A
AnandaHya
Guest
I have to study the concept of the Eucharist more. I have heard people say that Catholics believed that above statement and I'm glad we both agree that its WRONG.
THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST.
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I have to study the concept of the Eucharist more. I have heard people say that Catholics believed that above statement and I'm glad we both agree that its WRONG.
Well, if you look at the section of Scripture quoted in the initial post, it's emphasized that it's His literal flesh.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The eucharist comes from a HORRIBLE mistranslation of John 6. If ones sits down and actually reads it carefully, they would see what Jesus is talking about. The funny thing is, Those who teach the eucharist do not even believe on can take it and as Jesus said "NEVER DIE" Proven by the fact they take it all the time, yet Jesus said we can eat of what he came to give once and never hunger or thirst again.
When we study scripture, we need to take the context of the whole idea being spoken of, and make our belief match the context. We should not pick a few verses out and make it fit our belief.
Here is a small study a did a few years ago when I was discussing the eucharist with someone.
John 6.. Great passage, we have in the first part Jesus feeding the multitude with the bread and fish.. Then the next day,, we see the people search for Jesus, after they found out he had left. Jesus starts out with this.
John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
we see a few things.
1. The people did not come to Jesus because they wanted to hear what he had to say, they wanted fed ( literal food )
2. Jesus tells them not to search for food which dies, but search for the food that gives eternal life.
3. Jesus is able to give them that food, Because God the father has given him the seal ( the holy spirit remember back when John Baptised him and the holy spirit entered him )
Continuing...
vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
1. they asked jesus what works they had to do to recieve this eternal life ( or the food that provided it )
2. jesus gave the one answer - BELIEVE IN HIM WHO SENT ME. ( this is the bread. )
continuing...
vs 30. 30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
amazing, they saw jesus take 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and fed 5000, yet that was not sign enough? they wanted more proof? This shows the worlds thinking and the hardness of their hearts, that even though we may see a miracle, the miracle is not enough. The pharisees saw jesus raise lazarus, yet they still where hard hearted.
Jesus answer...
vs 32 - 33 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
1. Jesus said Moses did not do the work, God did it.
2. God is the one who sent manna, Just Like God is the one who sent Christ.
3. All the israelites had to do was eat the manna to stay alive,, be fed for the day.
4. all we have to do to live spiritually or have eternal life is eat the true bread sent from heaven, which is Christ
the peoples reply...
vs 34 - Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
they wanted that bread of life, or were they still looking for physical bread?
Jesus Reply...
vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Notice, it does not say eat bread at the eucharist.. it says come TO HIM, and BELIEVE or have faith in HIM
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1. Jesus says, " I am the bread of life " I am the one who gives eternal life.
2. He who comes shall never hunger. this is he who hears the words of God and takes them in ( eats them )
3. he who believes will never thirst ( this is he who hears the words and believes. For they are given spiritual water, or the holy spirit )
4. All who the father has promised the son, from adam till the last man living, Will come to jesus, And jesus will save them, He will ressurect them at the last day.
5. This is the bread of life. and the will of the father, " everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
peoples response...
vs 41 - 42 - The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
1. the people were trying to take jesus literaly, and not figuratively or spiritually,
2. because they could not understand, they rejected his words as foolishness.
Jesus reply...
vs 44 - 51 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
1. remember before jesus said eternal life was given if they trusted the god of heaven who sent jesus, He also said eternal life came from those who came to him and believed in him
2, now he confuses them even more,which hardens their hearts even more, and the ones who will be left will be the ones who truly believe.
3. the people who come to Christ are taught by God the father, it is he who gives them understanding.
4. again he reiterates, he who believes in christ ( whether them who have seen him, or us who have not ) will have eternal life.
5. He again says, " I am the bread of life " and states a fact, the people who ate the manna are physically dead, the people who eat the spiritual life, will live eternally in spiritual terms,, they will still die, so jesus is not talking in physical, but spiritual terms.
