THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST.

[Ash_JFF]

another good post ash

Thanks again

 

[wakeup]

With respect, you're belief on the eucharist is not biblical. The veil was torn at the time of Jesus death on the cross only thus signifying that there is no longer a separation between God and us. We are able to be saved now by the grace of God through Jesus.

There is only one sacrifice (Hebrews 9:27-28, 10:14) and the implications of that sacrifice extends into eternity past and eternity future from that moment on the cross.

The eucharist does NOTHING to tear any veil between us and God. ONLY Jesus did that. The eucharist does not make Jesus' sacrifice "present today". Jesus' sacrifice is the ONLY thing that can save us. There is nothing else needed for that sacrifice to be "present today" for us.

People can take the eucharist all they want to but that will do nothing to gain salvation. People can still be unbelievers when taking it. Communion has become such a tradition that ANYONE can take it whether saved or unsaved, however only to the saved does it actually mean something. It brings into remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross.

Tell me, if a person never has taken the eucharist, are they saved? If anyone believes that salvation is ALSO based on the eucharist then they are very wrong!

Breaking bread and drinking of the wine is in remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross. The actual bread and wine does not save us just as baptism does not save us. It is by the grace of God only through Jesus. Nothing else is needed and it is our ability to believe that are not.

I AGREE WITH YOU, WE CAN ONLY COME TO GOD TROUGH HIS WORD AND HIS WORD IS JESUS
THE MORE WE EAT THE WORD THE MORE WE FILL OURSELVES WITH THE SPIRIT,AND THAT SPIRIT
WILL RAISE US INTO A NEW BODY LIKE CHRIST. BREAD MADE BY MENS HANDS WONT PROFIT
ANYTHING, BUT A FULL BELLY.

 

[wakeup]

You point out that the flesh means nothing and the spirit is everything. Yet right before that we have Our Lord Himself telling us that unless we eat His Flesh, we will have no life in us. So apparently it makes sense to you that Our Lord tells us that we need to eat His flesh, and that in the very next sentence He tells you that it means nothing?

There are indeed many times when Our Lord is symbolic, and it's quite clear from the context as well as from the actual text of the Greek texts that this is not one of those instances.

Matt. 16:12 - in this verse, Jesus explains His metaphorical use of the term "bread." In John 6, He eliminates any metaphorical possibilities.

John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.

John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times "I AM the bread from heaven." It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this "new" bread which must be consumed.

John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word "phago" nine times. "Phago" literally means "to eat" or "physically consume." Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus' literal usage of "eat." So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as "trogo," which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where "trogo" is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus' words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where "sarx" means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 - further, the phrases "real" food and "real" drink use the word "alethes." "Alethes" means "really" or "truly," and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus' flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus' disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, "Who can 'listen' to it (much less understand it)?" To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."

John 6:63 - Protestants often argue that Jesus' use of the phrase "the spirit gives life" shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where "spirit" means "symbolic." As we have seen, the use of "spirit" relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

John 6:66-67 - many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn't Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn't Jesus say, "Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!"? Because they understood correctly.

Mark 4:34 - Jesus always explained to His disciples the real meanings of His teachings. He never would have let them go away with a false impression, most especially in regard to a question about eternal salvation.

John 6:37 - Jesus says He would not drive those away from Him. They understood Him correctly but would not believe.

John 3:5,11; Matt. 16:11-12 - here are some examples of Jesus correcting wrong impressions of His teaching. In the Eucharistic discourse, Jesus does not correct the scandalized disciples.

John 6:64,70 - Jesus ties the disbelief in the Real Presence of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist to Judas' betrayal. Those who don't believe in this miracle betray Him.

Psalm 27:2; Isa. 9:20; 49:26; Mic. 3:3; 2 Sam. 23:17; Rev. 16:6; 17:6, 16 - to further dispense with the Protestant claim that Jesus was only speaking symbolically, these verses demonstrate that symbolically eating body and blood is always used in a negative context of a physical assault. It always means “destroying an enemy,” not becoming intimately close with him. Thus, if Jesus were speaking symbolically in John 6:51-58, He would be saying to us, "He who reviles or assaults me has eternal life." This, of course, is absurd.

John 10:7 - Protestants point out that Jesus did speak metaphorically about Himself in other places in Scripture. For example, here Jesus says, "I am the door." But in this case, no one asked Jesus if He was literally made of wood. They understood him metaphorically.

