The "Impossible" Gospel
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Do you realize the entirety of this law? This is actually pretty merciful if you look in the Talmud at the whole thing. You say they had to have two or three witnesses. Under Jewish law it is VERY difficult to convict someone who is Jewish. There are a lot of regulations that surround this. Deuteronomy 19:15 is where this is found if anyone is curious. If there is only one witness it cannot stand. Also blood relatives are not allowed to be witnesses or judges in the same case (Sanhedrin chapter 3). Also if there is any witness who is established by other witnesses as a liar or robber or other miscreant they become invalid. A general rule of thumb is that if one person among the group of witnesses is disqualified, they are all disqualified. If two other witnesses appear and directly contradict the two other witness testimony than that pair of witness becomes invalid. The valid witness must be an adult free man, not a woman or a slave, and must be an honest person who can be trusted not to lie. According to the Mishnah the following people are disqualified: a gambler with dice, a lender who collects interest, a chaser of doves and a merchant who profits from produce of Shemittah. It states that these four activities fall within an expanded definition of theft because people who violate Torah laws or social norms in pursuit of money cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
So now that you understand what is involved in sentencing someone to death for violating a law maybe you can answer a question for me. If your child/wife/mother/beloved family member was found murdered and two witnesses appeared before the Sanhedrin to bear testimony about who did the murder and the Sanhedrin found them to be honest witnesses, would you still have a problem with carrying out the punishment that is due for a murderer?
So now that you understand what is involved in sentencing someone to death for violating a law maybe you can answer a question for me. If your child/wife/mother/beloved family member was found murdered and two witnesses appeared before the Sanhedrin to bear testimony about who did the murder and the Sanhedrin found them to be honest witnesses, would you still have a problem with carrying out the punishment that is due for a murderer?
We've been through Is.53 before. I have addressed your points and you have ignored mine.
God sent Jesus to us to call us to repentance, because we are sinners, and He was tortured and killed because of this. He didn't cave in. In this way God was pleased with His offering. God wasn't transferring our sins onto Son and abusing Him.
"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; He.5:9-10
Jesus wasn't in fear of or being forsaken by God when He cried out the words David spoke by the Spirit...identifying Himself as the Messiah.
God sent Jesus to us to call us to repentance, because we are sinners, and He was tortured and killed because of this. He didn't cave in. In this way God was pleased with His offering. God wasn't transferring our sins onto Son and abusing Him.
"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; He.5:9-10
Jesus wasn't in fear of or being forsaken by God when He cried out the words David spoke by the Spirit...identifying Himself as the Messiah.
@dcontroversal:
Oh and also the two witness must have actually seen or heard the even with their own eyes and ears. It cannot be hearsay except in the case of confirming that a missing husband has died. The witness must speak directly to the Beit Din so that it cannot be a written testimony. Once the witness has given his testimony than it cannot be recanted.
Oh and also the two witness must have actually seen or heard the even with their own eyes and ears. It cannot be hearsay except in the case of confirming that a missing husband has died. The witness must speak directly to the Beit Din so that it cannot be a written testimony. Once the witness has given his testimony than it cannot be recanted.
2 Timothy 1:9-11 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Just, thought I'd throw this into the mix..
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Just, thought I'd throw this into the mix..
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will*reverence*him when they see him. Lk.20:13
Or, the modern Christian view:
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will torture and kill him when they see him.
Which one did God want?
Or, the modern Christian view:
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will torture and kill him when they see him.
Which one did God want?
It doesn't say that their righteousness derived from 'walking in all the commandments'. They were credited or declared righteous the same way all mankind has been found righteous going all the way back to Abel, and that is through faith in the promises of God. They looked forward to the promised Messiah.
'All have sinned' still stands because if judged in their own righteousness they would have been found wanting.
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Php 3:1-9)
Zacharias and his wife would agree with Paul.
'All have sinned' still stands because if judged in their own righteousness they would have been found wanting.
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Php 3:1-9)
Zacharias and his wife would agree with Paul.
