The Catholics and my conclusion

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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[video=youtube;XOxpvKuEruk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOxpvKuEruk[/video]
 

Patnubay

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May 27, 2014
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Though I disagree with your interpretation. This was well thought out. I'm sorry if that one comment came off as insulting, I tend to get hyperbolic in trying to emphasize something and in result insulted you. That was wrong.

When we say she was the Ark of the New Covenant, its as epostle put it, the Ark was a "type". What the Ark contained is very similar in "type" to what Mary contained within her womb (Word of God, Source of Justice, the High Priest, the Living Bread).

Pax Christi.
Then we agree to disagree on our interpretations. You have respected mine and I respected yours. To Christ be the glory and peace be with you.
 

epostle

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Oct 24, 2015
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Why do you keep responding with your so-called shotgun style when you have complained against it from others so many times?
Threads normally take a life of their own. The discussion is on justification, and Mary, Mary, Mary...
In ONE post I explained the historic and biblical view of justification.
In ONE post I explained the typology of Mary in the OT as revealed in the NT. The OT is where one must begin in understanding the sense of the sacred, or we go in circles. The next step could be explaining Mary as the New Eve, if anyone wants me to.

Not once did I blast anyone with lists of unrelated topics. Each of my posts were focused on ONE subject. Sometimes I spend several hours researching and composing my posts, and I use Protestant sources whenever I can find them. (nobody owns truth, except the ones on my ignore list).

Your charge of me using shot-gun tactics is unwarranted.
 

Utah

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but according to your philosophy, if a Catholic worships in spirit and truth, they are wrong.
Once anyone takes their eyes off of Jesus, they are no longer worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Catholics are focused much more on Mary and the institution itself than on Jesus. That's a simple fact.
 

Utah

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You haven't a clue what Catholicism teaches, just nonsense that you have been told or from protty cult hate propaganda.
Then specifically refute everything Mec99 stated in post 202. No worries, we'll wait.
 

Patnubay

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May 27, 2014
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Once anyone takes their eyes off of Jesus, they are no longer worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Catholics are focused much more on Mary and the institution itself than on Jesus. That's a simple fact.
Indeed, a very simple fact. I'm just confused why some can't understand. Mary was used by God to be the mother of Jesus. Acknowledged and done. Now, we worship the One the Father sent to us, the one who actually died for our sins. What is so difficult with that?
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Indeed, a very simple fact. I'm just confused why some can't understand. Mary was used by God to be the mother of Jesus. Acknowledged and done. Now, we worship the One the Father sent to us, the one who actually died for our sins. What is so difficult with that?
Very true Patnubay,

The bottom line is, if everything that the RCC teaches regarding Mary and their other teachings was the truth, it would be written all over the new testament in plain print. And Mary as co-mediator, co-savior, queen of heaven, assumed up to heaven, sinless, full of grace, the Eucharist, sacraments, transubstantiation, purgatory, etc., these would all be written about over and over again and we would find them throughout the writings of Paul as well! But the sobering the truth is, not one word can be found in scripture regarding these dogma's, rituals and practices, that is unless you wave your magic wand and distort the bajezzus out of them. A good example of this distortion would be the claim that when Mary and John were at the cross and Jesus said to Mary, "mother behold your son, son behold you mother". And what did the RCC do with that, they interpreted it to mean Mary as being the mother of all humanity! TADA! Talk about grasping at straws!
 

Utah

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Indeed, a very simple fact. I'm just confused why some can't understand. Mary was used by God to be the mother of Jesus. Acknowledged and done. Now, we worship the One the Father sent to us, the one who actually died for our sins. What is so difficult with that?
In the Beatles' song, Let It Be, Paul is singing about his mother, Mary, but Catholics will tell you otherwise. I guess there's no escaping it for them.
 

Utah

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Very true Patnubay,

The bottom line is, if everything that the RCC teaches regarding Mary and their other teachings was the truth, it would be written all over the new testament in plain print.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, God has perfected praise!

Ahwatukee, I don't share the above Scripture to mean that you are young and naive, but rather, what you've shared is so basic, so pure, and so fundamentally sound that it cannot be refuted. Thank you.
 
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A good example of this distortion would be the claim that when Mary and John were at the cross and Jesus said to Mary, "mother behold your son, son behold you mother". And what did the RCC do with that, they interpreted it to mean Mary as being the mother of all humanity! TADA! Talk about grasping at straws!
First, Mother of Humanity is not a title recognized by the RCC. Though some believe this, many Catholics do not, and it has never been officially given as a title by the Church.

Second, we interpret this to mean that Mary is Mother of Christians, with John representing us before the Cross.