6. Jesus tells exactly what the bread is. His death on the cross, For it is his death burial and ressurection that has paid the price god demands from us, he took the penalty for us, and paid the debt we owe god..Again, he is talking spiritually not physically..
peoples response...
vs 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
1. Again the people are confused, they are trying to understand what jesus saying as physical not spiritual. just like when they tried to take jesus physical body when he said he is the bread from heaven, ( speaking spiritually)
Jesus reply.
vs 53 - 58 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed,and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
1. Again speaking spiritually here, jesus comes back at them saying unless we eat of his body and drink his blood, we shall not see life ( eternaly or spiritually )
2. Again the people, thinking literally and not spiritually, were offended, thinking Jesus meant to literally eat his Physical flesh and drink his Physical blood.
Even some disciples are offended..
vs 60 - 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
Jesus reply...
vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
1. Jesus reafirms that it is the spirit who gives life, Again trying to show them that it is spiritual in nature.
2. He says that the flesh profits nothing. the literal interpretation of Jesus being bread, and we have to literally eat him is no better than eating the spiritual manna, Listen to what he is saying spiritually. not taking it literally.
continuing...
vs 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
1, due to their lack of belief, or hard hearts, many walked away because of their misinterpretation.
2. One, who stays now, still does not believe but he will leave before it is over ( judas)
Jesus response to those who are left...
vs 67 - 71 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
1. Peter responds that he knws what Christ meant by the bread, the flesh and the blood. "You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God
2. It is the words of Christ, and who he is and what he is going to do that is the bread of life. Not the physical body and blood.
3. Note also later after christs death, peter confirms this message, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" even after he denies christ.. Peter understands totaly that it is the words of Christ, and what he did in our place that is the bread of life, And is the bread which gives eternal life.
4. Jesus confirms here, That it was him who chose them (drew them out) and later, when Peter re-states these remarks remembering this day, jesus confirms by saying it is upon that belief, it is upon that bread of life, it is upon that rock that his church will be built on. Again speaking spiritually (bread) and not literally (peter) yet that is another subject so will stop here.
When we study scripture, we need to take the context of the whole idea being spoken of, and make our belief match the context. We should not pick a few verses out and make it fit our belief.
Here is a small study a did a few years ago when I was discussing the eucharist with someone.
John 6.. Great passage, we have in the first part Jesus feeding the multitude with the bread and fish.. Then the next day,, we see the people search for Jesus, after they found out he had left. Jesus starts out with this.
John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
we see a few things.
1. The people did not come to Jesus because they wanted to hear what he had to say, they wanted fed ( literal food )
2. Jesus tells them not to search for food which dies, but search for the food that gives eternal life.
3. Jesus is able to give them that food, Because God the father has given him the seal ( the holy spirit remember back when John Baptised him and the holy spirit entered him )
Continuing...
vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
1. they asked jesus what works they had to do to recieve this eternal life ( or the food that provided it )
2. jesus gave the one answer - BELIEVE IN HIM WHO SENT ME. ( this is the bread. )
continuing...
vs 30. 30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
amazing, they saw jesus take 5 loaves of bread and two fish, and fed 5000, yet that was not sign enough? they wanted more proof? This shows the worlds thinking and the hardness of their hearts, that even though we may see a miracle, the miracle is not enough. The pharisees saw jesus raise lazarus, yet they still where hard hearted.
Jesus answer...
vs 32 - 33 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
1. Jesus said Moses did not do the work, God did it.
2. God is the one who sent manna, Just Like God is the one who sent Christ.
3. All the israelites had to do was eat the manna to stay alive,, be fed for the day.
4. all we have to do to live spiritually or have eternal life is eat the true bread sent from heaven, which is Christ
the peoples reply...
vs 34 - Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
they wanted that bread of life, or were they still looking for physical bread?
Jesus Reply...
vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Notice, it does not say eat bread at the eucharist.. it says come TO HIM, and BELIEVE or have faith in HIM
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1. Jesus says, " I am the bread of life " I am the one who gives eternal life.
2. He who comes shall never hunger. this is he who hears the words of God and takes them in ( eats them )
3. he who believes will never thirst ( this is he who hears the words and believes. For they are given spiritual water, or the holy spirit )
4. All who the father has promised the son, from adam till the last man living, Will come to jesus, And jesus will save them, He will ressurect them at the last day.
