The book of Job, my favorite book.

[tttallison]

How many times have you heard sermons preached on Job, when a family is suffering some loss? The story is always, look at poor Job, he suffered without cause. The purpose is to try and ease the suffering. You have been indoctrinated; you have become blind to what the word is saying.

For Job to remain on the pedestal you must ignore what God said, you must ignore what Job said, you must ignore what Elihu said, you must ignore what the three friends said, and you must ignore what the spirit said.

God said,

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Job 41:34

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. (Proper way to interpret this verse. Satan threshes potsherds upon the mire.)

He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride. Continued--

 

[ZNP]

How many times have you heard sermons preached on Job, when a family is suffering some loss? The story is always, look at poor Job, he suffered without cause. The purpose is to try and ease the suffering. You have been indoctrinated; you have become blind to what the word is saying.

For Job to remain on the pedestal you must ignore what God said, you must ignore what Job said, you must ignore what Elihu said, you must ignore what the three friends said, and you must ignore what the spirit said.

God said,

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Job 41:34

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. (Proper way to interpret this verse. Satan threshes potsherds upon the mire.)

He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride. Continued--

Yes, I agree. Imagine some man comes and kills your children, destroys your farm, steals everything you have and your response is to simply accept it. This is like the kid who gets bullied at school and simply hands over the money every day to the bully.

His great boast is that "in all this Job did not sin". This is wimpy religion.

Let me share another testimony. This was immediately after I received the Lord. I was in the boy scouts and my dad was going to be the scout master that year. I had been a patrol leader the last two years and most kids go on to take a senior job in the troop but I wanted to help my dad and felt the Patrol leaders do the most work. So I decided to be a patrol leader again. At the very start, prior to the first troop meeting, my dad called a meeting with the four patrol leaders and the senior patrol leader (who was my best friend). We were all sitting in a small circle around him and he has a list of the eight kids in each of our patrols. He goes to the first kid (someone I didn't know) and asks him to list two kids in his patrol that he did not want. The kid gave him two names. He did the same with the next two patrol leaders (both of these kids had been in my patrols one from two years ago and the other from one) and they also give him two names each. He skips me and goes back to the first kid and asks him to choose two kids from my patrol and likewise with the next two guys. I am left with the eight kids no one wanted. This meeting was like a slap in the face. I realized someone had complained that things weren't fair, that with my dad as Scoutmaster and my best friend as senior patrol leader everything was rigged for my advantage. And I agreed that this was not an unreasonable thought (I had won the premier patrol award the last two years and those two other patrol leaders who had been in my patrols, they had won the premier scout award, so it was reasonable to think that I had won because I had the best kids). What people didn't know is that those awards had gone into a drawer, we treated them as "participation trophies" in my house. My dad absolutely despises that attitude and he demolished any thought of favoritism from the get go.

No, I left that meeting with three very big problems. First, one of the kids in my patrol was the younger brother of one of those patrol leaders. I thought this simply showed how idiotic they were, his older brother had been the premier scout and yet no one wanted him? Anyway I knew he was going to go home and tell his brother what happened and that no one wanted him. So in addition to my eight kids being despised in this way it was going to become known to everyone in the troop as well as their parents. Second, I had Tommy Dieck in the patrol! I hadn't seen him for a year. My thought was "he is still in the troop?" The worst thing that can happen to a patrol is if no one shows up. Then, third, my mom was tired of having patrol meetings at our house and told me she didn't want any this time. So in addition to telling the kids that no one wanted them I was also going to have to tell them "oh, and by the way my mom doesn't want you either".

We are in the first troop meeting and we break up into our patrols to take care of some business like arranging our patrol meetings, naming the patrol, etc. That one kid whose older brother was a patrol leader was standing off by himself all sullen and said "looks like they gave you all the losers". Everyone is looking at me for my response. I told him "I'm not a loser, my patrols are not losers, who told you that you are a loser?" The one thing I knew is that kids are not intimidated by their older brothers, so I was reminding him that his older brother had been premier scout. That was all anyone needed to hear. Immediately Tommy Dieck asked "can we have the patrol meetings at my house?" which started a firestorm of all the other kids fighting over having the meetings at their house. I told them we would set up a schedule, anyone who wants the patrol meeting will get on the schedule, but you have to go to the other patrol meetings otherwise you forfeit your spot. I also grudgingly offered to forfeit my turn so they could have more turns.

