The heresies of the few

[Elin]

Hey now! That was me that said that. Don't go blaming G8grace for the inconsistencies of AtWhatCost.

.

You are using the quote system incorrectly, and ascribing the quotes to the wrong poster.

I did not make the statement you ascribe to me above, you made that statement.

I made the statement regarding six brothers.

I've got four blood brothers and one blood sister, so I don't have to get along with six. Just five. And considering how "well" my oldest brother and I get along (did I just hear another cat and dog fight?), well, sometimes it's God's grace, sometimes it's grinding my teeth to stumps, and sometimes he or I explode. "Oldest brother." Doesn't that explain so much right there?

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Wrong.....it states that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE the elect would be deceived in the last days........the context makes it clear...it will NOT be POSSIBLE for the elect to be deceived because they are NOT IN DARKNESS and they have the truth.....IMV that is.....

Nevertheless concerning that opinion, there are people who are of the elect who are living in deception. We all know at least one.

Yep both peter and paul were deceived,and so ,also,have all of us.

Only one that can not be deceived.......JESUS.

So,all you guys calling us satan and heretics,get you a real good mirror and take a real good look and call yourself what you are calling others.

 

[kedge]

That isn't true. Jesus Christ is Truth, the only way of salvation.

John 14:6
Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Yes that is something that is true and most Christians i have known or spoken to agree with that but Christians don't agree on everything, the divisions do exist and many see it.

 

[Elin]

And the Holy Spirit guided me to the sound teachers from whom I have learned, and who gave me the desire to confirm what they were telling me. By praying for guidance, by studying the original languages, by seeking Him, I have been led to the truths I affirm. Is that not the proper process, Ken?

This is true -- but Paul was taught by Barnabas,

Where do we find Paul taught by Barnabas?

and directly by Jesus Christ as were the remaining Eleven of the original Twelve, which is why
he, not Mathias, is the true replacement for Judas.

That's not what the NT text says.

 

[FancyNancy]

Yes that is something that is true and most Christians i have known or spoken to agree with that but Christians don't agree on everything, the divisions do exist and many see it.

Born again believers---those who have experienced the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ, do not disagree on essential truths about salvation, and about who God is. We are united in Christ. Non-essential beliefs do separate us, and that is something that Jesus speaks against, but above all, we do have unity in Jesus Christ, and the Lord in His word commands us to maintain that unity in the bond of peace.

It is the fleshly, soulish part of Christians that gets out of bounds and gets all snarky and proud and argumentative, but confession of their sin, and forgiveness should be flowing all around us in order that we obey that command concerning unity.

Ephesians 4:2-3
Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.

 

[Elin]

Truth is a person, the person Jesus.

It can mean anything anyone wants it to mean i suppose.

The Truth didn't see it that way.

 

[KennethC]

And the Holy Spirit guided me to the sound teachers from whom I have learned, and who gave me the desire to confirm what they were telling me. By praying for guidance, by studying the original languages, by seeking Him, I have been led to the truths I affirm. Is that not the proper process, Ken?

This is true -- but Paul was taught by Barnabas, and directly by Jesus Christ as were the remaining Eleven of the original Twelve, which is why he, not Mathias, is the true replacement for Judas. Mathias had followed Christ personally, but we hear nothing of him after the early chapters of Acts, and there is very little historical record of him.

For one thing, the word most often translated "instruct" as it relates to knowing the Gospel is the Greek kateceo (katecheo) and it means "teach," so there really isn't any differentiation as the one you see.

I believe you have misunderstood what Jesus said in Matthew 23:8, especially given that He commanded The Twelve to, in fact, teach.

Matthew 28,NASB
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always *, even to the end of the age."
​

In Matthew 23:8, He has just finished a scathing indictment of the Pharisees and the Jewish rabbis, accusing them rightly of using their position to gain personal fame and honor. It is in this context He states "One is your Teacher" -- note the NASB correctly capitalizes the word, which is rendered from the Greek didaskaloß (didaskalos), meaning teacher, but in this context, specifically Christ as the one who guides us to salvation. No one but Him, through the Holy Spirit, can reveal to our spirits and souls the simple truth of faith by His grace. If He meant in Matthew 23:8, "no man can teach you," then He would contradict Himself between the two passages.