5. This is the bread of life. and the will of the father, " everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
peoples response...
vs 41 - 42 - The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
1. the people were trying to take jesus literaly, and not figuratively or spiritually,
2. because they could not understand, they rejected his words as foolishness.
Jesus reply...
vs 44 - 51 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
1. remember before jesus said eternal life was given if they trusted the god of heaven who sent jesus, He also said eternal life came from those who came to him and believed in him
2, now he confuses them even more,which hardens their hearts even more, and the ones who will be left will be the ones who truly believe.
3. the people who come to Christ are taught by God the father, it is he who gives them understanding.
4. again he reiterates, he who believes in christ ( whether them who have seen him, or us who have not ) will have eternal life.
5. He again says, " I am the bread of life " and states a fact, the people who ate the manna are physically dead, the people who eat the spiritual life, will live eternally in spiritual terms,, they will still die, so jesus is not talking in physical, but spiritual terms.
6. Jesus tells exactly what the bread is. His death on the cross, For it is his death burial and ressurection that has paid the price god demands from us, he took the penalty for us, and paid the debt we owe god..Again, he is talking spiritually not physically..
peoples response...
vs 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
1. Again the people are confused, they are trying to understand what jesus saying as physical not spiritual. just like when they tried to take jesus physical body when he said he is the bread from heaven, ( speaking spiritually)
Jesus reply.
vs 53 - 58 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed,and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
1. Again speaking spiritually here, jesus comes back at them saying unless we eat of his body and drink his blood, we shall not see life ( eternaly or spiritually )
2. Again the people, thinking literally and not spiritually, were offended, thinking Jesus meant to literally eat his Physical flesh and drink his Physical blood.
Even some disciples are offended..
vs 60 - 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
Jesus reply...
vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
1. Jesus reafirms that it is the spirit who gives life, Again trying to show them that it is spiritual in nature.
2. He says that the flesh profits nothing. the literal interpretation of Jesus being bread, and we have to literally eat him is no better than eating the spiritual manna, Listen to what he is saying spiritually. not taking it literally.
continuing...
vs 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
1, due to their lack of belief, or hard hearts, many walked away because of their misinterpretation.
2. One, who stays now, still does not believe but he will leave before it is over ( judas)
Jesus response to those who are left...
vs 67 - 71 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
1. Peter responds that he knws what Christ meant by the bread, the flesh and the blood. "You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God
2. It is the words of Christ, and who he is and what he is going to do that is the bread of life. Not the physical body and blood.
3. Note also later after christs death, peter confirms this message, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" even after he denies christ.. Peter understands totaly that it is the words of Christ, and what he did in our place that is the bread of life, And is the bread which gives eternal life.
4. Jesus confirms here, That it was him who chose them (drew them out) and later, when Peter re-states these remarks remembering this day, jesus confirms by saying it is upon that belief, it is upon that bread of life, it is upon that rock that his church will be built on. Again speaking spiritually (bread) and not literally (peter) yet that is another subject so will stop here.
It's an issue of a bad translation.... Yet this supposed bad translation is not mentioned. And the idea of a bad translation doesn't address the fact that both the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox also hold to this belief despite both using different translations of the Holy Scriptures as well. Nor does it address the writings of the Apostle Paul, and the teachings of the early Christians, many of whom were martyred for refusing to deny this belief.
Again, the belief that the Eucharist is merely symbolic was unheard of until about the 12th century. Prior to that, all Christians held to common viewpoint that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Our Lord.
Again, the belief that the Eucharist is merely symbolic was unheard of until about the 12th century. Prior to that, all Christians held to common viewpoint that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Our Lord.
S
SantoSubito
Guest
I'll throw in my two cents here. Eternally Grateful, you have shown us what you see in scripture and we have shown you what we see, yet neither of us is convinced of the others argument. So I propose one thing; that you demonstrate your symbolic Eucharist belief from Church history. Obviously you will object to this by saying something along the lines of history doesn't matter, but for the sake of argument, please show us this belief in history before AD 1100.
C
Consumed
Guest
you pointed out that the tarnslation was wrong cause of the bible i took the verse from 1 cor 11:24, umm did the translators get it wrong???