When we give ourselves over to being under God, it is not just Christ. It is not just salvation. It has nothing to do with any "only" we can think of. It is like going swimming. You can stand in the water even up to the neck, but to swim means you put your entire self in the water and let it hold you up. So all these posts giving pieces of scripture, and tell how you know how it is, and whether we have committed sin, whether Christ saves us and how, is like telling of standing in the water instead of swimming. jdbear had it closest when he said scripture can't be broken.
In Ezra's day they were trying to put scripture back to a Torah centered scripture. In Ezra 4:3 it tells of someone wanting to help them do that, but they refused the help from someone who said they worshipped the same God, but like some of you, you want to do it your way and you want to split it between old and new testament. That help was refused. For us, it is God's way or no way. God tells us He is a jealous God, and over and over scripture shows by example people who did it part way and how that doesn't work.
Scripture gives us examples or what happens to us over and over. Nothing there is a one time only deal, it all has a spiritual truth and a spiritual illustrations. Everyone sees this in the symbols used. We need to see this is the living examples used.
In Ezra's day they were trying to put scripture back to a Torah centered scripture. In Ezra 4:3 it tells of someone wanting to help them do that, but they refused the help from someone who said they worshipped the same God, but like some of you, you want to do it your way and you want to split it between old and new testament. That help was refused. For us, it is God's way or no way. God tells us He is a jealous God, and over and over scripture shows by example people who did it part way and how that doesn't work.
Scripture gives us examples or what happens to us over and over. Nothing there is a one time only deal, it all has a spiritual truth and a spiritual illustrations. Everyone sees this in the symbols used. We need to see this is the living examples used.
Israel's righteousness
Our righteousness after the day of Pentecost - after Jesus resurrection and the new birth was available to whosoever believes:
Zacharias and Elizabeth lived before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - before the day of Pentecost - before the new birth was available therefore their righteousness was achieved by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless - as in Deut. 6:25.
Our righteousness after the day of Pentecost - after Jesus resurrection and the new birth was available to whosoever believes:
Zacharias and Elizabeth lived before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - before the day of Pentecost - before the new birth was available therefore their righteousness was achieved by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless - as in Deut. 6:25.
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The "determinate counsel" of God, which He knew before is that He would come in the flesh teaching us about Himself and be killed because of it. This was not His will:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father...Jn.5:23
It was the biggest slap in the face to God there could ever be. It was an indictment., but even in their evil, God turned it for good.
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father...Jn.5:23
It was the biggest slap in the face to God there could ever be. It was an indictment., but even in their evil, God turned it for good.
Where did I say that God only let people live if they obeyed the law perfectly? I didn't use the word perfect at all - God said through scripture:
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
And God said: And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Deut. 6:25
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
And God said: And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Deut. 6:25
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Good point, RedTent.
EX.20:6.
But showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
Who does this sound like????
John 14:15.
Abraham was an excellent example of being a man that kept the Commandments.
Gen.26:5.
- but Abraham's weaknesses are made manifest in the scriptures.
likewise, Zacharias and his wife were credited as being Commandment keepers.
His weakness was clearly revealed that he was just a man, when Gabriel corrected him.
Luke 1:20.
But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place,
because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in there own time.
God surely does understand the fallibility of man, therefore grace and mercy
are woven into the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.
how can we not praise and thank our King?
Good point, RedTent.
EX.20:6.
But showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
Who does this sound like????
John 14:15.
Abraham was an excellent example of being a man that kept the Commandments.
Gen.26:5.
- but Abraham's weaknesses are made manifest in the scriptures.
likewise, Zacharias and his wife were credited as being Commandment keepers.
His weakness was clearly revealed that he was just a man, when Gabriel corrected him.
Luke 1:20.
But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place,
because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in there own time.
God surely does understand the fallibility of man, therefore grace and mercy
are woven into the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.
how can we not praise and thank our King?
Remember in my OP that it was stated that
there are only 3 kinds of believers.
#1) Great in the Kingdom,
#2) Least in the Kingdom, and
#3) REJECTED from the Kingdom.
Yep. A counterfeit faith consists of those who follow the Impossible Gospel, those who live in rebellion to Torah.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate (condemning good works...Torah).