In principle, you are correct that God chose the elect to be saved before he made anything and anyone, but in practice, he enables us to believe in and follow Jesus. I think that this distinction between principle and practice would help you understand the Bible's teachings. The Bible fully shares with us two mysterious threads of thought. First, God has his plan for all believers long before we are alive. Second, we are completely responsible for all our thoughts, words, and actions. Both are true, though mysterious (Genesis 50:20).
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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@Bruce_Leiter
Correct I acknowledged as much in the post.
Now you are deviating from my premise, this is all about what Christ has accomplished by Death, man has no responsibility in that !
Correct I acknowledged as much in the post.
Now you are deviating from my premise, this is all about what Christ has accomplished by Death, man has no responsibility in that !
yes ... I responded to the statement made by brightfame52:
brightfame52 said: "Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."
My response to that statement was (bold added):
"Do you know that in addition to the church, the Lord Jesus Christ died for others? The church began on Day of Pentecost and continues to this day. However, what about those who lived and died prior to Day of Pentecost? The Lord Jesus Christ died for them as well ..."
The "others" I referred to are all believers who lived prior to the establishment of the church on Day of Pentecost.
I replied further here, here, here, here.
.
brightfame52 said: "Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."
My response to that statement was (bold added):
"Do you know that in addition to the church, the Lord Jesus Christ died for others? The church began on Day of Pentecost and continues to this day. However, what about those who lived and died prior to Day of Pentecost? The Lord Jesus Christ died for them as well ..."
The "others" I referred to are all believers who lived prior to the establishment of the church on Day of Pentecost.
I replied further here, here, here, here.
.
The design/purpose Christ dying for the Sins of the elect, was that they should be made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21. This is the free gift of righteousness Paul writes of here Rom 5:17-18. By this Christ is their Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30;Jer 33:16, all for whom He died are complete in Him. Its being a enemy to Christ to say people He died for aren't made the righteousness of God in Him !
... John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
... you espouse universalism ...since we know from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the whole world ...
then what you are saying is that all mankind is complete in Him.
... the "enemy to Christ" is the one who says ...
.
.
There is an important difference between pardon and exoneration.
For example; former US President Gerald Ford pardoned former US
President Richard Nixon so the bad-boy ex chief executive didn't have to
spend time in prison. However, Mr. Ford was powerless to wipe Mr. Nixon's
criminal history, i.e. his rap sheet. In other words; Mr. Nixon's conduct is
still on the books right along with the evidence used against him.
In a similar manner: much of the world's sins, though pardoned, are still on
the books and that is very bad because those books are going to be opened
during the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Now according to 2Cor 5:19, God has reconciled Himself to the entire world
by means of Jesus' crucifixion. In other words; everybody's sins have been
pardoned. However, not everyone in the world has reciprocated with an
RSVP to reconcile themselves to God.
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you
by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath
made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him." (2Cor 5:20-21)
The righteousness of God is an astonishing benefit. In a nutshell; God went
one further than Mr. Ford by offering folks a total wipe so that it will be as
though they have never been anything but 100% innocent their entire lives
because there will be nothing recorded in those dreadful books that would
otherwise be used against them.
The folks trying to earn their way past retribution by means of their own
personal piety are doomed to failure because God has set the bar too high.
"All fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)
In other words; the bar is set at sinless perfection. Good luck with that!
_
There is an important difference between pardon and exoneration.
For example; former US President Gerald Ford pardoned former US
President Richard Nixon so the bad-boy ex chief executive didn't have to
spend time in prison. However, Mr. Ford was powerless to wipe Mr. Nixon's
criminal history, i.e. his rap sheet. In other words; Mr. Nixon's conduct is
still on the books right along with the evidence used against him.
In a similar manner: much of the world's sins, though pardoned, are still on
the books and that is very bad because those books are going to be opened
during the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Now according to 2Cor 5:19, God has reconciled Himself to the entire world
by means of Jesus' crucifixion. In other words; everybody's sins have been
pardoned. However, not everyone in the world has reciprocated with an
RSVP to reconcile themselves to God.
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you
by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath
made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him." (2Cor 5:20-21)
The righteousness of God is an astonishing benefit. In a nutshell; God went
one further than Mr. Ford by offering folks a total wipe so that it will be as
though they have never been anything but 100% innocent their entire lives
because there will be nothing recorded in those dreadful books that would
otherwise be used against them.