Fast forward to the last camping trip of the year. At this point my patrol is so far ahead on points they have wrapped up premier patrol weeks ago. However, one of the kids on my patrol was in second place for premier scout. I had never cared about this before, but now I was indignant, they insulted my kids, made it all about the points, and so I wanted to rub their faces in it by having one of my kids win the premier scout award as well. I went to the scribe who was on the camping trip and asked how many points he would give this kid if he built a shelter. He said he'd give him 25 points. He needed 50. I said "that isn't enough". He said "but I'll give him 75 points if he also sleeps all night in the shelter". So we shook on it. I then forced this kid to build the shelter and sleep in it. He complained the whole time that he didn't care about the points. I felt terrible and vowed to myself to never make this mistake again.

Then at the barbecue where they hand out the awards I kept seeing parents that I never saw come to these. Even my mom came but I figured that was because my Dad was the scoutmaster. When I saw that kid who I had forced to make that shelter I had to laugh. This kid was like "pig pen" in the Charlie Brown skits. His uniform was always crumpled. But now, at a barbecue he is wearing a uniform that was ironed and starched! When my dad handed out the awards it hit me, the kids in my patrol were so proud, their parents were so proud. The reason those parents had come was because they were proud and before they didn't come because they knew their kids were despised. That kid who told me he didn't care, he lied. If you don't try then there is no loss in losing.

All of a sudden what my dad did was not a curse it was a blessing. Instead of my winning three awards because I got the best kids, it was those kids who won awards because they got the best patrol leader.

 

[tttallison]

Job said,

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master. (Job wanted to be free from God.)

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:2I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 13:14 Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand?

Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy? (The only time you see God hiding his face from man is when they have sinned.)

Job 13:27 Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet. (Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.)

Job 14:19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.

Job 16:17 Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.

Job 19:6-7 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net. Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

Job 19:9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.

Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.

Job 23:3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Etc, etc.

 

[tttallison]

Yes, I agree. Imagine some man comes and kills your children, destroys your farm, steals everything you have and your response is to simply accept it. This is like the kid who gets bullied at school and simply hands over the money every day to the bully.

His great boast is that "in all this Job did not sin". This is wimpy religion.

You are not saying God is a bully?

 

[ZNP]

You are not saying God is a bully?

No, I'm saying God is the one who is training us to rule and reign and that means we stand up to bullies.

 

[tttallison]

No, I'm saying God is the one who is training us to rule and reign and that means we stand up to bullies.

Who was the bully in Job's case?

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

The bet was would Job curse God. Upon losing his family and possessions, Job worshipped. Satan lost. So Satan doubles down and includes an attack on Job. While Job's faith is tested, God uses the opportunity to reveal Himself much more intimately to Job. And Job still doesn't curse God. Same test, merely extended.

I also asked what Job's sin was specifically. Can you share?

The word curse is derived from two Hebrew words. "barak" and "lo" which interpreted means to "bless not". The Hebrew word "barak" Strongs H1288 always means a form of bless, translated bless 302 times out of 330 times. When the Hebrew word "lo" occurs with "barak" it means bless not, and it has been translated to English as curse four times. After the first test Job said, Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed ("barak") be the name of the LORD.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will "barak" "lo" thee to thy face.

We can see from this first test that Job blessed God after the first test. Therefore, we could say Satan was wrong, but after the second test Job did not bless God. We could say that Satan served his purpose.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? In Job 40 God asks Job if his own right hand can save him.





[/QUOTE]
Job's sinfulness was his bad theology about God like his friends, who all believed that a great sin causes great suffering in this life. Job was blameless, as the beginning of the book describes him, because he had consistent, outward faithfulness to God. But when push comes to shove, his false ideas do not measure up to his experiences. That is why he questions God, especially by his lamenting in chapter ten. However, God accepts his lamenting but condemns his "friends'" judgmentalism and condemnation of Job. The point of the book is the persistence of true faith against all circumstances that test it.

 

[ZNP]

Who was the bully in Job's case?

Satan

 

[tttallison]

Job's sinfulness was his bad theology about God like his friends, who all believed that a great sin causes great suffering in this life. Job was blameless, as the beginning of the book describes him, because he had consistent, outward faithfulness to God. But when push comes to shove, his false ideas do not measure up to his experiences. That is why he questions God, especially by his lamenting in chapter ten. However, God accepts his lamenting but condemns his "friends'" judgmentalism and condemnation of Job. The point of the book is the persistence of true faith against all circumstances that test it.

Bruce, it sounds like you are saying great sin does not cause great suffering, but isn't that perception false according to the Bible?