John 15:1,5 - here is another example, where Jesus says, "I am the vine." Again, no one asked Jesus if He was literally a vine. In John 6, Jesus' disciples did ask about His literal speech (that this bread was His flesh which must be eaten). He confirmed that His flesh and blood were food and drink indeed. Many disciples understood Him and left Him.

Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18 – Jesus says He will not drink of the “fruit of the vine” until He drinks it new in the kingdom. Some Protestants try to use this verse (because Jesus said “fruit of the vine”) to prove the wine cannot be His blood. But the Greek word for fruit is “genneema” which literally means “that which is generated from the vine.” In John 15:1,5 Jesus says “I am the vine.” So “fruit of the vine” can also mean Jesus’ blood. In 1 Cor. 11:26-27, Paul also used “bread” and “the body of the Lord” interchangeably in the same sentence. Also, see Matt. 3:7;12:34;23:33 for examples were “genneema” means “birth” or “generation.”

Rom. 14:14-18; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 1 Tim. 4:3 – Protestants often argue that drinking blood and eating certain sacrificed meats were prohibited in the New Testament, so Jesus would have never commanded us to consume His body and blood. But these verses prove them wrong, showing that Paul taught all foods, even meat offered to idols, strangled, or with blood, could be consumed by the Christian if it didn’t bother the brother’s conscience and were consumed with thanksgiving to God.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says we must become like children, or we will not enter the kingdom of God. We must believe Jesus' words with child-like faith. Because Jesus says this bread is His flesh, we believe by faith, even though it surpasses our understanding.

Luke 1:37 - with God, nothing is impossible. If we can believe in the incredible reality of the Incarnation, we can certainly believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. God coming to us in elements He created is an extension of the awesome mystery of the Incarnation.

JESUS IS NOW SPIRIT AND HIS FLESH IS SPITIT, NOT BREAD MADE BY THE BAKER,
JESUS ALWAYS HAS BEEN THE WORD OF GOD(JOHN1 HE OFFERED US THE WORD IN PRINT TO
DIGEST.

 

[dscherck]

With respect, you're belief on the eucharist is not biblical. The veil was torn at the time of Jesus death on the cross only thus signifying that there is no longer a separation between God and us. We are able to be saved now by the grace of God through Jesus.

There is only one sacrifice (Hebrews 9:27-28, 10:14) and the implications of that sacrifice extends into eternity past and eternity future from that moment on the cross.

The eucharist does NOTHING to tear any veil between us and God. ONLY Jesus did that. The eucharist does not make Jesus' sacrifice "present today". Jesus' sacrifice is the ONLY thing that can save us. There is nothing else needed for that sacrifice to be "present today" for us.

People can take the eucharist all they want to but that will do nothing to gain salvation. People can still be unbelievers when taking it. Communion has become such a tradition that ANYONE can take it whether saved or unsaved, however only to the saved does it actually mean something. It brings into remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross.

Tell me, if a person never has taken the eucharist, are they saved? If anyone believes that salvation is ALSO based on the eucharist then they are very wrong!

Breaking bread and drinking of the wine is in remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross. The actual bread and wine does not save us just as baptism does not save us. It is by the grace of God only through Jesus. Nothing else is needed and it is our ability to believe that are not.

The Eucharist IS the same exact sacrifice made by Jesus. It's the one sacrifice spoken of in Hebrews 9:27-28, 10:14. It exists in time and out of time as well. Perpetual and unending. He offers Himself to us in the Eucharist perpetually for the salvation of our souls because of His unending love for us. To me, it is enough to accept Him at His word. The bread and wine are His Flesh, and His Blood. Are you saying that He, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who we know from the Scriptures can turn even the stones of the earth into children of Abraham, is somehow incapable of turning bread and wine into His Flesh and Blood?

 

[dscherck]

WHAT HE S SAYING IS TO FEED ON HIS WORD.FOR HIS WORD IS SPIRIT.

""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


Seems to me you need to explain to Our Lord how when He tells us His Flesh is true food that He's not really saying that.

 

[zone]

The Eucharist IS the same exact sacrifice made by Jesus. It's the one sacrifice spoken of in Hebrews 9:27-28, 10:14. It exists in time and out of time as well. Perpetual and unending. He offers Himself to us in the Eucharist perpetually for the salvation of our souls because of His unending love for us. To me, it is enough to accept Him at His word. The bread and wine are His Flesh, and His Blood. Are you saying that He, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who we know from the Scriptures can turn even the stones of the earth into children of Abraham, is somehow incapable of turning bread and wine into His Flesh and Blood?

hi DS:
your salvation is achieved or maintained through the "eucharist"?
is that what you are saying?

