesus also says there are sheep that are "His" (v.14), and "other sheep of His" (v.16) and even "those who are not His sheep" (v.26)

So in the context of "the" sheep, there are sheep that are His (saved Jews), other sheep of His (saved Gentiles) and "those not His sheep" (unbelievers).

Therefore, it should be quite obvious that "the sheep" refers to everyone.

No, that's just your attempt to try to make it look so. What I did was note the categories of sheep in the text. No "sleight of hand". Jus the actual text.

But, go ahead and prove that I performed your so-called "sleight of hand".


I would love to see that verse.


Go back and read the bolded words in v.15. It very plainly says "THE sheep", yet you are performing "sleight of hand" by claiming:

"it clearly says the Messiah lays down His life for His sheep"

So, there it is, in black and white, the evidence that you don't read carefully. The verse says THE sheep. No doubt about it.


You just demonstrated you don't read the Bible carefully, by your ERROR with John 10:15. Don't you know the difference between the words "the" and "My"?


If Christ didn't die for everyone, there is NO REASON to do so. That is the meaning of 1 Tim 2:3-6.


Since you have demonstrated your sloppy reading of a verse, it is no surprise to me that you have done the very same thing to all the verses I quoted that PROVE that Christ died for everyone.


Just look at all the verses I quoted. There were NO QUALIFICATIONS added to any of the verses, which PROVE that He DID die for eveyrone.


Why have you forgotten the Bema? Why wouldn't that judgment count as well?


This claim is meaningless, since you are on the SAME PAGE.

You're employing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Sounds logical, but it's not the context.

Truly the Son of man came to save the lost, but Romans 11:5-7 says there is a remnant of Israel who wasn't "blinded" to the truth like the rest of Israel. Paul is one such person, as well as the Apostles. So they wouldn't be considered "lost". Calvinism has this point correct, generally speaking (even though they may be incorrect in "who" the elect actually is).


If Christ didn't die for someone, it CANNOT be "up to them". There is NO HOPE for anyone He didn't die for.

Why haven't you thought through your theology?

The only savable people are those Christ paid the sin debt. Those who didn't have their sin debt paid CANNOT BE SAVED.

That means the gospel is meaningless to them, and irrelevant to them.

Nice theology there.

...but you've built your entire theology on two translated words - articles - while the context of the chapter is Messiah distinguishing between those who are His sheep (and what he does for them) and those who are not His sheep.


John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

- Definite article. THE door into THE sheepfold. Messiah is talking about a specific door for specific sheep...His.

- He says those who do not use the door are not sheep or shepherds, but thieves and robbers.


John 10:2-4
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

- Notice that "His own sheep" are called THE sheep. Definite article. He's only speaking about His specific sheep when He says THE sheep. This is the context established.

- They, THE sheep, know His voice and follow Him


John 10:7-9
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

- THE sheep = His sheep. And He is the door for them

- IFF any man enter into Him, they are "THE sheep" (His sheep) and shall be saved.

- It should not need to be said that the inverse is also true but it was said in verse 1 and 8: those who do not enter into Him (the door) are not "The sheep" or shepherds but are thieves and robbers.

- In this parable the only ones labeled "THE sheep" are men who follow Messiah; His sheep. There are no other sheep in His parable but His sheep, whether His speaking of one fold or another. All others are enemies.


John 10:10-11
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

- They, THE sheep, the SAME sheep, are His sheep. The context is carried all the way through from verse 1

- The Messiah gives His life for THE sheep, His sheep; The only sheep mentioned up to this point.


John 10:12-15
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

- "The sheep" are Messiah's sheep. He lays down His life for them.

- Only those who are known by Him and who know Him are "The Sheep."


John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

- This is the only mention of other sheep, but they are still His because they also hear His voice.

- Those who do not hear His voice are not His sheep; are not called "THE Sheep". He gives His life for His sheep.


John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

- There are those who are not His sheep, "THE sheep". They do not hear His voice

- Messiah only gives His sheep eternal life.

----

Is there a reason why you haven't commented on the verses I posted showing that there are vessels made specifically for The Almighty's wrath & destruction?

I noticed they were missing from your reply. As if reading John chapter 10 wasn't sufficient enough, can you explain those passages?

