The Judging Thread

[Scribe]

That is not what I see.
James is using the example or outward appearances (nice clothes) to address how people are judging.

James then judges by example by the outward appearances of their actions so as to question them to judge themselves in regards to their motives of heart.
James never asserts that they are wrong with evil motives.

The focus is all about discriminating among yourselves.
That tendency to look and think and make distinctions in ignorance or conjecture.
That operating in the nature of the fall into reason and ignorance with our thinking playing god instead of faith in the true God and Judge.

Us getting the operation of judgement wrong is what divides us, living out of the evil motives of the heart and dependence on our reason as Judge playing God.

I also suspect this is the space where the fear of God is lacking due to, for the most part our ignorance of what we are actually doing.

What would make their thoughts that the poor man was not as worthy as the wealthy man is that they should know what the scriptures and Jesus said about not having respect of persons, and not judging by outward appearance as well as what Jesus taught about inviting the poor to your feasts who cannot repay you. When they know such scripture and violate this they are having evil thoughts. Evil because they are contrary to what Christ told them about how their attitude toward the poor should be.

The immediate context describes the evil of their thoughts by rebuking them for their thoughts toward poor people. That is the evil he is talking about. He does not just say "evil thoughts" and leave you guessing, he follows up with the sentence reminding them of what they should know that the scripture says about the poor "has not God chosen those who are poor in this world... "blessed are the poor"
4have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

To give preference to the rich and to put the poor in a lesser seat is to have evil thoughts. Judges WITH evil thoughts is a more modern way of English, Judges OF evil thoughts meant the same thing in KJV day as saying Judges WITH evil thoughts. It is archaic KJV not a Greek literal.
The literal Greek is kritai (judges) dialogismōn (thoughts) ponērōn (evil) Just three words. The (of) or (with) must be added to make it an proper English sentence but the Greek means "judges with evil thoughts" which is why all the other modern English versions translate it that way. Judges of evil thoughts is not wrong but it is Archaic KJV style. However, if one does not take into consideration the style of old English the word "of" could throw them and they might apply to it a modern idea of Judging other peoples evil thoughts. Not at all what James intended. A man of evil thoughts, is like a man of few words. It is a style of saying the more modern man with evil thoughts or man with athletic abilities instead of man of athletic abilities, old english style.

 

[Blik]

Nice list by the way.

So we are NOT to judge other people motives, but we ARE to judge our own motives behind our actions?
We are TO judge the actions of those in the Church, but NOT the actions of those outside of the Church?

If you pay attention on the man in fine clothes and say, “Here is a seat of honor,” but say to the poor man, “You must stand,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts/motives? - James 2:3-4

Yet James just judged the peoples motives by their actions or did he invite them to judge themselves based on their actions?

I think the problem with judging comes about when it is mixed with no forgiveness and with blame.

Scripture tells us to tell other Christians they are doing wrong if they disobey scripture and that takes judgment. But we are also to forgive, and we are to let them choose their way but leave the judgement of the person to the Lord.

I think this includes our accepting judgement of actions without taking it as a judgement of the people who act. Putting labels on people is wrong, but we can say a certain action is not following scripture.

This site is a place where we can judge scripture and should be able to freely discuss scripture. It becomes wrong judgement when it involves judging the people instead of the actions and scripture.

 

[Corban]

Understanding those thing is where accuracy comes from.
Accurately handling the word of truth...
If you ignore them you end up with a truth of our own design.

Conjecture. He could have just doodled while the spirit convicted them, or written out the law or their sins or names of people they sinned against. We do not know! its all just assumption and conjecture. Where if the subtly of a specific word had communicated something more nuanced about what he wrote we would have just reason to think a way on the matter.

Fair enough. If the writing of God on dust has no secondary meaning, or equivalent, so be it. But John 20:30-31 says that the things Jesus did in John are "SIGNS" - like changing water into wine. John 2:11 says that it was a "sign" ("semeion" - Gk., the same word used in John 20:30). A "sign" is composed of at least two parameters, (i) the SIGN, and (ii) what it means. So I find it sad that for you the "SIGN" of our Lord writing on dust is just doodling and has no meaning. What a loss too for the Lord Who wanted to show you something to boost your faith, but you dismiss it.