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?

Lam 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her. Lam 4:8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.

Job 7:5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome. Job 19:20 My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth. Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

 

[tttallison]

Satan

Not according to Job.

Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:

Job 10:2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

Job 10:16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.

Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.

Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,

Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?

Job 13:27 Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet.

Job 16:7But now he hath made me weary: thou hast made desolate all my company.

Job 16:8 And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.

Job seems to think the bully is God.​

 

[ZNP]

Not according to Job.

Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:

Job 10:2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

Job 10:16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.

Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.

Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,

Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?

Job 13:27 Thou puttest my feet also in the stocks, and lookest narrowly unto all my paths; thou settest a print upon the heels of my feet.

Job 16:7But now he hath made me weary: thou hast made desolate all my company.

Job 16:8 And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face.

Job 16:13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.

Job seems to think the bully is God.​

Those were words without knowledge

Job 38:2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?

God tells Job this is how He lays the foundation in a man.

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

There is a science to warfare.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Whether it is football, boxing, basketball, or whatever, these guys train very precisely so they can do the things they do.

God is training Job to be a warrior, this is simply training camp.

Job 40:1 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

The Lord is making it very clear, if you you think you can do a better job than me, go ahead, correct me. You who know so much, go ahead, answer my questions.

3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

This is the point of Job, listening to anything Job or the friends said before this is simply a waste of time. How can God allow injustice? He isn't allowing it, He is training us to rule and reign to deal with it. Job complaining about how God is training him is equated to discrediting God's justice.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, he is supposed to have an arm like God, his voice is supposed to thunder like God's. Man is supposed to look on all who are proud and bring them low. God will use man to crush the wicked.

When you watch the movie "Miracle" about the US hockey team winning gold in Lake Placid was Herb Brookes a bully or was he the coach training those kids to take on the best hockey team in the world and beat them?

 

[tttallison]

Those were words without knowledge

Job 38:2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?

So Job didn't say anything right.

 

[tourist]

Who was the bully in Job's case?

Perhaps his three friends.

 

[tourist]

So Job didn't say anything right.

Seems to me he said a whole bunch of things right.

 

[ZNP]

So Job didn't say anything right.

That is what Job said

42:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

 

[tttallison]

That is what Job said

42:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

So Job had thoughts that he didn't know God could hear?

You are referring to the last chapter, when Job repented and received salvation. Prior to that he was without knowledge.

I knew an Orthodox Jew from Brooklyn who could quote scripture better than most, but he didn't understand scripture. He had a zeal for God, but without knowledge.

 

[tttallison]

Perhaps his three friends.

A person ought to choose his friends wisely. I don't know that I have any friend that would sit in silence for seven days, and seven nights, upon the ground.

Job had one thing right. Job said, God had sent them to testify against Job.

 

[christophernyc]

Christopher Greetings, Now have internet back after the storm. Still do not have electricity.

My perception of Job is that he represents all of Edom. The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is about Israel. There were two brothers, Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, and Esau, who is Edom. Jacob received the birthright from Esau, but they both received a similar blessing.

Elihu said, Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

The parallel between Israel and Job is amazing.

Deu 32:12- So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun/(upright one) waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Job 29:3 When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness; Job 29:6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil; Job 15:27 Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.
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Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
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Deu 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Job 1:16-19 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
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Deu 32:28-29 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
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Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:1-3 is a picture of Job. Unsaved yet having a zeal for God, but without knowledge. Trying to establish his own righteousness, and yet not submitting to God's righteousness.

Assuming you were affected by Milton? Hope you get power back soon if it's not up already!

I see the parallels you are drawing between Job and Israel. There are a lot of things to unpack there, but here are a few thoughts. First of all, I think this supports one of the theories that Moses wrote the book of Job since we know he did write (the majority) of Deuteronomy. (But that is another topic for another day.) Secondly, I think the parallel goes back to your main argument that Job is suffering because of sin (self-righteousness) and God uses this ordeal to ultimately correct Job.

I appreciate how you seem to take the book of Job as a story and not just a theological textbook. If that's accurate, I think reading it that way is very helpful. It is a longer book and filled with dense poetry (as you know), so I can see how some people could "lose the plot" while reading it and maybe not grasp the whole story.

I think I understand your interpretation of this story, and the depth of support you have for it is quite extensive. However, I still do not see it that way. The overall takeaway of your interpretation still sounds like the argument of Job's three friends who believe Job had sinned in order to incur his suffering.