Again, you are free to disagree, but please at least be accurate.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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First, Mother of Humanity is not a title recognized by the RCC. Though some believe this, many Catholics do not, and it has never been officially given as a title by the Church.

Second, we interpret this to mean that Mary is Mother of Christians, with John representing us before the Cross.

Again, you are free to disagree, but please at least be accurate.
Well, the fact that it is believed within the RCC and was brought up here by Catholics, means that I was not incorrect and that doesn't explain all the other teachings that were founded by the different counsels and made dogma, which was my point.
 

epostle

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Oct 24, 2015
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Once anyone takes their eyes off of Jesus, they are no longer worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Catholics are focused much more on Mary and the institution itself than on Jesus. That's a simple fact.
No, it's a simple lie.
 

mailmandan

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I never met a "works salvationist".
You have and you don't even realize it. Look all around you at church and look in the mirror. A "works salvationist" is any one who "trusts in works to save them" (regardless of what type of works you label them and even if it's just works in part) and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

Good works are acts of love we do by the grace of Christ. I agree with most of what you say, but faith and love (or works) are inseparable.
Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Do you believe that BOTH faith AND good works are the root of salvation and that we are saved by BOTH faith AND good works? After reading your entire post, obviously you do. So do Mormons.

Francis Beckwith has the best explanation I have seen.

Francis Beckwith resigned on May 5 as president of the Evangelical Theological Society. One week earlier the Baylor University philosophy professor rejoined the Roman Catholic Church, his home until age 14. He spoke with Christianity Today editor David Neff about the reaction to his decision, theological misconceptions, and evangelical strengths and weaknesses.

What good things from the evangelical community will you take back with you to Roman Catholicism?
There is NO chance of me ever going back to Roman Catholicism. I will NEVER trade in my personal relationship with Jesus Christ for legalistic religious bondage to Roman Catholicism. I will NEVER "withdraw" my faith in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and place it in the oppressive works system of Roman Catholicism. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and NEVER ONCE heard a clear gospel presentation preached in the Roman Catholic church. I did hear all about salvation by works though.

Now there's a kind of theological framework, and it doesn't say my salvation depends on me, but it says my virtue counts for something. It's important to allow the grace of God to be exercised through your actions. The evangelical emphasis on the moral life forms my Catholic practice with an added incentive. That was liberating to me.
The Roman Catholic church teaches that, along with faith in Christ (their version of faith), salvation is by personal works also. "If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification). A Roman Catholic author plainly admits, "It is a universally accepted dogma of the Catholic Church that man, in union with the grace of the Holy Spirit must merit heaven by his good works" (Dogmatic Theology for the Laity, 1977). :(

Some of the people who have been critical say, "You've gone into the oppressive works system of Catholicism." That's not the way I look at it at all. I look at it as a chance to do good. My own work apart from God's grace doesn't matter for my salvation; what matters is the sort of person I become by allowing God's grace to work through my obeying his commandments and taking the sacraments. Unfortunately, the view of justification is sometimes presented clumsily by some Catholic laypeople...Q&A: Francis Beckwith | Christianity Today
Do you believe that salvation is through obeying His commandments (have you perfectly obeyed His commandments 100% of the time?) and taking the sacraments? OR through FAITH? Do you understand the difference between placing faith in Christ for salvation and obeying His commandments and taking the sacraments?

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below.
I agree that faith is the ROOT of justification, but good works are the FRUIT, NOT THE ROOT of justification. Did Paul say that we are saved through faith AND good works but not "works of the law" in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO. Paul nowhere says that we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works. Paul goes on to say in verse 10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Works of the law do not exclude the moral aspect of the law, which covers good works. Also, Paul said that we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first.
The Bible clearly teaches in many many passages of Scripture that we are saved (justified in a legal sense) through BELIEF/FAITH "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6,9,11,13; 5:1; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; 3:14,22,26; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You don't need to add the word "alone" next to BELIEF/FAITH in each of these passages of Scripture to figure out that the words BELIEF/FAITH "stand alone" in these many many passages of Scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later).
You just described unbelievers. Even though they may be "religious" and play church, they are not right with God apart from saving faith in Christ.

But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Where you error here is that James is not talking about genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/a dead faith. As I already previously explained to you -
In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
Paul said - Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith (either we are in the faith or else we are not). Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? (either Christ is in us or else He is not)--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! There are many deceived "religious but not right with God" people in the world who think they are saved but are deceived - Matthew 7:22-23. Justification is a one time event. Progressive Sanctification is ongoing. Works salvationists usually mix up justification with ongoing sanctification.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone.
Faith works through love after we have been saved through faith. Paul did not say saved through faith AND love or saved through faith AND good works in Ephesians 2:8,9. We are saved through FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE (NOT BY WORKS). 1 John 4:19 - We love because He first loved us. Romans 5:5 - and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. We are saved through faith, then we receive the Holy Spirit, then as a born again Christian, our faith works through love BECAUSE we are saved, NOT to become saved.