(catholic bible) douay rheims says - 1 cor 11:24-25 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat:this is my body which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.25 In like manner also the chalice,after He had supped,saying:This chalice is the new testament in my blood:this do ye,as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me
this is what you were correcting??
1 Corinthians 11:24-25
"and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “'This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'
did i use the wrong translation again?? its catholic
Yes you got it! His spiritul food. His flesh is meat indeed! Manna from heaven.
Would you prefer to go to the Greek?
Luke 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - the translation of Jesus' words of consecration is "touto poieite tan eman anamnasin." Jesus literally said "offer this as my memorial sacrifice." The word “poiein” (do) refers to offering a sacrifice (see, e.g., Exodus 29:38-39, where God uses the same word – poieseis – regarding the sacrifice of the lambs on the altar). The word “anamnesis” (remembrance) also refers to a sacrifice which is really or actually made present in time by the power of God, as it reminds God of the actual event (see, e.g., Heb. 10:3; Num. 10:10). It is not just a memorial of a past event, but a past event made present in time.
In other words, the “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.” If the Eucharist weren’t a sacrifice, Luke would have used the word “mnemosunon” (which is the word used to describe a nonsacrificial memorial. See, for example, Matt. 26:13; Mark 14:9; and especially Acts 10:4). So there are two memorials, one sacrificial (which Jesus instituted), and one non-sacrificial.
C
Consumed
Guest
so so much for jerome and co translating it right then is what your saying?? first to latin then english, so who do we trust with what if they all have it wrong if thats the case.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
Eternally grateful I agree with you but you forgot one point of the argument: only those with the eyes and ears to hear God's message will hear. do not throw pearls before swine or they will turn and rip you apart.
For those who have ears to hear, you need to ask God for the spiritual eyes to SEE what God is talking about. if you have enough faith and are pure of heart you will see God. It says "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God"
When you have a pure heart and spiritual eyes to see the true meaning of scripture you will know there are demons that will attack and you will be feed other poisons that you must reject and eat only of the bread/teachings of Jesus. "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees" well i say beware of the leaven of mysticism and literal translation that takes spiritual matters and puts it into earthly flesh driven terms.
who puts new wine in old wineskins?
John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
we see a few things.
1. The people did not come to Jesus because they wanted to hear what he had to say, they wanted fed ( literal food )
2. Jesus tells them not to search for food which dies, but search for the food that gives eternal life.
3. Jesus is able to give them that food, Because God the father has given him the seal ( the holy spirit remember back when John Baptised him and the holy spirit entered him )
ok now they don't want literal food they came for Jesus teaching. but people misunderstand alot without the Holy Spirit to guide their thoughts...we should just all pray for we prophecies only in part because we all only know in part. when we are in heaven all those things will pass away as will the law of death and punishment of sin because there is no need for sin will not exist in Heaven.
For those who have ears to hear, you need to ask God for the spiritual eyes to SEE what God is talking about. if you have enough faith and are pure of heart you will see God. It says "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God"
When you have a pure heart and spiritual eyes to see the true meaning of scripture you will know there are demons that will attack and you will be feed other poisons that you must reject and eat only of the bread/teachings of Jesus. "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees" well i say beware of the leaven of mysticism and literal translation that takes spiritual matters and puts it into earthly flesh driven terms.
who puts new wine in old wineskins?
John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
we see a few things.
1. The people did not come to Jesus because they wanted to hear what he had to say, they wanted fed ( literal food )
2. Jesus tells them not to search for food which dies, but search for the food that gives eternal life.
3. Jesus is able to give them that food, Because God the father has given him the seal ( the holy spirit remember back when John Baptised him and the holy spirit entered him )
ok now they don't want literal food they came for Jesus teaching. but people misunderstand alot without the Holy Spirit to guide their thoughts...we should just all pray for we prophecies only in part because we all only know in part. when we are in heaven all those things will pass away as will the law of death and punishment of sin because there is no need for sin will not exist in Heaven.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Wow, a few responses! Unfortunately, almost the same responses I am used to.
