the Gospel v moralism

[Jason0047]

Just saw something that Jason posted -- my partial quotes "(like .... hating)" quick glancing so far at this page -- that's what I saw just before my post of Jude was "hate" and what else Jason wrote after I posted Jude "(Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness or as the NIV says, "a license to sin")" ... OK, have to admit - I do see what some folks are posting is "a license to sin" and not obedience to His commands.

I am happy that you agree. Believers should never think they can commit horrible evil acts and be under God's good graces. It would defeat the purpose in being a part of God's good kingdom. For we know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. Which is what Jesus meant by the phrase, you shall know them by their fruits.

And also from Jason before that, he posted 2Tim 2:25 sort of out of context ...

Don't see how I quoted this out of context slightly. Verses can sometimes have more than one meaning in Scripture and can convey more than one truth. 2 Timothy 2:25 is in context of talking about God granting repentance to unbelievers or those who oppose themselves and have been captive to the devil's will. The truth about how God grants a person repentance to people within this passage as I mentioned is still true. For we were once captive to the devil's will, too. But God granted us repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth (Because He knew our heart and future free will choice concerning Him).

 

[SeaBass]

Just like the devil in the garden...add words and change the context

Works is works is works is works of RIGHTEOUSNESS......NO WHERE is the word OF MERIT USED.....more twisty twist from Mr. Twisty Sea Perch here for sure, because Ephesians 2 contradicts your Campbellite works/watered down salvation message!

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Eph 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

In verse 8 faith itself is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5.
In verse 9 good works are necessary to being a Christian.
It therefore is not possible that "not of works" of verse 9 CANNOT include ALL works eliminating the works of faith and good works Christians must do.

"Not of works, lest any man should boast" if one could work to merit his salvation then that would be something to boast about. Obeying the will of God is nothing to boast about, Lk 17:10.

 

[SeaBass]

God commands all men to repent, but He knows that not all people are going to repent, though. A person still can't repent without God giving a person the ability to repent. For God's Word says.... IF .... IF.... God will give them repentance.

2 Timothy 2:25
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

As I said before, Esau found no repentance although he sought it carefully with tears. Does this mean Esau had no hope of being saved? No. It just means that Esau was not being pure of heart or true with God so as to repent for real, so God could not give him repentance. God knew Esau did not really want to truly repent. He chose to be wicked in heart because he sold his birthright. Esau would have liked to repent, but it was not the true sorrow or repentance God was looking for. For there is a worldly sorrow and a Godly sorrow. For Judas was sorry about what he did to Jesus, but it was not a Godly sorrow because he hanged himself. But do not fool yourself, my friend. God is one step ahead of our free will choices. There is nothing that gets passed Him. He knows all things as if they had already happened already. For the Lord has declared the End from the Beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

It would not makes sense for God to command all men to repent but then God decides which men can or cannot repent.
2 Tim 2:25 as in Acts 11:18 shows repentance is granted, a gift from God whereby God gives men the opportunity to repent. in 2 Tim 2:25,26 God gives them opportunity to repent and recover themselves out of the snare of the devil. If God alone decides who can or cannot repent, then if I am impenitent would be the fault of God for His failure in allowing me to repent.

Heb 12:17 "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

The idea here is Esau found no place of repentance with his father. Isaac would not change/repent his mind over the birthright going to Jacob no matter how much Esau begged and cried. What was done was done and could not be changed.

Albert Barnes (my emp) " Margin, “Way to change his mind,” That is, no place for repentance “in the mind of isaac,” or no way to change his mind. It does not mean that Esau earnestly sought to repent and could not, but that when once the blessing had passed the lips of his father, he found it impossible to change it. Isaac firmly declared that he had “pronounced” the blessing, and though it had been obtained by fraud, yet as it was of the nature of a divine prediction, it could not now be changed."

Note how the ASV renders Heb 12:17 " For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought it diligently with tears."

 

[SeaBass]

No, it says we are not saved that of ourselves in Ephesians 2. That is exactly what it means. It says salvation is a gift. Not of works. Then in verse 10 it mentions how we are created unto good works. These are not two different types of works. There is no indication of Paul switching back and forth of talking about OT works and then NT works. Works are still works.