 

[Laura798]

This thread is concerning atonement, "the covering" of one's life by Messiah's blood. The offer is made to any and all to be covered. But no one is covered unless and until they accept the offer. The atonement has not happened for the whole world because it's a matter of individuals accepting the offer. They must accept the offer to be covered. No covering for them exists if they refuse the accept the offer.

Here, let's go back to your examples. A fleet of cars and ships can appear all of different sizes and shapes offering salvation from the elements...but if you dont accept the offer to enter into one of them you will still suffer and die from exposure because you are not covered by one of those roofs or cabins. The offer to save you still abounds, but there was no covering for you because you didn't accept it and so there was no salvation for you from the elements, by your own choice.

If Noah and his family never entered into the ark they would've died in the flood, even though the Almighty had them build the ark specifically to save them.

The Israelites were instructed to smear lambs blood on their door posts and to remain inside as death passed over Egypt...but if any Israelites did not follow the instructions and instead went outside, they still would've died, even though their salvation was assured.

"Many are called...few are chosen."



Well not necessarily new... Recall that there are many things that have been altered.

Grace is not unmerited favor or mercy or the world's modern definition of the word grace. God's mercy is called mercy. His unmerited favor is called favor.

Meanwhile, His grace is the divine strength from the Almighty that's inside the believer (because the Holy Spirit is inside the believer). So it's more so spiritual muscle, rather than electricity as far as imagery (see the verses below as to why I say this).

It is through this divine empowerment that one lives Messiah's life in their body...which can only happen through faith. Faith activates the Almighty's power in the believer.

"I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."

"...for my grace is made perfect through weakness."

"Grow in the grace and the knowledge of our lord and savior Jesus Christ."

"[Grace] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

No one receives this divine strength unless and until they first believe in Messiah, so faith can't be a response. Faith must come first. It is through faith that we receive the strength to live righteously. We do however respond to His love for us (John 3:16)...that's what gets the ball rolling.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

...Unfortunately, some will not respond to His love and thus will never be covered.

Hi Joshua--your last sentence you said: "some won't respond then never be covered"-- I agree a person who doesn't respond to the gift of course can't be covered--this is the gospel 101. However, I wouldn't say never as many people ignore for years before they respond.

My main point of contention that you really haven't addressed is this: "but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."

that doesn't make sense since according to scripture, Christ died for the whole world. And as you said, atonement and salvation are two different things. Again, the gospel 101.

I felt my analogies should've sufficed, but apparently they didn't. However, oddly you repeated them with your own analogy--but with pretty much the same meaning as I was attempting to convey.

John 3:16 says Christ died for the whole world /whosoever and we should believe it--will the whole world be saved? Of course not. Only those who accept the gift will be saved. If 100 Coats are offered to 100 homeless and only 50 accept the coats then the other 50 are left out in the cold--the coats were offered to ALL 100, but some chose not to receive them.

And not at all sure what you are saying here:

Meanwhile, His grace is the divine strength from the Almighty that's inside the believer (because the Holy Spirit is inside the believer). So it's more so spiritual muscle, rather than electricity as far as imagery (see the verses below as to why I say this).

My analogy had to do with the unbeliever, not the believer--not sure what the point is your making here.God's grace is coming from God himself--we aren't believers before we receive God's grace----grace is something God is extending and offering to us.

 

[Yahshua]

Hi Joshua--your last sentence you said: "some won't respond then never be covered"-- I agree a person who doesn't respond to the gift of course can't be covered--this is the gospel 101. However, I wouldn't say never as many people ignore for years before they respond.

My main point of contention that you really haven't addressed is this: "but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."

that doesn't make sense since according to scripture, Christ died for the whole world. And as you said, atonement and salvation are two different things. Again, the gospel 101.

I felt my analogies should've sufficed, but apparently they didn't. However, oddly you repeated them with your own analogy--but with pretty much the same meaning as I was attempting to convey.

John 3:16 says Christ died for the whole world /whosoever and we should believe it--will the whole world be saved? Of course not. Only those who accept the gift will be saved. If 100 Coats are offered to 100 homeless and only 50 accept the coats then the other 50 are left out in the cold--the coats were offered to ALL 100, but some chose not to receive them.