You drew a parallel between Job being "blameless" and Paul being "blameless". The difference between these two on that point is that *God* is calling Job blameless (twice) compared to Paul *referring to himself* as blameless. That is a big difference.

Additionally, I think we agreed it was Elihu that unlocked the book for each of us. There are still questions about Elihu that have gone unanswered in your interpretation, however. They are things I don't really think should be ignored. Those questions have been laid out in this thread already, but here they are again in brief:

1. How is Job supposed to receive Elihu as a mediator when Elihu is burning with anger toward him?
2. Elihu wishes torture upon Job. How is that helpful?
3. Elihu encourages deciding "among themselves" what is good and choosing their own judgment. Why does he not encourage seeking God instead of encouraging a reliance on human wisdom only?
4. Elihu does not believe God would act unjustly - and yet God did allow Job to suffer *without cause*. God had a purpose in allowing the suffering, and God is ultimately good, but God is demonstrating something else here entirely through this ordeal. Have you ever considered that Elihu is wrong?
5. You asked before how God would give 6 chapters in the Bible to someone who is speaking incorrectly. It seems to imply Elihu *must* be right if he gets to speak that long. And yet, you also claimed that Job does say anything correct until chapter 42. Did you notice that Job has *more* words than Elihu? Do you see the glaring contradiction there? But, again, my claim is that the substance of words is more important than the amount of words.

To agree with you interpretation, it seems like one would have to insert something else entirely into the story for it to work. One would have to believe that Job is living in sin (self-righteousness) after the text plainly says that God calls Job blameless (twice). So one has to not only believe the opposite of what the text says, but then also insert a different premise to the story. That is quite a mentally calisthenic feat.

 

[christophernyc]

Yes, my position is that this is the blessing that Job gets at the end. Initially the prayers are all vague and his response to the calamity as though it is all fate. We received good from God's hand so we can also receive ill.

I believe God made man in His image and after His likeness because we are supposed to have an arm like God and a voice like God and God is telling him that God would not simply lie down and take it when the enemy comes along.

We can obviously see that Job is a prefigure of Jesus and Jesus conquered death, He wasn't conquered by it. We also have the resurrection life if we are saved.

God desires us to rule and reign over everything and so the things that happen to us in our life are simply our being trained to rule and reign and they are an opportunity for us to turn to the Lord and allow it to be "no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me".

For example, I was a teacher in Brooklyn at a school with kids who were performing at the very bottom of NYC. My prayer is that they would score at the very top in my subject (they have a regents exam at the end of the year). By all accounts that should have been impossible, but Colossians says that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ, so I figured with His help it wasn't and sure enough they did score at the very top.

I agree with your assessment of Job being a "prefigure" of Jesus. Other terms I've heard are "type and shadow", which we see with other characters in bible. They are *not* Jesus, of course, but their stories reveal something of the character of the Messiah to come, namely Jesus Christ. One big example, of course, is Moses who delivers God's people from Egypt as a foreshadowing of Jesus delivering us from sin. We see glimmers of Christ Jesus in many others as well, such as Joseph, David, Daniel, and even Esther. Of course these were not perfect people, but they are people and stories God used to point to His One perfect Son who was to come and save us.

What I find fascinating is in John 5:39 when Jesus mentions how the Scriptures testify to Him. At that time there was no NT written, so He was obviously referencing what we call the OT. So would not the book of Job also testify to Jesus? Some think it's Elihu that represents Jesus, but the parallels between Job and Jesus are exceedingly abundantly more obvious and pertinent.

Thank you for your post. God bless you in your work!

 

[tttallison]

Assuming you were affected by Milton? Hope you get power back soon if it's not up already!

Ian took my home of 20 years, but Helene and Milton were not so bad. Yes I have power back as of Saturday.

I see the parallels you are drawing between Job and Israel. There are a lot of things to unpack there, but here are a few thoughts. First of all, I think this supports one of the theories that Moses wrote the book of Job since we know he did write (the majority) of Deuteronomy. (But that is another topic for another day.) Secondly, I think the parallel goes back to your main argument that Job is suffering because of sin (self-righteousness) and God uses this ordeal to ultimately correct Job.

The main take away from Deuteronomy 32 is that Moses gave credit to God.

Deu 32:1-3 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The main take away from Job 29 is that Job gave credit to Job.

Job 29:21-25 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel. After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them. And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain. If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.

It would appear that Elihu wrote the book of Job. That is why Elihu speaks in the first person. Also, Elihu tells us who his father is, and who his kindred are.