Titus 3:5 does not mention anything about baptism whatsoever. For is not baptism a work of righteousness? Well, if it is then it is disqualified from Titus 3:5; Because Titus 3:5 specifically says,

"NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US."

Then we continue and it says, "he saved us, ....

... By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Does the passage say, "He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of baptism by the Holy Ghost" ?

No, it does not. You must insert that type of false belief into the text, my friend.

Man cannot save himself by coming up with his own plan of salvation but man saves himself by obeying God's plan of salvation. God's plan of salvation was for those in Acts 2 to repent and be baptized and they could "save yourselves" (verse 40) by obeying God's plan of salvation.


Tts 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" refers to works of merit.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Here "going about to establish their own righteousness" also refers to works of merit as in Tts 3:5.

In ROm 10:3, note how "establishing their own righteousness" (works of merit) is CONTRASTED to obeying/submitting to God's righteousness.

Many will not or simply refuse to make the distinction between one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness. One doing his OWN works of righteousness (works of merit) will not save but working God's righteousness will save, God accepts those that work HIS righteousness, Acts 10:35.

So in one verse Rom 10:3 we have two different types of works mentions 1) works of merit and 2) obedience to God's righteousness where the first does not save while the second does.

Lastly, note in Tts 3:5 how works of righteousness we have done (works of merit) is contrasted to "washing of regeneration".

Washing of regeneration is a reference to water baptism and is CONTRASTED FROM works of merit/works of righteousness we have done. So obeying by submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit but working GOD'S righteousness/commands.


The bible is its own best commentary.
men must be born again to be saved Jn 3:5 and Tts 3:5 is a born again" passage. harmonizing the two verses we get:

Jn 3:5--------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5 ----Holy Ghost++++washing of reg.>>>>>saved
1Cor 12:13---Spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body


Clearly "water" and "baptized" and "washing of reg" all refer to water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

yes, the preceeding verse makes my point more thoroughly, thank you.

Ps 127:1
A Song of Ascents, of Solomon.
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Did you notice how both Mt 7:21,24 says one must DO what the Lord said?

 

[Jason0047]

It would not makes sense for God to command all men to repent but then God decides which men can or cannot repent.

You don't understand where I am coming from.

Acts 17:30 is speaking from our linear perspective. God puts out the command for all men to repent.

Although, God puts out the Command for all men to repent, God is not bound by linear time like us and He can see the future and know men's future free will choices and know who is going to repent and who is not going to repent. For nothing surprises God. God has declared the End from the Beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Unless you are an Open Theist whereby you believe God does not know the future or something.

2 Timothy 2:25 is speaking from God's Eternal perspective of the Lord knowing our future free will choices ahead of time. Repentance is something that is not just one sided, but it also involves God, too. God has to give a person repentance. It is a gift. For salvation is a free gift of God that is not that of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9).

In other words, God commands all men to repent, but He knows they will not accept His gift of repentance. A gift is something that is given to a person. For the Godly sorrow that is convicting a person is not of their entire realization. It is the Spirit that convicts a person of their sin.

For the Spirit reproves the world of sin (John 16:8-9) because they do not believe the Command to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

2 Tim 2:25 as in Acts 11:18 shows repentance is granted, a gift from God whereby God gives men the opportunity to repent. in 2 Tim 2:25,26 God gives them opportunity to repent and recover themselves out of the snare of the devil. If God alone decides who can or cannot repent, then if I am impenitent would be the fault of God for His failure in allowing me to repent.

No, 2 Timothy 2:25 says IF God gives them repentance. What this is saying is that God is also involved in giving repentance. For it says.... IF... IF....IF.... God gives them repentance. It is a gift that can only be given by God first when God sees a person's heart is open to receiving that gift. God does not force salvation from people nor does he prevent salvation from people. What this is saying.... is God is the one first gives a person the power of the ability to repent. They cannot repent on their own without God. God comes first in the process; Not man. For God is sovereign.

Heb 12:17 "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

The idea here is Esau found no place of repentance with his father. Isaac would not change/repent his mind over the birthright going to Jacob no matter how much Esau begged and cried. What was done was done and could not be changed.