This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
You basically take faith, love and good works, wrap them in a package and simply stamp faith on the package, making no distinction between faith, love and good works. So salvation through faith in Roman Catholicism becomes salvation through faith + acts of love/good works. This is salvation by works and you don't even realize it. Prior to my conversion, before I received Christ through faith, I was confused about faith and good works as well as a Roman Catholic. I basically defined faith as "obedience" and could not make the distinction between faith "and multiple acts of obedience/good works" which follow and are produced "out of faith." I simply defined faith "as obedience/good works." It sounds like you remain in this state of confusion.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Dead faith is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith - James 2:14. This empty profession of faith is by itself (barren of works) because it's dead. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. If faith is alive in Christ then it will produce works and not remain barren of works. James is looking for proof of faith. I will SHOW you my faith by my works.

Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God.
If works are a cause, then Paul would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith AND WORKS in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith AND WORKS in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Once again -
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential, not because it had some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but because it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works - "shown to be righteous." Romans 4:2 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God" 4 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are just explaining saving faith from two different perspectives. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.


 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.”
Scripture says that we are saved through faith, which is in Christ. Faith in Christ saves. Faith in works condemns (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-6).

Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together.
I showed you from Scripture where Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2,3 many years BEFORE Abraham was said to be "justified by works" in (James 2:21; Genesis 22). James said that we SHOW our faith by our works (James 2:18) NOT establish our faith by our works. In Ephesians 2:5, Paul said -
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) 8 THROUGH FAITH 9 NOT WORKS 10 CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS. *Notice the order. So justified by works does not mean saved by works. You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture.

Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.”
Scripture says that we are FIRST saved through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and also that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). So genuine faith results in producing good works or else it's a dead faith, not a living faith. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. Simple!

Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action),
Amen!
:)

and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
Here is where you "add" works to salvation through faith. You are a works salvationists and you don't even realize it. James 2:22 -
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or substantiating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous/saved because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and vindicated/substantiated/evidenced the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus' teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.
Without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) no matter how many "so-called" good works that works salvationists attempt to conjure up through the flesh. We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. So now your equation extends to saved through faith + love + being pure + being merciful + being a peacemaker + good works. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have accomplished all of these things "sufficiently enough" so now you have a right relationship with God and will be saved? Does God grade on a curve in your self righteous system of works salvation? :rolleyes:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God.
Please show me the words "justified by faith in God" in Genesis 12:1-4. Does this passage say that Abraham left his country and it was accounted to him for righteousness? NO. What does Genesis 15:6 say that Genesis 12:1-4 doesn't say?

Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.
Please show me the word "justified" in Hebrews 11:8-10. It says that by or "out of" faith
Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By "out of" faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Does it say that at this point Abraham's faith was "accounted to him for righteousness?" NO. Now read Genesis 15:5-6 and Romans 4:2-3. The Bible does not talk about justification increasing over time. Either we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1) or else we are not. There is no middle ground. You are reading these verses through the lens of works salvation.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.
Again, please show me the word "justified" in these verses. Why do you insist on "adding" to what Scripture says?

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.
Further justified? You are completely confused. Genesis 15:6 says that Abraham believed the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness. We don't read that Abraham was "justified" or "accounted as righteous" 25 years earlier. You have proved nothing except that you are unable to see anything beyond your Roman Catholic indoctrination.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23).
More confusion on your part. Once again, in the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), *not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God* (Romans 4:2-3). In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Until you understand this, you will continue to remain confused and promote your "increasing justification" nonsense in order to accommodate your "works based" false gospel and get around the truth. :rolleyes:

These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
Actually, they don't prove that at all. So here we have it straight from the horses mouth! You said that justification is an "ongoing process" and is accomplished by faith AND WORKS. You clearly teach "salvation by works" no matter how much you try and sugar coat it! I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and listened to their teachings on faith AND WORKS so you are not fooling me with your sugar coated double talk.

"Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9" refers to works of the law, not good works.
In the first place, you cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and Paul simply said works/works of righteousness/our works in Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 and did not spell out that this is limited to specific works of the law then elsewhere say that we are saved by good works. This is merely a desperate attempt by you and the Roman Catholic church to "get around" the truth and accommodate your/their "works based" false gospel.

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law.
So you admit, teachings of the MORAL aspect of the law as well and not simply the ceremonial aspect. The moral aspect of the law includes the 10 commandments. ALL GOOD WORKS ARE COVERED under the MORAL aspect of the law. So much for your argument of saved by "these" works, just not "those" works.