 

[wakeup]

Jesus said the bread and wine are for remembrance. As it says here,

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

THE WORD WE MUST EAT, AND THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD.
SO HOW DO WE EAT THE WORD?
BY SEARCHING THE SCRIBTURES, FOR THAT GIVES US STRENGTH AND A SOLID FOUNDATION
SO WE WONT BE BLOWN BY THE WIND WHERE EVER IT GOES.

WAKEUP.

 

[wakeup]

""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


Seems to me you need to explain to Our Lord how when He tells us His Flesh is true food that He's not really saying that.

HE IS SAYING WHAT HE IS SAYING.
HAVE YOU READ JOHN1:1 ? JESUS IS THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH.
JESUS IS NOW BACK INTO SPIRIT SO HIS SUBSTANCE IS SPIRIT.
THE BIBLE IS THE WORD , LEARN OF ME JESUS SAID. SO READ THE SCRIBTURES AND STUDY IT
THAT IS HOW YOU FILL YOUR SELVES WITH THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST.SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE
AND YOU WILL BE CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT.( THE WORDS THAT YOU READ IN THE SCR.ARE SPIRIT ) IT HAS POWER. IT CHANGES PEOPLE, IT RENEWS THE SOUL.IT GIVES YOU PEACE, AND
CONFIDENCE TO FACE THE LORD. BECAUSE HE WILL ASK YOU WHEN YOU MEET HIM.
WITH NO SPIRITUAL CLOTHING ON. '' WHY ARE YOU NAKED '' ?
I HOPE THIS WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND A BIT MORE.

WAKEUP

 

[wakeup]

""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


Seems to me you need to explain to Our Lord how when He tells us His Flesh is true food that He's not really saying that.

HE MEANS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS SAYING ., IT IS JUST A MATTER OF LOOKING DEEPER INTO THE
SENTENCE. AND ALSO KNOWING WHO JESUS REALY IS. REMEMBER LUKE10:22.
NO MAN KNOWS THE SON AND NO MAN KNOWS THE FATHER. HE REALLY MEANS WHAT HE SAYS.

WAKEUP.

 

[dscherck]

hi DS:
your salvation is achieved or maintained through the "eucharist"?
is that what you are saying?

Who do you think the Eucharist is?

 

[zone]

Who do you think the Eucharist is?

hi DS:

trick question?

The Lord's Table is the Memorial Cup and Bread, we partake of it in Remembrance of The Body Given and the Blood Shed for our sins.

the bread is bread and the wine is wine.

The Lord's Table doesn't infuse us with grace or righteousness or holiness or anything else: they are bread and wine, not a WHO.

partaking of the bread and wine does not justify us before God.

neither did eating manna (bread from heaven), nor a passover lamb.

those things are symbols of Jesus Christ.

~ but, this discussion has gone on a long time, hasn't it...z

 

[dscherck]

It's meant to be a trick question. You see, the ancient Christian belief, still held by not only the Catholics, but the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is that Our Lord Jesus is really, truly present in the Eucharist. Not just spiritually, but physically as well. While I know that the Roman Catholics have formally defined the concept of Transubstantiation in order to combat various misunderstandings in history, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox both view the Eucharist the same way. It is Our Lord Jesus Christ, made present to us. I myself prefer to think of it as a holy mystery. For me, it's enough to accept that Our Lord said that it is His Flesh and His Blood. The early Christians believed it, He's certainly capable of doing it, who am I to doubt His words?

It's really a joyful experience to, to realize that I am in the spiritual AND physical presence of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It helps bring me closer to Him! And that's why I really want people to understand the wonder of this gift. Jesus is really, truly offering Himself to us. Completely. Not just spiritually, but both spiritually AND physically. How wonderous is Our Lord!

 

[zone]

It's meant to be a trick question. You see, the ancient Christian belief, still held by not only the Catholics, but the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is that Our Lord Jesus is really, truly present in the Eucharist. Not just spiritually, but physically as well. While I know that the Roman Catholics have formally defined the concept of Transubstantiation in order to combat various misunderstandings in history, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox both view the Eucharist the same way. It is Our Lord Jesus Christ, made present to us. I myself prefer to think of it as a holy mystery. For me, it's enough to accept that Our Lord said that it is His Flesh and His Blood. The early Christians believed it, He's certainly capable of doing it, who am I to doubt His words?