And not at all sure what you are saying here:

Meanwhile, His grace is the divine strength from the Almighty that's inside the believer (because the Holy Spirit is inside the believer). So it's more so spiritual muscle, rather than electricity as far as imagery (see the verses below as to why I say this).

My analogy had to do with the unbeliever, not the believer--not sure what the point is your making here.God's grace is coming from God himself--we aren't believers before we receive God's grace----grace is something God is extending and offering to us.

Your last sentence; you're defining mercy and/or unmerited favor but calling it God's grace. This is why I posted how scripture defines grace vs how most have been taught to understand it. Scripture's definition of grace is divine strength. Unbelievers do not receive the gift of God's divine strength. It is a gift only to believers in Messiah.

The only savable people are those Christ paid the sin debt. Those who didn't have their sin debt paid CANNOT BE SAVED.

^ I think this portion that FreeGrace mentions is where the disagreement with me lies with you also, Laura. So I'll answer together. But I'm on my phone right now so give me some to get to my computer and I'll give a full reply to you Laura, but below is a quick response.

----

Salvation is the result of accepting the offer. It isn't the offer itself.

Atonement (The covering) is the result of accepting the offer. It isn't the offer itself.

One doesn't have their debt paid for first, in order to have the opportunity to be saved second. To be saved is to have one's debt paid for. There are those who will not have their debt paid for at the end of days, we know this because Revelation describes those who are destroyed in the lake of fire. Those people NEVER received the covering offered by Messiah and so were still in condemnation. This is what I meant when I said some will never be covered because of unbelief in Messiah.

 

[Laura798]

Your last sentence; you're defining mercy and/or unmerited favor but calling it God's grace. This is why I posted how scripture defines grace vs how most have been taught to understand it. Scripture's definition of grace is divine strength. Unbelievers do not receive the gift of God's divine strength. It is a gift only to believers in Messiah.



^ I think this portion that FreeGrace mentions is where the disagreement with me lies with you also, Laura. So I'll answer together. But I'm on my phone right now so give me some to get to my computer and I'll give a full reply to you Laura, but below is a quick response.

----

Salvation is the result of accepting the offer. It isn't the offer itself.

Atonement (The covering) is the result of accepting the offer. It isn't the offer itself.

One doesn't have their debt paid for first, in order to have the opportunity to be saved second. To be saved is to have one's debt paid for. There are those who will not have their debt paid for at the end of days, we know this because Revelation describes those who are destroyed in the lake of fire. Those people NEVER received the covering offered by Messiah and so were still in condemnation. This is what I meant when I said some will never be covered because of unbelief in Messiah.

Again, that is gospel 101--we all know and i've said in a variety of ways, Salvation is the gift, not the offer of the gift.

It's like saying well, before we can butter the bread we must first have bread to butter.

That still doesn't explain you saying Christ died only for those who have faith in Him--clearly that is NOT what John 3:16 says.

 

[Yahshua]

1) God's mercy = The offer of salvation made free to all. All means all.

2) God's salvation = The Messiah's payment for the wage of sin (i.e. His death); covering only the one who believes in Him, sparing them from the fire.

3) God's grace = The gift divine empowerment given to the believer to live righteously as a saved/justified person in this present world.

My main point of contention that you really haven't addressed is this: "but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."

that doesn't make sense since according to scripture, Christ died for the whole world. And as you said, atonement and salvation are two different things. Again, the gospel 101.

That still doesn't explain you saying Christ died only for those who have faith in Him--clearly that is NOT what John 3:16 says.

Remember that the Messiah is himself preaching this to Nicodemus.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...


The passage doesn't say "For God so loved the world that He sacrificed His only begotten Son", we know that's a critical part in this process, but we're reading that into the passage when it says His Son was OFFERED to the whole world.

1) God's mercy = The offer of salvation made free to all. All means all.


----


John 3:16
...that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life...


Only the ones who believe in Him receive everlasting life. And as He explains in John 10:1-29, Him laying down His life is linked to The sheep (His sheep) receiving eternal life. His sheep follow Him. THEY shall be saved. He gives THEM eternal life. One must become "His sheep", for His life is only laid down for His sheep.