 

[Scribe]

Fair enough. If the writing of God on dust has no secondary meaning, or equivalent, so be it. But John 20:30-31 says that the things Jesus did in John are "SIGNS" - like changing water into wine. John 2:11 says that it was a "sign" ("semeion" - Gk., the same word used in John 20:30). A "sign" is composed of at least two parameters, (i) the SIGN, and (ii) what it means. So I find it sad that for you the "SIGN" of our Lord writing on dust is just doodling and has no meaning. What a loss too for the Lord Who wanted to show you something to boost your faith, but you dismiss it.

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

 

[Corban]

Nice list by the way.

So we are NOT to judge other people motives, but we ARE to judge our own motives behind our actions?
We are TO judge the actions of those in the Church, but NOT the actions of those outside of the Church?

If you pay attention on the man in fine clothes and say, “Here is a seat of honor,” but say to the poor man, “You must stand,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts/motives? - James 2:3-4

Yet James just judged the peoples motives by their actions or did he invite them to judge themselves based on their actions?

Thanks for your question. I am constrained not to mix words. "discriminate" is to favor one above another. "Judge" is the duty of an authority to decide if you have kept the Law or not. But I do grant that "discriminating" has an element of judgment in it. Of course, the Book of James is addressed to the "dispersed Tribes of Israel". They have the benefit of 1,500 years of Law. So James assumes their knowledge of Abraham and his faith, and jumps directly to the issue of that faith - WORKS. Added to this, the Law required judgment at village level (Deut.21:18-21). Strong tells us that the Hebrew word rendered "city" has its root in "... a place guarded by waking or a watch in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post)"

Israel's life under Law is very different to the Church under Grace. Israel was a single nation with borders that God protected for them if they kept the Law. They were to ignore the nations around them, and kill them if they tried to encroach on their territory. The Church is left in enemy territory. It must function under duress and in the MIDST of enemies, and may not hurt them. Every Christian is in daily contact with the nations, so the judgment that the Church issues is for one reason only, to put leaven out of their meetings (1st Cor.5). The Israelite must wash, wear selected clothes and eat a special diet to be ceremonially clean. The Christian is made clean by Christ and one another (the feet that touch the world - Jn.13) and God (the whole body - 1st Cor.6:11).

 

[Corban]

O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

There you are. Another reference to being written in the earth. How rich is John Chapter 8 in meaning. And this reference fits perfectly. The Law detected at least five crimes committed in John 8. (i) Adultery, (ii) not bringing both accused, (iii) knowingly remaining silent on a capital offense, (iv) conspiring to overthrow the Law, and (v) being guilty of the whole Law. The penalty in ALL FIVE cases was DEATH. The Law convicts of sin and its wages - death. Jesus brings LIFE to the guilty because God's righteous judgment falls on Jesus. What a splendid sign our Lord showed in writing in the sand. Once it had no effect. When written again, it was effectual. In Jeremiah 31 the New Covenant, with its Laws written on sand (men), and "sand" of the sea shore (Israel), will be effectual (v.31-33).

 

[Scribe]

There you are. Another reference to being written in the earth. How rich is John Chapter 8 in meaning. And this reference fits perfectly. The Law detected at least five crimes committed in John 8. (i) Adultery, (ii) not bringing both accused, (iii) knowingly remaining silent on a capital offense, (iv) conspiring to overthrow the Law, and (v) being guilty of the whole Law. The penalty in ALL FIVE cases was DEATH. The Law convicts of sin and its wages - death. Jesus brings LIFE to the guilty because God's righteous judgment falls on Jesus. What a splendid sign our Lord showed in writing in the sand. Once it had no effect. When written again, it was effectual. In Jeremiah 31 the New Covenant, with its Laws written on sand (men), and "sand" of the sea shore (Israel), will be effectual (v.31-33).

Think about it. He said in chapter 7 whoever believes in me out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

And then in 8 he is writing in the earth

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

I am sure the writing means something. He was not drawing. He was WRITING. There is a difference. Where should we go to find the answer? PROPHESY what prophesy would be fulfilled?