It's really a joyful experience to, to realize that I am in the spiritual AND physical presence of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It helps bring me closer to Him! And that's why I really want people to understand the wonder of this gift. Jesus is really, truly offering Himself to us. Completely. Not just spiritually, but both spiritually AND physically. How wonderous is Our Lord!

thanks DS.
yes, i know about the eucharist.
transubstantiation and all that.
thanks.
zone.

 

[PBUH]

WHAT IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST?
JOHN6:54 WHOSO EATETH MY FLESH AND DRINKETH MY
BLOOD HATH ETERNAL LIFE AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT
THE LAST DAY.
55. FOR MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED AND MY BLOOD IS DRINK
INDEED
56. HE THAT EATETH MY FLESH AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD
DWELLETH AND I IN HIM.
57. AS THE LIVING FATHER HAT SENT ME AND I LIVE BY THE FATHER SO HE THAT EATETH ME EVEN HE SHALL LIVE BY ME.
THIS IS THAT BREAD THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN NOT
AS YOUR FATHERS DID EAT MANNA AND ARE DEAD :HE THAT EATETH OF THIS BREAD SHALL LIVE FOREVER.
QUESTION, WHY MUST WE AET HIS FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD?ARE WE CANNIBALS?
JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD ( THE WORD IS SPIRIT ).
SO WE MUST FILL OURSELVES WITH THE WORD OF GOD TO
HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. WE NEED TO SEEK KNOWLEDGE
TO BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND TEMPTATION AND THE GREAT
DELUSION TO COME VERY SOON. JESUS ALSO SAID IN VERSE 63.
----THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU ,THEY ARE SPIRIT AND
THEY ARE LIFE.

WAKEUP.

Hi WAKEUP'

What did the scribes of Matthew Luke and Mark have to say about this important living bread speech ?

 

[Crazy4GODword]

Uh this is a hard teaching for those who do not understand. They did not get what Jesus was talking about, Jesus came to bring Spiritual life but yet the Jews thought physical.

Aleichem shalom

 

[dscherck]

Uh this is a hard teaching for those who do not understand. They did not get what Jesus was talking about, Jesus came to bring Spiritual life but yet the Jews thought physical.

Aleichem shalom

Actually, the problem was that the Jews understood Him perfectly but refused to accept His teachings. He Himself told them that without the Holy Spirit they would be unable to do so. "My words are spirit and life."

The idea that when He said "my words are Spirit" implies He was speaking metaphorically completely negates the lesson that He was teaching. And in all of the Scriptures, not once does the term "spirit" refer to "symbolic"

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."

Without the Spirit, you cannot accept His hard teaching. But with the grace of the Holy Spirit, you will be able to accept His word and understand that the bread and wine are truly His Flesh and His Blood.

 

[zone]

Actually, the problem was that the Jews understood Him perfectly but refused to accept His teachings. He Himself told them that without the Holy Spirit they would be unable to do so. "My words are spirit and life."

The idea that when He said "my words are Spirit" implies He was speaking metaphorically completely negates the lesson that He was teaching. And in all of the Scriptures, not once does the term "spirit" refer to "symbolic"

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of "spirit versus flesh" to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the "spirit/flesh" comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still "in the flesh."

Without the Spirit, you cannot accept His hard teaching. But with the grace of the Holy Spirit, you will be able to accept His word and understand that the bread and wine are truly His Flesh and His Blood.

hi DS.
all good...right up unto the mystical dialectic:

"Without the Spirit, you cannot accept His hard teaching. But with the grace of the Holy Spirit, you will be able to accept His word and understand that the bread and wine are truly His Flesh and His Blood"

the leap from The Lord's words as recorded in Scripture being brought to life by The Holy Spirit....to....the bread and wine (objects made by the hands of men) actually becoming Deity is not one i'm willing to make.

OC also says the veneration of mary is something only the "initiates" can truly understand...is that true for transubstantiation as well?

zone.

 

[dscherck]

hi DS.
all good...right up unto the mystical dialectic:

"Without the Spirit, you cannot accept His hard teaching. But with the grace of the Holy Spirit, you will be able to accept His word and understand that the bread and wine are truly His Flesh and His Blood"

the leap from The Lord's words as recorded in Scripture being brought to life by The Holy Spirit....to....the bread and wine (objects made by the hands of men) actually becoming Deity is not one i'm willing to make.

OC also says the veneration of mary is something only the "initiates" can truly understand...is that true for transubstantiation as well?

zone.

Are you saying that God, if He so chose to, could NOT change bread and wine into His Flesh and His Blood?