2) God's salvation = The Messiah's payment for the wage of sin (i.e. His death); covering only the one who believes in Him, sparing them from the fire.


----


The New Covenant promise is to the houses of Israel. No one else.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


----


The Messiah was sent to save His sheep; His people.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”


----


The offer - The Almighty's mercy - extends to all people to become grafted into the root of Israel...because Messiah was sent to save His people, Israel.


Romans 11:11, 15, 17, 20, 25, 26, 27, 30-32 (partial)
11...through [Jews'] fall salvation comes unto the Gentiles...15 For if the casting away of [Jews] be the reconciling of the world...17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree...20 because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith...25 blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in...26 And so all Israel shall be saved

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Isaiah 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


Israel is the world to come that the Almighty is saving.

----


Once grafted into the root. The believer receives all the gifts that were promised, to live in this world (but not of this world) while we awaiting for the world to come.


Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.

12 It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present world, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ


3) God's grace = The gift divine empowerment given to the believer to live righteously as a saved/justified person in this present world.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

- Definite article. THE door into THE sheepfold. Messiah is talking about a specific door for specific sheep...His.

In vss 1-2 of John 10, Jesus is not speaking of sheep ... Jesus is speaking of shepherds. The shepherds who do not enter through the door of the sheepfold are thieves and robbers (those who do not speak God's Word accurately and whose sole purpose is to scatter the sheep ... lead them astray):

John 10:

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

- They, THE sheep, the SAME sheep, are His sheep. The context is carried all the way through from verse 1

- The Messiah gives His life for THE sheep, His sheep; The only sheep mentioned up to this point.

since (according to you) they already have life, and since (according to you) "They, THE sheep, know His voice and follow Him" and " "THE sheep" are men who follow Messiah; His sheep" there is no need for this warning concerning the thief.

Clearly this warning is to alert sheep to not follow the thief who enters by some other way than the door to the sheepfold. Since we know from John 10:5 that those who are His sheep will not follow another shepherd, do you think there is any chance the warning in John 10:10 applies to those who are not yet His sheep?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My analogy had to do with the unbeliever, not the believer--not sure what the point is your making here.God's grace is coming from God himself--we aren't believers before we receive God's grace----grace is something God is extending and offering to us.

Your last sentence; you're defining mercy and/or unmerited favor but calling it God's grace.

Grace:

favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").​

​

"grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.​

​

​

Mercy:

is the outward manifestation of pity; it assumes need on the part of him who receives it, and resources adequate to meet the need on the part of him who shows it. It is used ​

​

(a) of God, who is rich in mercy, Eph 2:4, and who has provided salvation for all men, Tts 3:5, for Jews, Luk 1:72, and Gentiles, Rom 15:9. He is merciful to those who fear him, Luk 1:50, for they also are compassed with infirmity, and He alone can succor them. Hence they are to pray boldly for mercy, Hbr 4:16, and if for themselves, it is seemly that they should ask for mercy for one another, Gal 6:16; 1Ti 1:2. When God brings His salvation to its issue at the Coming of Christ, His people will obtain His mercy, 2Ti 1:16; Jud 1:21;​

​

(b) of men; for since God is merciful to them, He would have them show mercy to one another, Mat 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; Luk 10:37; Jam 2:13.​

​

"Wherever the words mercy and peace are found together they occur in that order, except in Gal 6:16. Mercy is the act of God, peace is the resulting experience in the heart of man. Grace describes God's attitude toward the law-breaker and the rebel; mercy is His attitude toward those who are in distress."*
[* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 340, 341.]​

​

 

[Yahshua]

since (according to you) they already have life

According to the Messiah's words, they shall have. I posted the passage and then repeated it in bullet form.

and since (according to you) "They, THE sheep, know His voice and follow Him" and " "THE sheep" are men who follow Messiah; His sheep"

According to the Messiah's words. I literally repeated what He said.

...there is no need for this warning concerning the thief.

Clearly this warning is to alert sheep to not follow the thief who enters by some other way than the door to the sheepfold. Since we know from John 10:5 that those who are His sheep will not follow another shepherd, do you think there is any chance the warning in John 10:10 applies to those who are not yet His sheep?