Albert Barnes (my emp) " Margin, “Way to change his mind,” That is, no place for repentance “in the mind of isaac,” or no way to change his mind. It does not mean that Esau earnestly sought to repent and could not, but that when once the blessing had passed the lips of his father, he found it impossible to change it. Isaac firmly declared that he had “pronounced” the blessing, and though it had been obtained by fraud, yet as it was of the nature of a divine prediction, it could not now be changed."

Note how the ASV renders Heb 12:17 " For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought it diligently with tears."

Look. I am not saying Esau did not have the capacity to repent. The Lord our God gives every person to choose Him equally. But God KNEW Esau was not going to repent because God is outside of linear time. God seen Esau's fake or half version of repentance and God rejected it because He knew it was not a genuine and true repentance. Esau would have probably liked to have done what was right and repent correctly, but he just chose evil instead. For every person who is wicked knows deep down that accepting Christ is the right thing to do, but they reject Him because of an evil heart of unbelief. God plays a part in the repentance process of giving repentance to a person as a gift if the Lord knows that person's heart is truly open to such a thing. God does not force people to repent. Nor does God just leave it up the person alone to repent without His involvement, either.

 

[Jason0047]

Man cannot save himself by coming up with his own plan of salvation but man saves himself by obeying God's plan of salvation. God's plan of salvation was for those in Acts 2 to repent and be baptized and they could "save yourselves" (verse 40) by obeying God's plan of salvation.


Tts 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" refers to works of merit.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Here "going about to establish their own righteousness" also refers to works of merit as in Tts 3:5.

In ROm 10:3, note how "establishing their own righteousness" (works of merit) is CONTRASTED to obeying/submitting to God's righteousness.

Many will not or simply refuse to make the distinction between one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness. One doing his OWN works of righteousness (works of merit) will not save but working God's righteousness will save, God accepts those that work HIS righteousness, Acts 10:35.

So in one verse Rom 10:3 we have two different types of works mentions 1) works of merit and 2) obedience to God's righteousness where the first does not save while the second does.

Lastly, note in Tts 3:5 how works of righteousness we have done (works of merit) is contrasted to "washing of regeneration".

Washing of regeneration is a reference to water baptism and is CONTRASTED FROM works of merit/works of righteousness we have done. So obeying by submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit but working GOD'S righteousness/commands.


The bible is its own best commentary.
men must be born again to be saved Jn 3:5 and Tts 3:5 is a born again" passage. harmonizing the two verses we get:

Jn 3:5--------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5 ----Holy Ghost++++washing of reg.>>>>>saved
1Cor 12:13---Spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body


Clearly "water" and "baptized" and "washing of reg" all refer to water baptism.

No. Titus 3:5 does not mention water baptism. Nor could one interpret this passage to even say that. You are inserting that meaning into the text. The washing and regeneration is of the Holy Ghost. For it says so right in the verse. The verse also says.... Not of righteous works that we have done.... in relation to the topic of salvation. It then says we are saved by his mercy and grace. It talks about works after this passage. Titus 3:5 does not teach works salvation. One has to twist that verse beyond it's plain meaning in order for it to say that; And frankly, I wouldn't even know where to begin in doing something so wrong like that.

 

[SeaBass]

No. Titus 3:5 does not mention water baptism. Nor could one interpret this passage to even say that. You are inserting that meaning into the text. The washing and regeneration is of the Holy Ghost. For it says so right in the verse. The verse also says.... Not of righteous works that we have done.... in relation to the topic of salvation. It then says we are saved by his mercy and grace. It talks about works after this passage. Titus 3:5 does not teach works salvation. One has to twist that verse beyond it's plain meaning in order for it to say that; And frankly, I wouldn't even know where to begin in doing something so wrong like that.

Jn 3:5--------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5 ----Holy Ghost++++washing of reg.>>>>>saved
1Cor 12:13---Spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body

Three born again verses with washing of regeneration = water = baptized.

Clearly washing of regeneration = water baptized else there is major disharmony among these three verses.

The Holy Ghost is distinct from washing of regeneration. As Jn 3:5 consists of one birth with two elements
1) water
2) Spirit
....and that same one birth is found in Tts 3:5 with those same exact two elements
1) washing of reg./water and
2) spirit/Holy Ghost.


