In principle, you are correct that God chose the elect to be saved before he made anything and anyone, but in practice, he enables us to believe in and follow Jesus. I think that this distinction between principle and practice would help you understand the Bible's teachings. The Bible fully shares with us two mysterious threads of thought. First, God has his plan for all believers long before we are alive. Second, we are completely responsible for all our thoughts, words, and actions. Both are true, though mysterious (Genesis 50:20).
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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@Bruce_Leiter
Correct I acknowledged as much in the post.
Now you are deviating from my premise, this is all about what Christ has accomplished by Death, man has no responsibility in that !
Correct I acknowledged as much in the post.
Now you are deviating from my premise, this is all about what Christ has accomplished by Death, man has no responsibility in that !
yes ... I responded to the statement made by brightfame52:
brightfame52 said: "Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."
My response to that statement was (bold added):
"Do you know that in addition to the church, the Lord Jesus Christ died for others? The church began on Day of Pentecost and continues to this day. However, what about those who lived and died prior to Day of Pentecost? The Lord Jesus Christ died for them as well ..."
The "others" I referred to are all believers who lived prior to the establishment of the church on Day of Pentecost.
I replied further here, here, here, here.
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brightfame52 said: "Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church."
My response to that statement was (bold added):
"Do you know that in addition to the church, the Lord Jesus Christ died for others? The church began on Day of Pentecost and continues to this day. However, what about those who lived and died prior to Day of Pentecost? The Lord Jesus Christ died for them as well ..."
The "others" I referred to are all believers who lived prior to the establishment of the church on Day of Pentecost.
I replied further here, here, here, here.
.
The design/purpose Christ dying for the Sins of the elect, was that they should be made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21. This is the free gift of righteousness Paul writes of here Rom 5:17-18. By this Christ is their Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30;Jer 33:16, all for whom He died are complete in Him. Its being a enemy to Christ to say people He died for aren't made the righteousness of God in Him !
... John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
... you espouse universalism ...since we know from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the whole world ...
then what you are saying is that all mankind is complete in Him.
... the "enemy to Christ" is the one who says ...
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There is an important difference between pardon and exoneration.
For example; former US President Gerald Ford pardoned former US
President Richard Nixon so the bad-boy ex chief executive didn't have to
spend time in prison. However, Mr. Ford was powerless to wipe Mr. Nixon's
criminal history, i.e. his rap sheet. In other words; Mr. Nixon's conduct is
still on the books right along with the evidence used against him.
In a similar manner: much of the world's sins, though pardoned, are still on
the books and that is very bad because those books are going to be opened
during the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Now according to 2Cor 5:19, God has reconciled Himself to the entire world
by means of Jesus' crucifixion. In other words; everybody's sins have been
pardoned. However, not everyone in the world has reciprocated with an
RSVP to reconcile themselves to God.
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you
by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath
made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him." (2Cor 5:20-21)
The righteousness of God is an astonishing benefit. In a nutshell; God went
one further than Mr. Ford by offering folks a total wipe so that it will be as
though they have never been anything but 100% innocent their entire lives
because there will be nothing recorded in those dreadful books that would
otherwise be used against them.
The folks trying to earn their way past retribution by means of their own
personal piety are doomed to failure because God has set the bar too high.
"All fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)
In other words; the bar is set at sinless perfection. Good luck with that!
_
There is an important difference between pardon and exoneration.
For example; former US President Gerald Ford pardoned former US
President Richard Nixon so the bad-boy ex chief executive didn't have to
spend time in prison. However, Mr. Ford was powerless to wipe Mr. Nixon's
criminal history, i.e. his rap sheet. In other words; Mr. Nixon's conduct is
still on the books right along with the evidence used against him.
In a similar manner: much of the world's sins, though pardoned, are still on
the books and that is very bad because those books are going to be opened
during the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
Now according to 2Cor 5:19, God has reconciled Himself to the entire world
by means of Jesus' crucifixion. In other words; everybody's sins have been
pardoned. However, not everyone in the world has reciprocated with an
RSVP to reconcile themselves to God.
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you
by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath
made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him." (2Cor 5:20-21)
The righteousness of God is an astonishing benefit. In a nutshell; God went
one further than Mr. Ford by offering folks a total wipe so that it will be as
though they have never been anything but 100% innocent their entire lives
because there will be nothing recorded in those dreadful books that would
otherwise be used against them.
The folks trying to earn their way past retribution by means of their own
personal piety are doomed to failure because God has set the bar too high.
"All fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)
In other words; the bar is set at sinless perfection. Good luck with that!
_
.
● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins, and was raised
to life for our justification.
The Greek word for "justification" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means
acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence: usually due to a lack of
sufficient evidence to convict.
That's comparable to Isa 53:11 wherein is said:
"By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many; and he will bear
their iniquities."
The thing is: Jesus not only took the punishment for my sins, but he also
bore them, i.e. by some strange administrative process that I have yet to
fully understand, God removed my sins from me and transferred them to
Jesus; in effect making me a joint principal with him on the cross.
● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
So, in the end, folks whose names have been cleared of all wrong doing by
Jesus' atonement will have nothing on the books with which to accuse them
at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15, viz: it will appear
they have never been anything less than 100% innocent their entire lives.
● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not
counting their trespasses against them. (cf. Jer 31:34)
The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to keeping an inventory, i.e.
an indictment. Well; without an indictment, the great white throne will
have no cause to proceed with a trial.
_
● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins, and was raised
to life for our justification.
The Greek word for "justification" is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which means
acquittal; defined as an adjudication of innocence: usually due to a lack of
sufficient evidence to convict.
That's comparable to Isa 53:11 wherein is said:
"By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many; and he will bear
their iniquities."
The thing is: Jesus not only took the punishment for my sins, but he also
bore them, i.e. by some strange administrative process that I have yet to
fully understand, God removed my sins from me and transferred them to
Jesus; in effect making me a joint principal with him on the cross.
● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
So, in the end, folks whose names have been cleared of all wrong doing by
Jesus' atonement will have nothing on the books with which to accuse them
at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15, viz: it will appear
they have never been anything less than 100% innocent their entire lives.
● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not
counting their trespasses against them. (cf. Jer 31:34)
The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to keeping an inventory, i.e.
an indictment. Well; without an indictment, the great white throne will
have no cause to proceed with a trial.
_
It purged our sins ! Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This answers an old test prediction Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
And its for this cause non for whom Christ died, His Sheep can have any charge laid against them, no sin imputed ! 73
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This answers an old test prediction Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
And its for this cause non for whom Christ died, His Sheep can have any charge laid against them, no sin imputed ! 73