The Error is Baptism in Jesus name only for salvation

[SomeDisciple]

Im curious what you mean by vicarious baptisms ?

Okay; so, a "vicarious baptism" would be someone getting baptized in someone else's place.

Certain people assert that "those baptized for the dead" means they were trying to baptize dead people "vicariously" by being baptized "for" them.

There is no way that Paul would point out that people were doing something like this without correcting it.

People that teach water-baptismal-regeneration like the idea that vicarious baptism happened, (even if it is wrong) because people would not do something like that unless they believed in water-baptismal regeneration in the first place.

 

[DeepSeeker]

Please expand.

I add this to My statement on Baptism.
There are two kinds of baptism. First, there is water baptism which John The Baptist practiced. After Jesus cane into Isreal, water baptism WAS SET ASIDE, AND BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD WAS USHERED IN.
Yet Today, many still practice water baptism, when They should not! When doing That, One sets aside the Holy Spirit and used natural water in Its' place!
I desire to follow The Spirit, not man!

DeepSeeker

 

[Wansvic]

No he didn't. Think about how stupid that is. He spent half the letter correcting everything they were doing wrong; only to glaze over that kind of malpractice? That's ridiculous, and you know it is.

O-P's stole baptismal regeneration doctrine from Tertulllian- and when they did, they also took his wrong explanation of that verse from chapter 15.

Paul was making a point. He questions why people are getting baptized for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected.

Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical it speaks to the fact that born again believers realized their own water baptism played a part in their spiritual rebirth. As such, it is reasonable to conclude they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives or friends who had not obeyed the command themselves before meeting their demise.

Clearly, repentance and water baptism hold no significance without belief in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ sacrifice is what makes the NT spiritual rebirth possible at all. Even though Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, not all will have their personal sins washed away. It is through one's belief and obedience to God's plan of salvation that all are given the opportunity to become born again children of God.

 

[Wansvic]

The apostle Paul, who was sent to The Gentiles to preach to Them, did not water baptize. So why do churches Today do that?
Is it water, or is it The Spirt of God that spiritually baptized One? Paul did not water Baptize; then why do people do that Today?
I think It's a show!
Deepseeker

You are mistaken. In Acts 19 it's recorded that Paul baptized 12 men and then stayed in the area for two years teaching both Jews and Gentiles. (verses 5-10)

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

 

[Wansvic]

I add this to My statement on Baptism.
There are two kinds of baptism. First, there is water baptism which John The Baptist practiced. After Jesus cane into Isreal, water baptism WAS SET ASIDE, AND BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD WAS USHERED IN.
Yet Today, many still practice water baptism, when They should not! When doing That, One sets aside the Holy Spirit and used natural water in Its' place!
I desire to follow The Spirit, not man!

DeepSeeker

The NT establishes both obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin and receiving the Holy Ghost are required as revealed at Pentecost. (Acts 2:4, 38-42) And confirmed in the detailed accounts related to all groups of humanity. (Acts 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)

 

[tablet123]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Why were Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans baptized in the name of Jesus.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Whatever we do in word or deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not names but titles.

And it is name singular.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jesus created all things.

He came in flesh.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

He dwells in us.

 

[tablet123]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Why were Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans baptized in the name of Jesus.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Whatever we do in word or deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not names but titles.

And it is name singular.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jesus created all things.

He came in flesh.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

He dwells in us.

 

[SomeDisciple]

As such, it is reasonable to conclude they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives or friends who had not obeyed the command themselves before meeting their demise.

I know it seems reasonable, that's why Tertullian; being a lawyer, came to that conclusion. But what is not reasonable, is that Paul would write an epistle that lays down the church "traditions/ordinances" and not tell people who are doing this that they are wrong and need to stop.

What Paul is really questioning is the motives of "Christians" who do not actually believe in the resurrection. What he is doing is showing them the fork-in-the-road. Saying there is no resurrection is not some trivial wobble in faith: if people are saying this their faith is gone. As Paul said it is shameful to have this in the church.

 

[Wansvic]

I know it seems reasonable, that's why Tertullian; being a lawyer, came to that conclusion. But what is not reasonable, is that Paul would write an epistle that lays down the church "traditions/ordinances" and not tell people who are doing this that they are wrong and need to stop.

What Paul is really questioning is the motives of "Christians" who do not actually believe in the resurrection. What he is doing is showing them the fork-in-the-road. Saying there is no resurrection is not some trivial wobble in faith: if people are saying this their faith is gone. As Paul said it is shameful to have this in the church.

The entire post expresses that people understood sins were remitted upon obedience to water baptism:
Paul was making a point. He questions why people are getting baptized for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected.

Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical it speaks to the fact that born again believers realized their own water baptism played a part in their spiritual rebirth. As such, it is reasonable to conclude they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives or friends who had not obeyed the command themselves before meeting their demise.