Again, the phrase "not of righteousness we have done" refers to works of merit which cannot save. What saves is the new birth that consists of water baptism/washing of reg. and spirit/Holy Ghost. As washing of regeneration is CONTRASTED from works of righteousness we have done/water baptism. Water baptism is not a work of merit but obedience to God.


Tts 3:5 does NOT say we are saved BY His mercy and grace but says we are saved BY washing of reg and renewing of the HG.

Tts 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us:"

How according to His mercy did He save us?

"BY the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
...........water baptism and the spirit exactly as in Jn 3:5.

 

[SeaBass]

You don't understand where I am coming from.

Acts 17:30 is speaking from our linear perspective. God puts out the command for all men to repent.

Although, God puts out the Command for all men to repent, God is not bound by linear time like us and He can see the future and know men's future free will choices and know who is going to repent and who is not going to repent. For nothing surprises God. God has declared the End from the Beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Unless you are an Open Theist whereby you believe God does not know the future or something.

2 Timothy 2:25 is speaking from God's Eternal perspective of the Lord knowing our future free will choices ahead of time. Repentance is something that is not just one sided, but it also involves God, too. God has to give a person repentance. It is a gift. For salvation is a free gift of God that is not that of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9).

In other words, God commands all men to repent, but He knows they will not accept His gift of repentance. A gift is something that is given to a person. For the Godly sorrow that is convicting a person is not of their entire realization. It is the Spirit that convicts a person of their sin.

For the Spirit reproves the world of sin (John 16:8-9) because they do not believe the Command to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).



No, 2 Timothy 2:25 says IF God gives them repentance. What this is saying is that God is also involved in giving repentance. For it says.... IF... IF....IF.... God gives them repentance. It is a gift that can only be given by God first when God sees a person's heart is open to receiving that gift. God does not force salvation from people nor does he prevent salvation from people. What this is saying.... is God is the one first gives a person the power of the ability to repent. They cannot repent on their own without God. God comes first in the process; Not man. For God is sovereign.



Look. I am not saying Esau did not have the capacity to repent. The Lord our God gives every person to choose Him equally. But God KNEW Esau was not going to repent because God is outside of linear time. God seen Esau's fake or half version of repentance and God rejected it because He knew it was not a genuine and true repentance. Esau would have probably liked to have done what was right and repent correctly, but he just chose evil instead. For every person who is wicked knows deep down that accepting Christ is the right thing to do, but they reject Him because of an evil heart of unbelief. God plays a part in the repentance process of giving repentance to a person as a gift if the Lord knows that person's heart is truly open to such a thing. God does not force people to repent. Nor does God just leave it up the person alone to repent without His involvement, either.

Just because God foreknows who will repent and who will not doe snot take away from the fact that God has granted man the opportunity to repent. God did not have to grant man the opportunity to repent but because of His grace He did.

2 Pet 3:9 God's desire is that all men come to repentance.
So how can 2 Tim 2:25 mean that God withholds repentance from some men? That idea would go against God's own desire of 2 Pet 3:9.

I checked with limited resources I have but could not find the word "IF" (Greek word "ean") in 2 Tim 2:25.

The idea of the context of 2 Tim 2:25 is those false teachers refuse to repent, will not repent. Yet their refusal to repent is of their own free will and not because God will not allow them. Since those false teachers refuse to repent then they have no hope at all to be saved. The idea is then we are to hope for God in some providential way to get them out of out of their ignorance to the truth where then they can choose to come to repentance. God does not owe them repentance but since they refuse to repent we hope God might providentially do something they will quit refusing to repent and come to repentance.


Heb 12:17 does not show it was impossible for Esau to repent but Esau could not Get Issac to repent and change what had already been done. Gen 33:1-4, I see that both Jacob and Esau repented forgiving each other living in harmony thereafter till they died.

 

[Jason0047]

Just because God foreknows who will repent and who will not doe snot take away from the fact that God has granted man the opportunity to repent. God did not have to grant man the opportunity to repent but because of His grace He did.

2 Pet 3:9 God's desire is that all men come to repentance.
So how can 2 Tim 2:25 mean that God withholds repentance from some men? That idea would go against God's own desire of 2 Pet 3:9.