Brother Ken, when I go to the effort to show you how you might possibly be lifting those verses out of context, do you consider what I say? I truly hope and pray you do.

So that implies that I am not following the Holy Spirit, for we both know He will not present "two different truths." It would be my impression, then, that you do not believe I am led by Him, and given that I absolutely know that I am, how can we have real fellowship? We don't believe the same things about Christ. How do we resolve that?

I too am amazed when we can read the same Scripture and totally understand it differently. Again, one of us is wrong. What do we do?

Is the mention of those Scriptures at the end of this discussion really productive? It would appear they are used as accusations, but I could be wrong about that. Let me know in what context you use them, please.

No I do not misunderstand as there is a big difference between being told to teach, and considering oneself to be a teacher.

We are to teach other God's word by the Holy Spirit guidance, but we are not to place ourselves or call ourselves as their spiritual teacher. As the Lord was making a statement that to taking those titles means one is taking credit for what the Lord does. So once again it comes down do you in your studies give those men the credit and did you take and test what they were teaching or did you just accept it to be truth.

For we are to test all teachings to see if they align with God's word, and if they do not or they make the simplicity more complicated then what it clearly states then it moves away from the teachings of God. We had a discussion before about what James 5:19-20 was referring to, and I countered what you said by giving the Greek definition of the word psuche (soul) and how it is used in this scripture. Strong's and Thayers Greek study guides both show this is speaking of saving one's soul from eternal death in the lake of fire...

I then mentioned the two scriptures from Revelation because they are parallel verses that state where satan's seat/throne is at which is in Pergamos, Turkey, and the other says this seat/throne is given to the man of sin. They clearly tell where to look at for the rise of this end times individual, yet many still claim an American president, the pope, vatican, Rome, or a world system to give this title to.

The Holy Spirit does guide all believers in to all truth, the difference is some get ahead of themselves as the Holy Spirit guides people in the truth in different times. What I mean by this is that He may give me understanding on prophecy now, but other believers He may not give this knowledge tell later. Yet some even though they have not been lead by the Spirit in that area will take it on themselves to still try to understand it.

 

[popeye]

And the Holy Spirit guided me to the sound teachers from whom I have learned, and who gave me the desire to confirm what they were telling me. By praying for guidance, by studying the original languages, by seeking Him, I have been led to the truths I affirm. Is that not the proper process, Ken?

This is true -- but Paul was taught by Barnabas, and directly by Jesus Christ as were the remaining Eleven of the original Twelve, which is why he, not Mathias, is the true replacement for Judas. Mathias had followed Christ personally, but we hear nothing of him after the early chapters of Acts, and there is very little historical record of him.

For one thing, the word most often translated "instruct" as it relates to knowing the Gospel is the Greek kateceo (katecheo) and it means "teach," so there really isn't any differentiation as the one you see.

I believe you have misunderstood what Jesus said in Matthew 23:8, especially given that He commanded The Twelve to, in fact, teach.

Matthew 28,NASB
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always *, even to the end of the age."
​

In Matthew 23:8, He has just finished a scathing indictment of the Pharisees and the Jewish rabbis, accusing them rightly of using their position to gain personal fame and honor. It is in this context He states "One is your Teacher" -- note the NASB correctly capitalizes the word, which is rendered from the Greek didaskaloß (didaskalos), meaning teacher, but in this context, specifically Christ as the one who guides us to salvation. No one but Him, through the Holy Spirit, can reveal to our spirits and souls the simple truth of faith by His grace. If He meant in Matthew 23:8, "no man can teach you," then He would contradict Himself between the two passages.