The folks trying to earn their way past retribution by means of their own
personal piety are doomed to failure because God has set the bar too high.
"All fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)
In other words; the bar is set at sinless perfection. Good luck with that!
_
.
● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins, and was raised
to life for our justification.
The Greek word for "justification" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means
acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence: usually due to a lack of
sufficient evidence to convict.
That's comparable to Isa 53:11 wherein is said:
"By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many; and he will bear
their iniquities."
The thing is: Jesus not only took the punishment for my sins, but he also
bore them, i.e. by some strange administrative process that I have yet to
fully understand, God removed my sins from me and transferred them to
Jesus; in effect making me a joint principal with him on the cross.
● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
So, in the end, folks whose names have been cleared of all wrong doing by
Jesus' atonement will have nothing on the books with which to accuse them
at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15, viz: it will appear
they have never been anything less than 100% innocent their entire lives.
● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not
counting their trespasses against them. (cf. Jer 31:34)
The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to keeping an inventory, i.e.
an indictment. Well; without an indictment, the great white throne will
have no cause to proceed with a trial.
_
● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins, and was raised
to life for our justification.
The Greek word for "justification" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means
acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence: usually due to a lack of
sufficient evidence to convict.
That's comparable to Isa 53:11 wherein is said:
"By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many; and he will bear
their iniquities."
The thing is: Jesus not only took the punishment for my sins, but he also
bore them, i.e. by some strange administrative process that I have yet to
fully understand, God removed my sins from me and transferred them to
Jesus; in effect making me a joint principal with him on the cross.
● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
So, in the end, folks whose names have been cleared of all wrong doing by
Jesus' atonement will have nothing on the books with which to accuse them
at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15, viz: it will appear
they have never been anything less than 100% innocent their entire lives.
● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not
counting their trespasses against them. (cf. Jer 31:34)
The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to keeping an inventory, i.e.
an indictment. Well; without an indictment, the great white throne will
have no cause to proceed with a trial.
_
It purged our sins ! Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This answers an old test prediction Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
And its for this cause non for whom Christ died, His Sheep can have any charge laid against them, no sin imputed ! 73
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This answers an old test prediction Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
And its for this cause non for whom Christ died, His Sheep can have any charge laid against them, no sin imputed ! 73
... you espouse universalism:John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
since we know from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the whole world ...
then what you are saying is that no descendant of Adam "can have any charge laid against them".
Scripture does not say sin is "imputed". Scripture plainly tells us that all mankind has sinned and come short of the glory of God ...
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Scripture plainly tells us it is righteousness that is imputed to those who believe:
Romans 4:20-25
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, brightfame52? ... is the Lord Jesus Christ the Lord in your life ...
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
.
... you espouse universalism:John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
since we know from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the whole world ...
then what you are saying is that no descendant of Adam "can have any charge laid against them".
Scripture does not say sin is "imputed". Scripture plainly tells us that all mankind has sinned and come short of the glory of God ...
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Scripture plainly tells us it is righteousness that is imputed to those who believe:
Romans 4:20-25
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, brightfame52? ... is the Lord Jesus Christ the Lord in your life ...
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
.
Everyone Christ died for/shed His Blood for are made priest unto God Rev 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 74
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 74
.
When Adam decided to taste the forbidden fruit; he became a tin God, i.e.
Adam became his own authority in matters relative to right and wrong.
● Gen 3:22 . . The Lord God said: The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.
In other words: Adam's sensibilities didn't become divine, rather, they
became natural, which, for purposes of discerning good and evil, isn't all that
reliable.
● Rom 2:13-16 . . Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by
nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of
the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
In other words; Man's conscience is not only judgmental, but also quite
adept at rationalizing.
Well; long story short, Man's natural conscience is an impure element of his
existence and in need of de-contamination-- i.e. sanitizing --which was done
on a regular basis in the Old Testament, especially on Yom Kippur, because
a single sanitizing alone wasn't thorough enough.
● Heb 10:1-4 . . For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things
to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices
year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw
near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the
worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had
consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year
by year.
Fortunately, Jesus' atonement addresses man's tin-God sensibilities and is so
thorough that one's conscience requires sanitizing only once in a lifetime.