Clearly, repentance and water baptism hold no significance without belief in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Jesus’ sacrifice is what makes the NT spiritual rebirth possible at all. Even though Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, not all will have their personal sins washed away. It is through one's belief and obedience to God's plan of salvation that all are given the opportunity to become born again children of God.

 

[TrustandObey]

View attachment 277144

 

[posthuman]

faith alone saves - - you don't get to ignore that just because of how James encourages the complacent to act.

faith alone saves, and the faith which saves, is not alone.

does God not work in the heart of those who trust in Him, both to will and to do?

 

[TrustandObey]

faith alone saves - - you don't get to ignore that just because of how James encourages the complacent to act.

James is not "encouraging" anything. He is correcting the notion that faith alone is useful.

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James 2:20)

faith alone saves, and the faith which saves, is not alone.

If it is the faith which is never alone that saves then faith alone cannot save.

does God not work in the heart of those who trust in Him, both to will and to do?

John 14:21
"The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father. I also will love him and will reveal myself to him.”

Having his commands but not keeping them is faith alone theology and death.
Having his commands and keeping them is the gospel and life

It is the faith alone regeneration theology groups that seem to have no heart for God or trust in His commands.

Abraham was commanded to kill his only son. Abraham did not feel the need to cross-examine the command or cross-reference with other commands. Abraham simply obeyed and he was called the friend of God. Abraham's heart was right with God and this is why he is mentioned in James 2.

 

[Wansvic]

James is not "encouraging" anything. He is correcting the notion that faith alone is useful.

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James 2:20)


If it is the faith which is never alone that saves then faith alone cannot save.



John 14:21
"The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father. I also will love him and will reveal myself to him.”

Having his commands but not keeping them is faith alone theology and death.
Having his commands and keeping them is the gospel and life

It is the faith alone regeneration theology groups that seem to have no heart for God or trust in His commands.

Abraham was commanded to kill his only son. Abraham did not feel the need to cross-examine the command or cross-reference with other commands. Abraham simply obeyed and he was called the friend of God. Abraham's heart was right with God and this is why he is mentioned in James 2.

You make such a great point!
"Abraham did not feel the need to cross-examine the command or cross-reference with other commands. Abraham simply obeyed and he was called the friend of God. Abraham's heart was right with God and this is why he is mentioned in James 2."

 

[mailmandan]

faith alone saves - - you don't get to ignore that just because of how James encourages the complacent to act.

faith alone saves, and the faith which saves, is not alone.

does God not work in the heart of those who trust in Him, both to will and to do?

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Follower777]

Chapter 15?

"As already noted, baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place ( Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3–4). "

Excuse me, for "butting" in on y'all's conversation here, ( I was just passing by ) ... but your statement that, "baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place," ( jumped out to me ) being such a false statement.

Baptism is a significant spiritual act that represents a person's commitment to God and a new birth in Christ, being an outward sign of an inward transformation, symbolizing the forgiveness of sins and the believer's desire to follow Christ.

It's the outward sign of the spiritual conversion and born again experience, into the likeness of Christ. The putting on of the ROBE
of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Without which you are NOT a Christian.. Not a follower of Jesus ... NOT His disciple... (Matt 28:19,20) ... and NOT SAVED ...

Baptism's Role and Significance:

• Symbol of Conversion and Repentance: Baptism symbolizes repentance, the remission of sins, and a new relationship with God. It is an outward expression of the internal change a person undergoes when they accept Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. ~~ Matthew 3:11 (NIV): “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
• Identification with Christ: Through baptism, the believer identifies with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, symbolizing a death to sin and a new life in Christ. ~~ Romans 6:3-4 (NIV): “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?

• Essential for Salvation: Baptism is essential for salvation. It is not a mere formality but a necessary step in the process of salvation for those who are of accountable age and are able to understand and accept the gospel. Baptism is a command given by Christ, and it is through baptism that one publicly demonstrates faith and obedience to Christ. ~~ Mark 16:16 (NIV): “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
  • Jesus directly connects belief and baptism with salvation, showing that it is an essential step for those who wish to be saved
• Spiritual Transformation Over Physical Ritual: However, she clarifies that the spiritual transformation is more important than the physical act. The faith, repentance, and conversion that baptism represents are what ultimately matter for salvation. ~~ 1 Peter 3:21 (NIV): “And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is a requirement for salvation, as it signifies a personal commitment to Christ and is an essential part of the believer's journey. However, the experience and genuine transformation behind the baptism are what truly matter, not just the act itself.
Blessed Sabbath Y'all

 

[wattie]

Excuse me, for "butting" in on y'all's conversation here, ( I was just passing by ) ... but your statement that, "baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place," ( jumped out to me ) being such a false statement.