Brother Ken, when I go to the effort to show you how you might possibly be lifting those verses out of context, do you consider what I say? I truly hope and pray you do.

So that implies that I am not following the Holy Spirit, for we both know He will not present "two different truths." It would be my impression, then, that you do not believe I am led by Him, and given that I absolutely know that I am, how can we have real fellowship? We don't believe the same things about Christ. How do we resolve that?

I too am amazed when we can read the same Scripture and totally understand it differently. Again, one of us is wrong. What do we do?

Is the mention of those Scriptures at the end of this discussion really productive? It would appear they are used as accusations, but I could be wrong about that. Let me know in what context you use them, please.

So that implies that I am not following the Holy Spirit, for we both know He will not present "two different truths." It would be my impression, then, that you do not believe I am led by Him, and given that I absolutely know that I am, how can we have real fellowship? We don't believe the same things about Christ. How do we resolve that?

I too am amazed when we can read the same Scripture and totally understand it differently. Again, one of us is wrong. What do we do?

Well this is an improvement from going into the nuclear mode of what is the CC norm. (heretic,demon,satan name calling )

 

[KennethC]

Born again believers---those who have experienced the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ, do not disagree on essential truths about salvation, and about who God is. We are united in Christ. Non-essential beliefs do separate us, and that is something that Jesus speaks against, but above all, we do have unity in Jesus Christ, and the Lord in His word commands us to maintain that unity in the bond of peace.

It is the fleshly, soulish part of Christians that gets out of bounds and gets all snarky and proud and argumentative, but confession of their sin, and forgiveness should be flowing all around us in order that we obey that command concerning unity.

Ephesians 4:2-3
Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.

Well I wonder how people still take and give a twist to this from Hebrews;

Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

It says in this passage they have received the Holy Spirit, but still fell away, and it continues to say it is impossible to restore them to repentance. The reason being is because this group that is being talked about refuse to give up the ways they have returned to, and/or are so steeped in apostate teaching that they have been blinded to the truth.........

 

[popeye]

Funny how you guys think the HS showed you "error" when he error is so obvious a day old saint could see the same thing.

The excesses,the slips,the unscriptural quotes are OBVIOUS.. no brainers big time.

IT IS WHAT YOU DO WITH THEM THAT IS SO IDIOTIC. "the sky is falling,the sky is falling,get the swords,....off with their heads!!!!"

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

No I do not misunderstand as there is a big difference between being told to teach, and considering oneself to be a teacher.

We are to teach other God's word by the Holy Spirit guidance, but we are not to place ourselves or call ourselves as their spiritual teacher. As the Lord was making a statement that to taking those titles means one is taking credit for what the Lord does. So once again it comes down do you in your studies give those men the credit and did you take and test what they were teaching or did you just accept it to be truth.

For we are to test all teachings to see if they align with God's word, and if they do not or they make the simplicity more complicated then what it clearly states then it moves away from the teachings of God. We had a discussion before about what James 5:19-20 was referring to, and I countered what you said by giving the Greek definition of the word psuche (soul) and how it is used in this scripture. Strong's and Thayers Greek study guides both show this is speaking of saving one's soul from eternal death in the lake of fire...

I then mentioned the two scriptures from Revelation because they are parallel verses that state where satan's seat/throne is at which is in Pergamos, Turkey, and the other says this seat/throne is given to the man of sin. They clearly tell where to look at for the rise of this end times individual, yet many still claim an American president, the pope, vatican, Rome, or a world system to give this title to.

The Holy Spirit does guide all believers in to all truth, the difference is some get ahead of themselves as the Holy Spirit guides people in the truth in different times. What I mean by this is that He may give me understanding on prophecy now, but other believers He may not give this knowledge tell later. Yet some even though they have not been lead by the Spirit in that area will take it on themselves to still try to understand it.

I appreciate your response, Ken, but unless I'm mistaken, it does not address the question, "What do we do?" When people who profess to be believers do not see Christ in the same light, given that we know the Bible has only one truth, what do we do to resolve the issue? Can they have fellowship under those circumstances?