It's not a warning at all. He's not talking to His sheep or alerting them of anything. He's talking to the corrupt Pharisees and religious leaders, stating a fact about His followers vs. those who are not His followers, through a parable. Fact: His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Fact: He lays down His life for His sheep. Fact: they shall have eternal life. Fact: thieves steal from the sheep, kill and destroy them, and scatter them.

The religious leaders didn't like what He was saying calling Him "mad" and "possessed".

Grace:
favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them")."grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Ok, but can you share any scripture that supports this definition of grace, the way Hogg and Vine have verses to support their definition of mercy? Something you can point me to? Otherwise, what you've defined here is God's unmerited favor, which is called "favor".

If grace is God "extending towards" people, how does one "grow in grace" as Peter tells his readers to do in 2 Peter 3:18? Is Peter telling them to "grow in God's reach to them"??? If so, Peter is giving an impossible command because God extending Himself towards people is His own doing, not a function of people.

 

[Laura798]

Grace:

favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – grace is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").​

​

"grace" answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.​

​

​

Mercy:

is the outward manifestation of pity; it assumes need on the part of him who receives it, and resources adequate to meet the need on the part of him who shows it. It is used ​

​

(a) of God, who is rich in mercy, Eph 2:4, and who has provided salvation for all men, Tts 3:5, for Jews, Luk 1:72, and Gentiles, Rom 15:9. He is merciful to those who fear him, Luk 1:50, for they also are compassed with infirmity, and He alone can succor them. Hence they are to pray boldly for mercy, Hbr 4:16, and if for themselves, it is seemly that they should ask for mercy for one another, Gal 6:16; 1Ti 1:2. When God brings His salvation to its issue at the Coming of Christ, His people will obtain His mercy, 2Ti 1:16; Jud 1:21;​

​

(b) of men; for since God is merciful to them, He would have them show mercy to one another, Mat 9:13; 12:7; 23:23; Luk 10:37; Jam 2:13.​

​

"Wherever the words mercy and peace are found together they occur in that order, except in Gal 6:16. Mercy is the act of God, peace is the resulting experience in the heart of man. Grace describes God's attitude toward the law-breaker and the rebel; mercy is His attitude toward those who are in distress."*​

[* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 340, 341.]​

​

No I am referring to how we are saved —that is by Gods grace thru faith,
“By grace are you saved thru faith….”

 

[FreeGrace2]

...but you've built your entire theology on two translated words - articles - while the context of the chapter is Messiah distinguishing between those who are His sheep (and what he does for them) and those who are not His sheep.

Exactly. He said He would die for THE sheep. And in that same context, He mentioned "MY sheep" "other sheep of Mine" and "those NOT MY sheep".

What you are in error about is your refusal to recognize that Jesus identified His sheep vs those NOT His sheep, and that He died for THE (that means ALL the sheep).

If Jesus was going to die ONLY for His own sheep, the text would have said that. Your twisting of the verses is astounding.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for

the sheep.

- They, THE sheep, the SAME sheep, are His sheep.

No they aren't His sheep. He specifically noted those that were His sheep, and those who were NOT His sheep. So the article "the" CANNOT refer to ONLY HIS sheep. That is folly.

- The Messiah gives His life for THE sheep, His sheep

Please stop twisting Scripture and trying to force it to say something it does NOT say. The word "the" and the word "His" are not equivalents, esp in the entire context of ch 10.

Is there a reason why you haven't commented on the verses I posted showing that there are vessels made specifically for The Almighty's wrath & destruction?

Huh? I never saw any such verses. But I suppose you are referring to Rom 9:22. However, the word in the Greek is "katartizo" and doesn't mean "prepared" in any sense. It means to "restore, adjust to fit, mend, etc".

NO ONE is "specifically made for God's wrath and destruction". What other "verses" did you have in mind?

I noticed they were missing from your reply. As if reading John chapter 10 wasn't sufficient enough, can you explain those passages?

Beyond Rom 9:22, what other verses do you think support your claim?

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) God's mercy = The offer of salvation made free to all. All means all.