James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois."
Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works.
How can they be entirely different types of works when i
n James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Is giving a brother or sister things needed for the body (clothing and food) loving your neighbor as yourself? Is this not in the law? Leviticus 19:18 - ..but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Jesus said that one of the two great commandments is love your neighbor as yourself and along with loving God with all our heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:39) on these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. Your "not saved by works of the law but saved by good works" argument is bogus but is about the only desperate attempt to get around the truth that you could possibly come up with. Faith in the Roman Catholic system of works salvation is bondage. Faith in Christ is freedom.

Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Paul and James do not contradict each other. It's you who contradicts the Scriptures. Not saved by works of the law but saved by good works is not properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture. Once again, the harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do/shown to be righteous.

Moreover Paul could not have limited the concept of "works" to the Torah. He presented the Patriarch Abraham as the primary witness to his doctrine. He wrote:

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works of any kind) was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not faith and good works) is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:1-6).

In this context "justified by works" could not refer exclusively to obedience of the Torah, for Abraham lived many centuries before Moses. It is therefore wrong to force Paul’s concept of "not justified by works" exclusively to limited works in the Law of Moses. Clearly Paul applies the same principle to works in general. Abraham could not boast before God because he was justified by faith (accounted as righteous) and not by works (Romans 4:2-3); but Abraham was justified by works in a different sense - "shown to be righteous" in James chapter 2. The same applies to us all.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Your charge of me using shot-gun tactics is unwarranted.
No it is not. You complain and complain about it when others do it, but continue to post your walls of text. There is a word for that, and the shoe fits you.
 
J

JohnGod

Guest
So as many of you know I made a thread explaining that I joined a Catholic forum to better understand them and their faith and to see if what is said about them is true or not. first and foremost some of them are indeed saved, just like Christianity they have many denominations and views and doctrines within the Catholic faith however there are some who call themselves Catholics but express a deep love and passion for God and others I was amazed at the fire I saw in some of them.

i will admit though for the most part they are much more about traditions and such, they believe that the Catholic church is the sole authority to teach and that Peter was the first pope although they have no real evidence of this. They also do not test all their beliefs with scriptures like we do they call this sola scripture and say it is a false teaching and some even doubt that the bible is the word of God at all. Water baptism is apparently what saves us according to some of them others say it's Jesus blood but mainly most of them say it's water baptism itself but also then comes the blood.

in short both Catholics and Christians misunderstand each other, both sides believe that they are the ones who are right and on both sides some are simply hateful about the other religion and say that the other faith is pagan but they also have those among them who say not all are unsaved.
So my conclusion is that yes I admit many of them are not saved because they hold much more value and authority in the church and traditions than the bible and God himself but also some are saved holding many Christian values but go by Catholic and do still hold some of the traditions of the Catholic faith but make it a point to focus on the love and relationship with God in order to grow and become strong in him. I won't be going there much anymore because I found the evidence and truth I sought after, it is said that the Catholic faith is pagan and for the most part i would agree but not all of them are.

JohnGod share
First of all, we shouldn’t convict that: The RCC itself is pagan and not saved through and through. God is calling those who belong to him to come away from her pagan practices and rituals, which is spiritual adultery.
We should question ourselves:
Nowadays, was I saved??
How do I know??
How is the relationship between me and God?
I and God are ONE??
How will I be right after dying???
Please share your experience..
 
Feb 6, 2015
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You should be looking at the empty Cross and empty Tomb
I will agree that the empty tomb was and is about God the Father’s love for us as His Son suffered and died for us, and then rose from the dead to conquer death not only for himself, but for those who will be saved and live forever with God. However, as far as putting our focus on the empty Cross, you seem to be forgetting something. It wasn’t an empty cross that redeemed the sins of the world. It was the cross that hung the body of Jesus Christ. It is his sacrifice and death that saves us.

This is why the crucufix is displayed so prominently in our Catholic Churches.Displaying a crucifix reminds us of the most important thing God did for us. It is the ultimate sign of how much He loves us. In 1 Cor.2:2, St. Paul says to preach Christ crucified. What better visual aide is there to such preaching than a crucifix? And in fact, Galations 3:1 actually refers to Christ being "publicly portrayed as crucified" to them (i.e. seems like they were looking at a crucifix). That’s not to say Catholics have anything against empty crosses. We use those all the time, too. I’m just pointing out that the image of Christ crucified is a very biblical one.

In closing.....The action of Love (what and who God is) is best seen in the ultimate act of love showed on the cross. The most important part of the crucifix is Jesus, not the wood. So, as to quote you....."And therein lies the problem", our focus should be on the action and person on the cross, not on the execution device as you suggest.
 

Pax Christi