I will not see Christ as unable to preserve the believer. You will not see Christ as willing to preserve the believer if the believer sins persistently. We have a dichotomy. It must be resolved, or there is no fellowship. Is there? Please address that issue.

 

[kedge]

Non-essential beliefs do separate us.

Yes i can agree with that but then there are some serious issues with teachings of hellfire, and some go to heaven/paradise, the trinity is another one. Not all Christians believe in a literal chamber of horrors like hellfire or temporary place of punishment, not all Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, it's these interpretations and teachings that i noticed Christians disagree over, i also think scholars disagree as well on some certain scriptures and their true meaning.

 

[KennethC]

Well this is an improvement from going into the nuclear mode of what is the CC norm. (heretic,demon,satan name calling )

This is a big improvement by him, yet he still quotes things in his wording as if he has all the truth, and others that disagree are in a lie. That is not the proper way to go about looking at things when discussing and debating the bible, for he needs to be just as open to others and what they say as he wants us to be to him.
I do listen to what he and others have said but if it does not align with the verses I have used and given from different study guides what the context is in those verses then I am not going to move away from what I have been taught. All things must align perfectly or the understanding does not belong in the word of God.

 

[Elin]

The elect born again are not deceived and do not fall away, for they have the root.

Here is the patience of the saints:

here are they that keep the commandments of God,

and the faith of Jesus.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints: patience under the prospect of such great sufferings,
and faith in the prospect of such a glorious deliverance.

Blessed are they that keep his commandments, that they may. . .enter in through the gates and into the city.

A man is justified through faith (in) Jesus Christ, via the root.

​

 

[Elin]

Yep both peter and paul were deceived,and so ,also,have all of us.

Neither were deceived.

 

[KennethC]

I appreciate your response, Ken, but unless I'm mistaken, it does not address the question, "What do we do?" When people who profess to be believers do not see Christ in the same light, given that we know the Bible has only one truth, what do we do to resolve the issue? Can they have fellowship under those circumstances?

I will not see Christ as unable to preserve the believer. You will not see Christ as willing to preserve the believer if the believer sins persistently. We have a dichotomy. It must be resolved, or there is no fellowship. Is there? Please address that issue.

Well the bible clearly states that we are not to have fellowship with the works of darkness, and with those who call themselves brethren but refuse to give up their sinful ways.

Lord Jesus tells us how to deal with a sinning brother and sister in the faith in Matthew 18:15-17, and the Apostle Paul takes this one step further and shows what to do from here if they still refuse to listen in 1 Corinthians 5.

Apostle Paul is very clear that a person can not serve both the Lord and the flesh, for if a person lives carnally minded they are still a slave to sin. Paul then goes on to say a person who is a born again believer will learn to have self control, and will put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Lord Jesus is able to keep us from falling by us being obedient to His word, as notice how Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives a list of things to do and follow by to keep oneself from stumbling. Then Peter goes on to say that by doing those things you will make your call and election sure of getting a place in the everlasting kingdom of the Lord.

 

[Elin]

Yes i can agree with that but then there are some serious issues with teachings of hellfire, and some go to heaven/paradise, the trinity is another one. Not all Christians believe in a literal chamber of horrors like hellfire or temporary place of punishment, not all Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, it's these interpretations and teachings that i noticed Christians disagree over, i also think scholars disagree as well on some certain scriptures and their true meaning.

Denying any of the Biblical fundamentals disqualifies one for the nomer, Biblical Christian.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Well the bible clearly states that we are not to have fellowship with the works of darkness, and with those who call themselves brethren but refuse to give up their sinful ways.

Lord Jesus tells us how to deal with a sinning brother and sister in the faith in Matthew 18:15-17, and the Apostle Paul takes this one step further and shows what to do from here if they still refuse to listen in 1 Corinthians 5.