When I had this discusion back then. All I asked is for someone to show me where in my interpretation of the Whole passage was wrong, and show my how I erred. I was told look at what we said and you can see it (the few verses in the passage in question, which ignored the rest of the conversation) Taken to a few other passages (same ones you all used). Told I was just outright wrong. And even taken to a website where I was told someone could answer my questions. At which point I was just called a heretic from Satan and everyone was warned to stay away from me, yet a refusal to even show me where I erred in what I said.
Church history is not going to help. Everything I have read shows foir the first 300 years the church was divided on this subject (that is of course unless I go to a pro catholic source, which I would consider biased, Just as I would not go to an Anti catholic source, because it would be biased the opposite way) so how can we trust this?
To look at a passage, We have to look at Context. We can not use verses to force scripture to fit our beliefs. The things I posted shows the context where I have interpreted the verses in question here. People might think this means nothing. However, If we stick to the passages in question only we have (I believe this vs I believe that) and will get no where. because we refuse to look at context, and just give our opinion on what the "few" verses say. This is not helpfull.
If we have open minds, and we realy want to get to the bottom of this. we need to help each other. Help me by showing me where in the "context" verses I erred in my interpretation. I have made it easy, I made a point by point interpretation of the passages. Just show me point by point where I went wrong and why. If you can't do this, you can't show I am wrong in my context and I can't change my belief. If you really want to help me understand the way you do (which I hope you do, as I want to know) then you will do this.
When I had this discusion back then. All I asked is for someone to show me where in my interpretation of the Whole passage was wrong, and show my how I erred. I was told look at what we said and you can see it (the few verses in the passage in question, which ignored the rest of the conversation) Taken to a few other passages (same ones you all used). Told I was just outright wrong. And even taken to a website where I was told someone could answer my questions. At which point I was just called a heretic from Satan and everyone was warned to stay away from me, yet a refusal to even show me where I erred in what I said.
Church history is not going to help. Everything I have read shows foir the first 300 years the church was divided on this subject (that is of course unless I go to a pro catholic source, which I would consider biased, Just as I would not go to an Anti catholic source, because it would be biased the opposite way) so how can we trust this?
To look at a passage, We have to look at Context. We can not use verses to force scripture to fit our beliefs. The things I posted shows the context where I have interpreted the verses in question here. People might think this means nothing. However, If we stick to the passages in question only we have (I believe this vs I believe that) and will get no where. because we refuse to look at context, and just give our opinion on what the "few" verses say. This is not helpfull.
If we have open minds, and we realy want to get to the bottom of this. we need to help each other. Help me by showing me where in the "context" verses I erred in my interpretation. I have made it easy, I made a point by point interpretation of the passages. Just show me point by point where I went wrong and why. If you can't do this, you can't show I am wrong in my context and I can't change my belief. If you really want to help me understand the way you do (which I hope you do, as I want to know) then you will do this.
C
Consumed
Guest
bro thats why really if we rejoice always at what Jesus has done for us and keep what really mattered to Him, love loving - grace
Who do we trust? We should trust the early Christians. The belief that the Eucharist is literally the Flesh and Blood of Our Lord is recorded as far back as the first century. The Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox also hold to this view and they parted ways with the Catholics in the 3rd and 10th centuries respectively. We have the words of Our Lord Himself who says, "This is my body"
Why won't you trust the early Christians? Why can't you accept the clear words of Our Lord who offers Himself to us, not only spiritually, but in the flesh as well?
C
Consumed
Guest
sorry dscherk, i was addressing translations brother as to which translation to trust and the translation of the translated translation. in the context i wrote it it was a in house personal giggle i have regarding translations, nothing compares to the real deal, being in communion with Him thru the finished work of the cross
sorry i do apologise, i have no grief with you nor where you worship King Jesus
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yeah it did go back to the first century. But there is proof other did not take him literally in the first century. Where you there in the first century? Do you know for a FACT (experiential knowledge) that the whole church believed in a literal flesh as you believe?
The jews used the same arguments you use (their fathers and the prophets) against Christ. why would anyone wish to make the same mistake?
This argument is weak. A catholic may think it is strong. But no man should put their faith in what someone said others did in the past, this is foolish.
what is sar hard for any of you to show me where i was wrong?