 

[zone]

Are you saying that God, if He so chose to, could NOT change bread and wine into His Flesh and His Blood?

another trick question? yes, He could...would He?

if that's the case, why didn't He just provide propitiation for the sins of the people with the Passover Lamb or the Manna?

 

[dscherck]

another trick question? yes, He could...would He?

if that's the case, why didn't He just provide propitiation for the sins of the people with the Passover Lamb or the Manna?

He's got a plan. The Passover Lamb and the Manna from heaven are pre-echos of His final, perpetual sacrifice wherein He offers Himself to us for the salvation of our souls.
There's numerous verses that point out these echoes of Christ's Eucharistic sacrifice.

Gen. 22:9-13 - God saved Abraham's first-born son on Mount Moriah with a substitute sacrifice which had to be consumed. This foreshadowed the real sacrifice of Israel's true first-born son (Jesus) who must be consumed.
Exodus 12:5 - the paschal lamb that was sacrificed and eaten had to be without blemish. Luke 23:4,14; John 18:38 - Jesus is the true paschal Lamb without blemish.
Exodus 12:7,22-23 - the blood of the lamb had to be sprinkled on the two door posts. This paschal sacrifice foreshadows the true Lamb of sacrifice and the two posts of His cross on which His blood was sprinkled.
Exodus 12:8,11 - the paschal lamb had to be eaten by the faithful in order for God to "pass over" the house and spare their first-born sons. Jesus, the true paschal Lamb, must also be eaten by the faithful in order for God to forgive their sins.
Exodus 12:43-45; Ezek. 44:9 - no one outside the "family of God" shall eat the lamb. Non-Catholics should not partake of the Eucharist until they are in full communion with the Church.
Exodus 12:49 - no uncircumcised person shall eat of the lamb. Baptism is the new circumcision for Catholics, and thus one must be baptized in order to partake of the Lamb.
Exodus 12:47; Num. 9:12 - the paschal lamb's bones could not be broken. John 19:33 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.
Exodus 16:4-36; Neh 9:15 - God gave His people bread from heaven to sustain them on their journey to the promised land. This foreshadows the true bread from heaven which God gives to us at Mass to sustain us on our journey to heaven.
Exodus 24:9-11 - the Mosaic covenant was consummated with a meal in the presence of God. The New and eternal Covenant is consummated with the Eucharistic meal - the body and blood of Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.
Exodus 29:33 – God commands that they shall eat those things with which atonement was made. Jesus is the true Lamb of atonement and must now be eaten.
Lev. 7:15 - the Aaronic sacrifices absolutely had to be eaten in order to restore communion with God. These sacrifices all foreshadow the one eternal sacrifice which must also be eaten to restore communion with God. This is the Eucharist (from the Greek word "eukaristia" which means "thanksgiving").
Lev. 17:11,14 - in the Old Testament, we see that the life of the flesh is the blood which could never be drunk. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ's blood is the source of new life, and now must be drunk.
Gen. 9:4-5; Deut.12:16,23-24 - in these verses we see other prohibitions on drinking blood, yet Jesus commands us to drink His blood because it is the true source of life.
2 Kings 4:43 - this passage foreshadows the multiplication of the loaves and the true bread from heaven which is Jesus Christ.
2 Chron. 30:15-17; 35:1,6,11,13; Ezra 6:20-21; Ezek. 6:20-21- the lamb was killed, roasted and eaten to atone for sin and restore communion with God. This foreshadows the true Lamb of God who was sacrificed for our sin and who must now be consumed for our salvation.
Neh. 9:15 – God gave the Israelites bread from heaven for their hunger, which foreshadows the true heavenly bread who is Jesus.
Psalm 78:24-25; 105:40 - the raining of manna and the bread from angels foreshadows the true bread from heaven, Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 53:7 - this verse foreshadows the true Lamb of God who was slain for our sins and who must be consumed.
Wis. 16:20 - this foreshadows the true bread from heaven which will be suited to every taste. All will be welcome to partake of this heavenly bread, which is Jesus Christ.
Sir. 24:21 - God says those who eat Him will hunger for more, and those who drink Him will thirst for more.
Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 - God orders Ezekiel to open his mouth and eat the scroll which is the Word of God. This foreshadows the true Word of God, Jesus Christ, who must be consumed.
Zech. 12:10 - this foreshadows the true first-born Son who was pierced for the sins of the inhabitants of the new Jerusalem.
Zech. 13:1 - on the day of piercing, a fountain (of blood and water) will cleanse the sins of those in the new House of David.


There's more echoes in Scripture to the Passover lamb and Christ's Paschal sacrifice found in the Eucharist.