I checked with limited resources I have but could not find the word "IF" (Greek word "ean") in 2 Tim 2:25.

The idea of the context of 2 Tim 2:25 is those false teachers refuse to repent, will not repent. Yet their refusal to repent is of their own free will and not because God will not allow them. Since those false teachers refuse to repent then they have no hope at all to be saved. The idea is then we are to hope for God in some providential way to get them out of out of their ignorance to the truth where then they can choose to come to repentance. God does not owe them repentance but since they refuse to repent we hope God might providentially do something they will quit refusing to repent and come to repentance.


Heb 12:17 does not show it was impossible for Esau to repent but Esau could not Get Issac to repent and change what had already been done. Gen 33:1-4, I see that both Jacob and Esau repented forgiving each other living in harmony thereafter till they died.

I already explained it several times. If you don't get it, talk to God about it, my friend.

 

[SeaBass]

I already explained it several times. If you don't get it, talk to God about it, my friend.

You make this statement on the assumption you have the correct position.

You posted earlier "Well, if you want to get technical here, you did not really repent. The Scriptures say God is the One who grantes repentance (2 Timotthy 2:25)."

Yes, I am the one that repents for I have been commanded by God to repent as every man has been commanded. God does not determine who will or will not repent for if that were the case then God becomes culpable for the impenitent.

 

[Jason0047]

Sometimes you just got to let it go, my friend. I have already explained twice. You are simply choosing not to see what I have said. Go back and read my posts again a little more slowly. I am not in opposition to free will.

 

[SeaBass]

Sometimes you just got to let it go, my friend. I have already explained twice. You are simply choosing not to see what I have said. Go back and read my posts again a little more slowly. I am not in opposition to free will.

No, right now you're just making assumptions you have the correct position without ever proving you have the correct position. You were wrong about Esau not repenting and misunderstand 2 Tim 2:25.

 

[Jason0047]

No, right now you're just making assumptions you have the correct position without ever proving you have the correct position. You were wrong about Esau not repenting and misunderstand 2 Tim 2:25.

Have a good day, and may God bless you.

 

[BradC]

i told a friend i'd try this, so, if you will, help me?

what is the Gospel?
what is moralism?

what is the difference?
is there a difference?

where is the focus of each?

thanks!

The gospel is evident concerning the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Moralism is behavior based upon the law of the conscience and any outward law that man can conform to in the flesh that is acceptable to man and the society in which he lives. For the sinner who believes upon the gospel and becomes a new born babe in Christ, there is a process that begins in the heart that leads them into doing the will of God. The will of God concerns the life that believer learns to live by faith inwardly and outwardly before God, among the brethren and in the world.

The believer is to live holy, for the Father is holy and that goes beyond the ability of man in the flesh and takes them into walking and being led of the Spirit within their body of flesh. This holy life involves loving and caring for the brethren, forgiving and ministering grace to the brethren, being merciful, not judging or condemning others, laying your life down for the brethren, conducting and conforming our ways and thoughts to the ways and thoughts of God which are far above our own. This life that we are given to live in the Spirit must be filled with grace and truth, patience, longsuffering, gentleness, all in the goodness of God and according to the promises of God. All these things transcend moralism and anything that we can derive from the law through the flesh. Holiness must involve the HOLY Spirit operating within our spirit, soul and body to produce the life of God and that is what we grow into and do not act as if we have already attained unto it in our experience in this life.

Phil 3:7-16

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

 

[michael56]

i told a friend i'd try this, so, if you will, help me?

what is the Gospel?
what is moralism?

what is the difference?
is there a difference?

where is the focus of each?

thanks!

Could it be, that if you focus on the truth of the Gospel message(Christ) a more moral life will follow, if you concentrate-if your focus is on being moral you will fail?

 

[BradC]

Could it be, that if you focus on the truth of the Gospel message(Christ) a more moral life will follow, if you concentrate-if your focus is on being moral you will fail?

Because we have the Spirit within, we are to look for a spiritual life that is filled with the word and the Spirit which will give us the ability as to how to conduct our lives by faith in this present evil world. This is our focus as we keep our eyes upon Christ.

 

[kedge]

compare this to what Christianity is..........and I suppose there will be differences from person to person

Or christian to christian.