Proving that Christ DID die for everyone. It would be ludicrous for God's offer of salvation is made to those whose sins were not paid for.

2) God's salvation = The Messiah's payment for the wage of sin (i.e. His death); covering only the one who believes in Him, sparing them from the fire.

Then you don't even understand your own contradiction here.

3) God's grace = The gift divine empowerment given to the believer to live righteously as a saved/justified person in this present world.

No argument there.

John 3:16
...that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life...


Only the ones who believe in Him receive everlasting life.

This FACT doesn't change the FACT that He died for all. He died for ALL so that "whoever believes in Him will be saved".

And as He explains in John 10:1-29, Him laying down His life is linked to The sheep (His sheep) receiving eternal life. His sheep follow Him. THEY shall be saved. He gives THEM eternal life. One must become "His sheep", for His life is only laid down for His sheep.

In that chapter, Jesus specifically notes there are sheep that are HIS and sheep that are NOT His. But He then specifically said that He would die for THE sheep.

Those who try to force the word "THE sheep" to mean "MY sheep" are making a huge mistake.

The Messiah was sent to save His sheep

Don't you understand that the VERY definition of "His sheep" means they are already SAVED??

His people.

OK, let's examine who His people are.

John 1-
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

v.10 shows John was referring to Jesus Christ.
v.11 states clearly that "His own" did NOT receive Him. That's who 'His people' are.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

He certainly DID save His people from their sins. By dying for their sins. But that doesn't save anyone.

The offer - The Almighty's mercy - extends to all people to become grafted into the root of Israel...because Messiah was sent to save His people, Israel.

I really am surprised that you don't understand your own contradiction.

Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.

This verse proves that Christ died for everyone. Salvation CANNOT be brought to anyone whose sins have NOT been paid for.

Back in post 714 I said this:

"Let's see what the Bible actually says about the subject.

John 10:11 - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
John 10:15 - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."

In this same context, Jesus also says there are sheep that are "His" (v.14), and "other sheep of His" (v.16) and even "those who are not His sheep" (v.26)

So in the context of "the" sheep, there are sheep that are His (saved Jews), other sheep of His (saved Gentiles) and "those not His sheep" (unbelievers).

Therefore, it should be quite obvious that "the sheep" refers to everyone.

Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.

John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him. The subjunctive mood means potential.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

Now to you: what verse(s) clearly indicates that Christ didn't die for everyone?"

These verses plainly STATE that Christ died for everyone.

You haven't proven your claim to the contrary.

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience ! 3

Please notice again in Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


That God has assigned or dealt by allotment, to each person their portion of faith.

This corresponds with what Peter wrote here 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

So Just as Paul's words in Rom 12:3 is speaking of Christ's Body or Believers, so it is here with Peter ,and the word obtained here is very similar to the word dealt in Rom 12:3, and it is the word lagchanó:


I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

to receive by divine allotment !

And that is what Paul is referring to in Rom 12:3


Now understand, this is an accomplishment of the Death of Christ, that each man He died for or every man receives by allotment a portion of His Faith, Precious Faith. So being saved by Grace through Faith is nothing a Believer can boast about for its not of himself, but it is the gift of God, which is Christ, and He gives each member of His Body of which He is Saviour of Eph 5:23 through New Birth, a portion of His Own Faith, in that He comes and Lives in each of them by His Holy Spirit, empowering each of them to believe on Him, also giving them that right, with a portion of His Own Personal Faith. This Faith of Christ is called into believing action by the Call of His Gospel !

 

[Laura798]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience ! 3

Please notice again in Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


That God has assigned or dealt by allotment, to each person their portion of faith.

This corresponds with what Peter wrote here 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

So Just as Paul's words in Rom 12:3 is speaking of Christ's Body or Believers, so it is here with Peter ,and the word obtained here is very similar to the word dealt in Rom 12:3, and it is the word lagchanó:


I obtain (receive) by lot, my lot (turn) is, (b) I draw lots.

to receive by divine allotment !