Why is it every time I discuss this matter, no matter where I am, no one has the common curtesy, or humility to take me point by point, and "show me the truth" if you have the truth. I am open,, show me! Don't show me history. Show me Gods word. for it has never failed.
S
SantoSubito
Guest
These are the the two statements I wish to draw attention to. First, I would like actually quotes from the sources you drew you first statement from. I'm not doubting their existence I would just like to see who they come from.
Second, I have seen that argument used far too many times to dismiss the Fathers. Some of them were even taught directly by John the Apostle himself, not to mention the fact that these men were no Jews trying to disprove and slander Jesus. They were men that were Martyrs, evangelists, and theologians among other things. So I fail to see how the "Jews did this" argument negates anything the Church Fathers said or wrote.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
1st off. I am not falling into this trap. Been there done that so many times. and what does it ever accomplish? The same old argument. You got that from an "Anti'Catholic" website or source. Then they show me a source which would be "pro-catholic" and demand that it is not biased or tainted in any way.
2nd. What arguments did the Jewish Leaders use against Christ?
1. Our faith was handed down by our fathers.
2. Our Fathers were handed down the laws of God, and were given directly to us so who are you...
3. We are Gods chosen, and he has promised to bless us, and keep his word in us.
4. Our priesthood has come directly through and from Arron, and we can trace our priesthood back to Aarons, Can you?
5. Blah Blah Blah, (notice anything but scripture. just like we see happening here!)
Yet How did Jesus respond to these arguments or challenges to his "Authority" or who he was, or what was truth and what was not?
1. The scriptures say
2. It is written (in the scriupture)
3. The prophets (scripture) say
4. It is written in the law (scripture)
We see at no point Jesus use history, the fathers, the heritage, the traditions, or any other reason other than scripture when he was discussing anything with anyone. Even when he told us what he would do, he said "it is written that the son of man must be lifted up.
Look up the word scripture, the law or prophet and see how many times Jesus used scripture to debate anything concerning him or Gods plan, you will see there are a multitude of verses.
Look up how many times he used any other excuse, you will find none.
Paul, How many times did he use scripture to prove he was correct? Many!
Paul told us to use scripture to test people to see if they were from God
Paul never used anything other than scripture (other than his "conversion" which would have been a part of scripture when he used it)
So should we debate the way Jesus and the Apostles did? Or the way the Jewish religious leaders did? (the type of debating I am getting here)
I know one thing. Jesus was not afraid to use scripture because he knew it would back him up. No apostle was afraid to use scripture because it would back them up.
On the other hand, The jewish leaders refused to use scripture, If anything else, when Jesus used scripture they walked away even more angry than they were before because they knew they could not deny what he said was true, they would not even debate him on it.
If people wish to debate, or help someone understand what they believe, They should use scripture, not anything else.
As I said before, We do not pick and chose verses out of a passage and use this to prove our belief is true. we take a whole passage, concept or idea in context and force our belief to line up with the word of God.
for example. I said?
The proper way to debate, is to say, EG, I see what your saying. But I disagree on your points.
Point 1. I can not agree for this reason.
point 2. I can not agree for this reason.
etc etc..
Or "EG I agree on these point but these point (name them) I can not agree for these reasons.
The fact is. I get my context on the verses you are quoting to prove your position from everything I said. Jesus did not just say those few words, he had a conversation with them. We do not just pick one part of a conversation and say this is what Jesus was saying,
If you can not show me where I have erred in my context points. You will never show me your belief and why you believe it to be true by the passage, For all you can do is give me "your interpretation" with no context to back it up.. and I can not then come to your way of thinking.
We can have 5 people say these specific verses mean this. Yet the only one who is correct is the one whose interpretation lines up with the context of the whole passage.