● Heb 9:13-14 . . For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a
heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is
cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from
dead works to worship the living God?
NOTE: It's important to be aware that man's natural sensibilities aren't
deactivated when he undergoes sanitizing by means of Christ's atonement.
No, his conscience remains quite active, hence the need to re-train one's mind
per Rom 12:2 and Eph 5:10. However, one's natural sensibilities are no longer
a barrier between God and Man for those who've taken advantage of the cross
to protect themselves from retribution.
_
When Adam decided to taste the forbidden fruit; he became a tin God, i.e.
Adam became his own authority in matters relative to right and wrong.
● Gen 3:22 . . The Lord God said: The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.
In other words: Adam's sensibilities didn't become divine, rather, they
became natural, which, for purposes of discerning good and evil, isn't all that
reliable.
● Rom 2:13-16 . . Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by
nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of
the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
In other words; Man's conscience is not only judgmental, but also quite
adept at rationalizing.
Well; long story short, Man's natural conscience is an impure element of his
existence and in need of de-contamination-- i.e. sanitizing --which was done
on a regular basis in the Old Testament, especially on Yom Kippur, because
a single sanitizing alone wasn't thorough enough.
● Heb 10:1-4 . . For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things
to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices
year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw
near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the
worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had
consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year
by year.
Fortunately, Jesus' atonement addresses man's tin-God sensibilities and is so
thorough that one's conscience requires sanitizing only once in a lifetime.
● Heb 9:13-14 . . For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a
heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is
cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from
dead works to worship the living God?
NOTE: It's important to be aware that man's natural sensibilities aren't
deactivated when he undergoes sanitizing by means of Christ's atonement.
No, his conscience remains quite active, hence the need to re-train one's mind
per Rom 12:2 and Eph 5:10. However, one's natural sensibilities are no longer
a barrier between God and Man for those who've taken advantage of the cross
to protect themselves from retribution.
_
Life from Christ !
One of the effects of the death of Christ for everyone He died for, is that through it, they He died for should live, both spiritually and eternally 1 Jn 4:9-10
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The fact is, those whom Christ was sent to be the propitiation for their sins [1 Jn 2:1-2] it was so that they should live through[on account of] Him.
If one has their sins propitiated by Christ, they shall live because of it. Yet not all shall live, so Christ could not have been the propitiation for their sins ! 75
One of the effects of the death of Christ for everyone He died for, is that through it, they He died for should live, both spiritually and eternally 1 Jn 4:9-10
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The fact is, those whom Christ was sent to be the propitiation for their sins [1 Jn 2:1-2] it was so that they should live through[on account of] Him.
If one has their sins propitiated by Christ, they shall live because of it. Yet not all shall live, so Christ could not have been the propitiation for their sins ! 75
Those Christ died for, and rose again in behalf of are never going to be condemned, and by His death alone for them it accomplished their Justification before God ! Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
The word justification here dikaiósis means:
the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Usage: acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
Its the very same word Paul used in Rom 5:18 for Justification of life, so Christ death for the elect resulted in their Justification of life, which the Resurrection of Christ attests to.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
The word justification here dikaiósis means:
the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Usage: acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
Its the very same word Paul used in Rom 5:18 for Justification of life, so Christ death for the elect resulted in their Justification of life, which the Resurrection of Christ attests to.
Life from Christ !
One of the effects of the death of Christ for everyone He died for, is that through it, they He died for should live, both spiritually and eternally 1 Jn 4:9-10
So Christ through His Propitiating death gives life to the world, not a possibility of life Jn 6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world The world of the Elect or of His Sheep.
One of the effects of the death of Christ for everyone He died for, is that through it, they He died for should live, both spiritually and eternally 1 Jn 4:9-10
So Christ through His Propitiating death gives life to the world, not a possibility of life Jn 6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world The world of the Elect or of His Sheep.
Christs Death or Offering accomplished the Sanctification of all those He died for Heb 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 13:12
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that [so that] he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
His Death accomplished their sanctification unto God before they are born. Just like it did Jerimiah Jer 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 75
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 13:12
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that [so that] he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
His Death accomplished their sanctification unto God before they are born. Just like it did Jerimiah Jer 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 75