And that is what Paul is referring to in Rom 12:3


Now understand, this is an accomplishment of the Death of Christ, that each man He died for or every man receives by allotment a portion of His Faith, Precious Faith. So being saved by Grace through Faith is nothing a Believer can boast about for its not of himself, but it is the gift of God, which is Christ, and He gives each member of His Body of which He is Saviour of Eph 5:23 through New Birth, a portion of His Own Faith, in that He comes and Lives in each of them by His Holy Spirit, empowering each of them to believe on Him, also giving them that right, with a portion of His Own Personal Faith. This Faith of Christ is called into believing action by the Call of His Gospel !

I am hearing a 'new gospel' here you said "through New Birth, a portion of His Own Faith, in that He comes and Lives in each of them by His Holy Spirit, empowering each of them to believe on Him, also giving them that right, with a portion of His Own Personal Faith."

Where is this found in Scripture?

When you see 'works' or 'works of the ' law --this is referring to the Mosaic Law. Faith and Belief are no more a work than breathing! Who would boast about breathing! Have you ever heard anyone boasting that they believed in Christ--that is in the act of believing in Him? Or boasting that they repented? Belief and Faith are a response to God's grace, "By grace are you saved thru faith, not of works lest any man should boast." What saves us? God's grace. How do we obtain it? Thru faith--our faith in Him. God bestows His grace on all of mankind--man must simply repent and believe.

"…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” --John 6:29

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am hearing a 'new gospel' here you said "through New Birth, a portion of His Own Faith, in that He comes and Lives in each of them by His Holy Spirit, empowering each of them to believe on Him, also giving them that right, with a portion of His Own Personal Faith."

Where is this found in Scripture?

When you see 'works' or 'works of the ' law --this is referring to the Mosaic Law. Faith and Belief are no more a work than breathing! Who would boast about breathing! Have you ever heard anyone boasting that they believed in Christ--that is in the act of believing in Him? Or boasting that they repented? Belief and Faith are a response to God's grace, "By grace are you saved thru faith, not of works lest any man should boast." What saves us? God's grace. How do we obtain it? Thru faith--our faith in Him. God bestows His grace on all of mankind--man must simply repent and believe.

"…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” --John 6:29

Excellent response!

 

[brightfame52]

I am hearing a 'new gospel' here you said "through New Birth, a portion of His Own Faith, in that He comes and Lives in each of them by His Holy Spirit, empowering each of them to believe on Him, also giving them that right, with a portion of His Own Personal Faith."

Where is this found in Scripture?

When you see 'works' or 'works of the ' law --this is referring to the Mosaic Law. Faith and Belief are no more a work than breathing! Who would boast about breathing! Have you ever heard anyone boasting that they believed in Christ--that is in the act of believing in Him? Or boasting that they repented? Belief and Faith are a response to God's grace, "By grace are you saved thru faith, not of works lest any man should boast." What saves us? God's grace. How do we obtain it? Thru faith--our faith in Him. God bestows His grace on all of mankind--man must simply repent and believe.

"…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” --John 6:29

You hearing the truth and dont know it.

 

[Laura798]

You hearing the truth and dont know it.

Actually according to Scripture, no.

 

[studentoftheword]

Laura798 said:
Belief and Faith are a response to God's grace, "By grace are you saved thru faith, not of works lest any man should boast." What saves us? God's grace. How do we obtain it? Thru faith--our faith in Him. God bestows His grace on all of mankind--man must simply repent and believe.

I say --People need to really get what Laura798 is saying here ------

Faith will always require a positive response -----God's Grace makes available all thing that Jesus accomplished on the Cross for us ---Faith takes possession of what Grace makes available ------

Grace and truth came by Jesus ----Jesus is Grace Folks------Jesus made Salvation available and through our Faith in Jesus who died and paid the price for our sins --we are saved -----

John 1:17 NIV
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Thread Topic is ------
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

This accomplished much for us -----Deliverance --Healing both Spiritual and Physical ---Sanctification --Redemption -- Justification and defeat of Satan't complete rule over ----

And yes Jesus took all our physical sickness and disease with Him on the Cross --that is Biblical ---

Matthew 8 NLV

Many People Are Healed
16 That evening they brought to Jesus many people who had demons in them. The demons were put out when Jesus spoke to them. All the sick people were healed.