Apostle Paul is very clear that a person can not serve both the Lord and the flesh, for if a person lives carnally minded they are still a slave to sin. Paul then goes on to say a person who is a born again believer will learn to have self control, and will put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Lord Jesus is able to keep us from falling by us being obedient to His word, as notice how Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives a list of things to do and follow by to keep oneself from stumbling. Then Peter goes on to say that by doing those things you will make your call and election sure of getting a place in the everlasting kingdom of the Lord.

Ken, unless I'm mistaken, that sets one of us up to condemn the other to everlasting darkness.

That's not what I'm after. I'm after a way we can fellowship, dialogue, embrace one another, edify one another, bless one another, love one another, until one of us -- whichever one needs to -- comes to realize what he/she believes might just be in error.

How do we do that? Is there a way? Or are we sentenced to "ignore" forever?

 

[KennethC]

Ken, unless I'm mistaken, that sets one of us up to condemn the other to everlasting darkness.

That's not what I'm after. I'm after a way we can fellowship, dialogue, embrace one another, edify one another, bless one another, love one another, until one of us -- whichever one needs to -- comes to realize what he/she believes might just be in error.

How do we do that? Is there a way? Or are we sentenced to "ignore" forever?

No it does not as we are not to go around condemning one another, as I have seen this behavior come from a few on here.

It is not our place to put that judgment on another person, for the scriptures clearly say in the manner you judge somebody you will be judged in the same manner. We do however have the right by scripture to call one out on how they are walking improperly, and then by scripture and love esteem them and show them the proper way to walk. The bible makes a clear importance on emphasizing how we walk in the faith.

You can easily fellowship with others that have a different point of view then you, as there is a bunch of us on here that do it on a everyday basis. We talk together all the time about our differing views and never get heated with one another. There is only a few on here that can refrain from doing that, and there was only 3 I had on my ignore list because of that.


If you speak your point and the other one does not sway from what they feel and believe there is not much more you can do, but that still does not mean you have to get hateful, sarcastic, or condemning in nature toward them.

For I since being on here have said some things that did not align with the Word, and when I went and looked into when others told me I changed my stance. But in other areas that I am sure on because I have done intensive study on that subject or verse I will not change my stance on. This standard needs to be followed by everybody on here though, because I have seen every single one on here be wrong at times to.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

No it does not as we are not to go around condemning one another, as I have seen this behavior come from a few on here.

It is not our place to put that judgment on another person, for the scriptures clearly say in the manner you judge somebody you will be judged in the same manner. We do however have the right by scripture to call one out on how they are walking improperly, and then by scripture and love esteem them and show them the proper way to walk. The bible makes a clear importance on emphasizing how we walk in the faith.

You can easily fellowship with others that have a different point of view then you, as there is a bunch of us on here that do it on a everyday basis. We talk together all the time about our differing views and never get heated with one another. There is only a few on here that can refrain from doing that, and there was only 3 I had on my ignore list because of that.

If you speak your point and the other one does not sway from what they feel and believe there is not much more you can do, but that still does not mean you have to get hateful, sarcastic, or condemning in nature toward them.

For I since being on here have said some things that did not align with the Word, and when I went and looked into when others told me I changed my stance. But in other areas that I am sure on because I have done intensive study on that subject or verse I will not change my stance on. This standard needs to be followed by everybody on here though, because I have seen every single one on here be wrong at times to.

I believe you're absolutely right. That's what I was after, and I believe, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can do that. It has been the purpose of my "stirring up stuff" with my comments of the last 24 hours.

You see, Ken, I became convicted that my approach was un-Christlike. I have said things to you that I regret. I ask your forgiveness, because I was saying them in self, not in Christ. You're right, I cannot agree with what you believe. But I can respect your sincerity and call you a brother, and I will do so.

A week ago, I changed my signature, including 2 Corinthians 2:2. That's were we start. Where we end is up to Christ. God bless you, my brother, and let's work together to bring this board together, rather than divide it. From what I've seen these last few hours, there are far more interested in doing that than in letting the status quo remain.