Baptism is a significant spiritual act that represents a person's commitment to God and a new birth in Christ, being an outward sign of an inward transformation, symbolizing the forgiveness of sins and the believer's desire to follow Christ.

It's the outward sign of the spiritual conversion and born again experience, into the likeness of Christ. The putting on of the ROBE
of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Without which you are NOT a Christian.. Not a follower of Jesus ... NOT His disciple... (Matt 28:19,20) ... and NOT SAVED ...

Baptism's Role and Significance:

• Symbol of Conversion and Repentance: Baptism symbolizes repentance, the remission of sins, and a new relationship with God. It is an outward expression of the internal change a person undergoes when they accept Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. ~~ Matthew 3:11 (NIV): “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
• Identification with Christ: Through baptism, the believer identifies with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, symbolizing a death to sin and a new life in Christ. ~~ Romans 6:3-4 (NIV): “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?

• Essential for Salvation: Baptism is essential for salvation. It is not a mere formality but a necessary step in the process of salvation for those who are of accountable age and are able to understand and accept the gospel. Baptism is a command given by Christ, and it is through baptism that one publicly demonstrates faith and obedience to Christ. ~~ Mark 16:16 (NIV): “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
  • Jesus directly connects belief and baptism with salvation, showing that it is an essential step for those who wish to be saved
• Spiritual Transformation Over Physical Ritual: However, she clarifies that the spiritual transformation is more important than the physical act. The faith, repentance, and conversion that baptism represents are what ultimately matter for salvation. ~~ 1 Peter 3:21 (NIV): “And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is a requirement for salvation, as it signifies a personal commitment to Christ and is an essential part of the believer's journey. However, the experience and genuine transformation behind the baptism are what truly matter, not just the act itself.
Blessed Sabbath Y'all

Not saved without water baptism?

The condition on not having eternal life is not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

See John 5:24, 6:40

Water baptism represents conversion, symbolizes it.. but doesn't remove "the filth of the flesh'.

I took an aspirin 'for' a cold. I had the cold before taking aspirin.

I got water baptism 'for' the remission of sins.

I already had remission of sins.

 

[BillG]

Baptism is a requirement for salvation, as it signifies a personal commitment to Christ and is an essential part of the believer's journey. However, the experience and genuine transformation behind the baptism are what truly matter, not just the act itself.
Blessed Sabbath Y'all

I'm confused.

You say baptism saves and it's essential to a believers journey?
Yet the experience (I assume baptism) and the transformation itself is what truly matters but not the act itself (baptism)?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Baptism saves yet the act itself does not, it's the transformation that matters.

So why/what does it matter?

Do you believe baptism saves or our works save?

 

[TrustandObey]

Not saved without water baptism?

The condition on not having eternal life is not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

See John 5:24, 6:40

Saved without the remission of sins?

The condition on having eternal life is the remission of sins.

See Acts 2:38, 22:16

Water baptism represents conversion, symbolizes it.. but doesn't remove "the filth of the flesh'.

Water baptism does not "represent" conversion it is the moment of conversion.

I took an aspirin 'for' a cold. I had the cold before taking aspirin.

I got water baptism 'for' the remission of sins.

I already had remission of sins.

You took aspirin so that you could get a cold??? I take aspirin to get relief from a cold.


Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

You get water baptized to get the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not because I already have both of them. What Bible are you using?

 

[BillG]

Saved without the remission of sins?

The condition on having eternal life is the remission of sins.

See Acts 2:38, 22:16


Water baptism does not "represent" conversion it is the moment of conversion.



You took aspirin so that you could get a cold??? I take aspirin to get relief from a cold.


Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

You get water baptized to get the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not because I already have both of them. What Bible are you using?

So we are only saved baptism?

 

[wattie]

Saved without the remission of sins?

The condition on having eternal life is the remission of sins.

See Acts 2:38, 22:16


Water baptism does not "represent" conversion it is the moment of conversion.



You took aspirin so that you could get a cold??? I take aspirin to get relief from a cold.


Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

You get water baptized to get the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not because I already have both of them. What Bible are you using?

Receiving the Holy Spirit sometimes happened in Acts after baptism in water because sometimes it was an entire group of believers who recieved Him 'in the midst'.

Already converted believers who become a church with the Holy Spirit 'in the midst'.

See Matthew 28:18-20

There is also the example of Acts 19, where either the Holy Spirit hadn't been given yet, so they weren't indwelled yet, so although called disciples, they weren't converted yet. Upon conversion they were then baptised in water.

Or the other way to look at it, is they were already converted, but hadn't received the Holy Spirit 'in the midst ' to be a church. They got baptized again the right way, and became a church with the reception of the Holy Spirit.

Either way..saved before water baptism.