17 It happened as the early preacher Isaiah said it would happen. He said, “He took on Himself our sickness and carried away our diseases.”


The Suffering Servant
Isaiah 53 ►NASB

4However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,

And our pains that He carried;

Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,

Struck down by God, and humiliated.

5But He was [c]pierced for our offenses,

He was crushed for our wrongdoings;

The punishment for our [d] well-being was laid upon Him,

And by His wounds we are healed.
-------------------------------------------------

I say ---NOTICE ---We ARE HEALED ___Past Tense Folks------If you receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour ----you have healing available to you -----Grace who is Jesus makes healing available ---your Faith in Jesus need a positive response to manifest that healing in your life -----believe you will be healed and don't doubt -----Keep your Faith focused on Jesus not the illness or disease ---

Peter is a perfect example of Faith needing a positive response ---Jesus called to him ---Peter moved out of the boat ----Faith in action -----
Peter who was a mere man who when he focused on Jesus walked on water --then what happened -he shifted his focus to the wind he felt and he sank ------

To have what Jesus accomplished for us we need to keep the focus on Jesus not our surroundings ---
​

 

[Yahshua]

What you are in error about is your refusal to recognize that Jesus identified His sheep vs those NOT His sheep, and that He died for THE (that means ALL the sheep).

If Jesus was going to die ONLY for His own sheep, the text would have said that. Your twisting of the verses is astounding.

I'm usually accused of twisting text when I simply copy and paste it verbatim (chased by a bullet point repetition). Can't get any plainer than to post the verses untouched as I did.

It doesn't make sense to address any other points you've replied to me until we settle this passage. Let's reread John 10 using your understanding that "The Sheep" = "Everyone". I inserted "everyone" into the text wherever references to "the sheep" appeared.


John 10:1-4 [brackets mine]
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into [everyone], but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of [everyone].

3 To him the porter openeth; and [everyone] hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and [everyone] follow him: for [everyone] know his voice.


John 10:7-16 [brackets mine]
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of [everyone].

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but [everyone] did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for [everyone].

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own [everyone] are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth [everyone], and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [everyone], and scattereth [everyone].

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for [everyone].

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for [everyone]

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Notice how Messiah's words don't make sense when "the sheep" means everyone.

Everyone hears His voice?
Everyone follows Him?
Everyone knows His voice?
Everyone did not hear the thieves and robbers??
The wolf caught everyone and scattered everyone??? (Only Israel was scattered, by the way)
The hireling doesn't care for everyone? (who would be the hireling of everyone???)
And who are the "other sheep" if He was already speaking about everyone?????

If we kept "everyone" as the meaning, the only line that would make any sense - in the ENTIRE parable - is the one you believe about Messiah giving his life for everyone. The rest of the parable would be nonsense. God isn't the author of confusion.

----

I feel the issue is a bit of pride on the part of Gentile believers boasting against the broken-off branches (i.e. Jews) as if Gentile believers bear the Root ("this is our Christ! He died for the Nations!"). No, the Messiah didn't die for the nations. He died for Israel as prophesied to them in Jeremiah. Gentiles are then offered an opportunity to become part of Israel through the Messiah and thus partake in His salvation for Israel (i.e. His Death). Paul explains this in Romans 11. Everyone else is either a wolf, a thief, or a robber: enemies.

We must be humbled by the great mercy the Almighty has shown us by allowing Gentiles believers access into Israel's salvation, for "salvation is of the Jews" (- The Messiah; John 4:22). Gentiles believers are the "other sheep" brought into the fold of THE sheep, Israel. Thus "all Israel shall be saved", wild branch and natural branch.

When scripture conflicts with our doctrine we must accept scripture...but often times we are so uncomfortable with the change that we turn a blind eye to what the words are actually saying. Case in point below...

Huh? I never saw any such verses. But I suppose you are referring to Rom 9:22. However, the word in the Greek is "katartizo" and doesn't mean "prepared" in any sense. It means to "restore, adjust to fit, mend, etc".

NO ONE is "specifically made for God's wrath and destruction". What other "verses" did you have in mind?

I guess that Roman 9:22 passage doesn't count? Here's a second witness. Does it count?


Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose--even the wicked for the day of disaster/doom.