Scripture was not written in verse/chapter form. It was written in paragraphs, books, etc.. We would not pull a sentance out of a paragraph and say this is what it means. We must use the whole paragraph or idea to see what the whole passage is saying, They even teach this in college. So why would we do this with Gods word? The most important book we will ever read. For in it as God and the apostles said. "We can know we need a savior, we can know what God wants from us, We cna know how to be saved, we can know how to have eternal life, and we can know who is telling truth, and who is not'
S
SantoSubito
Guest
It's not a trap. I'm just asking for the actual quotes from the Fathers your drawing from for the aforementioned statement. If I was asking you for say a historian you drew that statement from then it may well be a trap, but I'm not. What I'm asking for is the pertinent quotes from the Fathers. As you well know I can't accuse quotes from the Fathers many of whom are canonized to be Anti-Catholic.
Apologies for cutting this down so much but these last two sections are really the entire point of your list.
I personally have not debated with you over scriptural interpretation in this thread. Dscherk, however has, and I've seen him use scripture and the Greek to prove his point. So where you get the preposterous notion that we are afraid to use scripture I do not know. What I do know, however, is that to reject history and the teachings of the men so much closer to the Apostles than us is absurd. Can you imagine listening to St. Polycarp a man trained by St. John the Apostle himself preach a homily, and then standing up and saying "Clearly Jesus meant this, and not what you are saying". Maybe you do not wish to bring in history because it does not agree with your view, that at least is the reason most Protestants I've spoken with refuse to listen to or accept the Fathers words. Regardless, The "Jews did this" argument is not sufficient for dismissing the Fathers. It is just a half hearted attempt to reject evidence that does not agree with you, and is written in such a way that you can't interpret your way around it.
If however you refuse to accept history as a witness to what the Apostles taught then this discussion can go no further. Both sides have presented their view and their evidence, but neither side will change as it stands.
Forgive me for being so blunt with my statements, but there was not really any way to say what I said without stepping on any toes.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I said I saw them from historical book, I never mentioned Fathers.
Again, I am not falling for this trap.
Apologies for cutting this down so much but these last two sections are really the entire point of your list.
Thats funny, I just looked. Dscherk spoke of Luke and 1 cor, and a few other passages, But made NO MENTION of my interpretation of John 6.
I am speaking of John 6. If you are going to say I am wrong (which you have) show me where in JOHN 6 I am wrong. Why is everyone so afraid?? And why are they ALWAYS afraid??
So where you get the preposterous notion that we are afraid to use scripture I do not know.
Hmm, Lets see. NOT ONE PERSON HAS SHOWED ME WHERE I WAS WRONG IN MY POST OF JOHN 6. And you wonder why??
What I do know, however, is that to reject history and the teachings of the men so much closer to the Apostles than us is absurd. Can you imagine listening to St. Polycarp a man trained by St. John the Apostle himself preach a homily, and then standing up and saying "Clearly Jesus meant this, and not what you are saying". Maybe you do not wish to bring in history because it does not agree with your view, that at least is the reason most Protestants I've spoken with refuse to listen to or accept the Fathers words. Regardless, The "Jews did this" argument is not sufficient for dismissing the Fathers. It is just a half hearted attempt to reject evidence that does not agree with you, and is written in such a way that you can't interpret your way around it.
No, It is the opposite. You were not there, I was not there, It is NOT IN SCRIPTURE (Which is the only thing we can be ASSURED is from God, for it is all that is god breathed, So all we have is what someone claims to be.
Why would we not look at the word? Why are catholics so afraid to look at scripture. Again I say, If your belief was from God you would have no fear, and would not need history, Because history would clearly show your belief to be true. Since no one (at least yet) is willing to look at John 6 with me (the passage where Jesus said "eat my flesh and drink mt Blood" and want to still look at history. I can only assume you realy do not want to know truth.
You just proved my point. We can not discuss how I am wrong in John 6, I am wrong, you are right blah blah. and thats it.
Thanks. Your right we will not get anywhere. For Gods word trumps all other things. And your refusal to discuss Gods word with me can leave me to continue to believe as I do, in fact it gives me more reason to.
Thats fine. I understand how it is when ones tradition is questioned. We can get angry.
But also know. I am even more angry when I am called a protestant ( I protest nothing) When I am told I am wrong in my interpretation (yet no one will show me where or why) and I am told I am wrong, JUST BECAUSE.
I will be honest, I have heard alot of hatred against the Catholic church (even from many former Catholics, who I am close friends with) And I could never understand why. I am starting to see why.