 

[Corban]

Think about it. He said in chapter 7 whoever believes in me out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

And then in 8 he is writing in the earth

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

I am sure the writing means something. He was not drawing. He was WRITING. There is a difference. Where should we go to find the answer? PROPHESY what prophesy would be fulfilled?

Amen bro. Methinks it is Jeremiah 31:31-33.

 

[Benadam]

Scripture gives an example of someone put to the test for just judgement. Joseph, the foster father that God chose for Jesus. After his decision to divorce Mary quietly. Which meant a life of celibacy rather than subject her to a life as a mother and child on the streets. Joseph is called a just man in Scriptures

 

[Scribe]

Scripture gives an example of someone put to the test for just judgement. Joseph, the foster father that God chose for Jesus. After his decision to divorce Mary quietly. Which meant a life of celibacy rather than subject her to a life as a mother and child on the streets. Joseph is called a just man in Scriptures

Life of ceibacy? He only had to wait 9 months or whatever... He then fathered many sons with Mary that we read about in scripture. Where does this life of celibacy come from? Is that a catholic tradition I have not heard about?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scripture gives an example of someone put to the test for just judgement. Joseph, the foster father that God chose for Jesus. After his decision to divorce Mary quietly. Which meant a life of celibacy rather than subject her to a life as a mother and child on the streets. Joseph is called a just man in Scriptures

Life of celibacy? Lol

he had only at most a year before he knew his wife

 

[Benadam]

Life of ceibacy? He only had to wait 9 months or whatever... He then fathered many sons with Mary that we read about in scripture. Where does this life of celibacy come from? Is that a catholic tradition I have not heard about?

He couldn't contaminate his bloodline is why the divorce. To divorce quietly meant they would by outward appearance look married.

 

[Benadam]

Life of celibacy? Lol

he had only at most a year before he knew his wife

He couldn't contaminate his bloodline is why the divorce. To divorce quietly meant they would look by outward appearance married. It was after that just judgement heaven revealed the Incarnation to Joseph.

 

[Benadam]

Where does this life of celibacy come from? Is that a catholic tradition I have not heard

Celibacy is a discipline found necessary for a few reasons. It prevents priestly dynasties which corrupted the early Church. Part of the reform came from priests from monasteries who were celibate. They provided the most well formed priests.

 

[JaumeJ]

We are taught to judge not by appearances but wit right judgment. Simple as that.

 

[Lion222]

Thanks for your question. I am constrained not to mix words. "discriminate" is to favor one above another. "Judge" is the duty of an authority to decide if you have kept the Law or not. But I do grant that "discriminating" has an element of judgment in it. Of course, the Book of James is addressed to the "dispersed Tribes of Israel". They have the benefit of 1,500 years of Law. So James assumes their knowledge of Abraham and his faith, and jumps directly to the issue of that faith - WORKS. Added to this, the Law required judgment at village level (Deut.21:18-21). Strong tells us that the Hebrew word rendered "city" has its root in "... a place guarded by waking or a watch in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post)"

Israel's life under Law is very different to the Church under Grace. Israel was a single nation with borders that God protected for them if they kept the Law. They were to ignore the nations around them, and kill them if they tried to encroach on their territory. The Church is left in enemy territory. It must function under duress and in the MIDST of enemies, and may not hurt them. Every Christian is in daily contact with the nations, so the judgment that the Church issues is for one reason only, to put leaven out of their meetings (1st Cor.5). The Israelite must wash, wear selected clothes and eat a special diet to be ceremonially clean. The Christian is made clean by Christ and one another (the feet that touch the world - Jn.13) and God (the whole body - 1st Cor.6:11).

So they judge to get rid of the leaven of righteousness?

Poor leaven gets an undeserved bad rap.
It is what grows and spreads throughout if allowed to exist, given time and the right conditions.
It makes bubbles, a picture of joy, it makes wine, a picture of joy it also puffs up in pride if we lack the softness of heart of a new wine skin or one softened with the oil of the Holy Spirit.

Righteousness (Christ), sin (Egypt), pride (Pharisees)
Without it we would not have nice bread.
Nuances.

Having worked as a baker i take umbrage on the behalf of poor little leaven at it's being falsely equated with sin.
Matthew 13:33

1 Corinthians 5:6-7

Bread and wine skins have some of the same issues.

They both can burst when baked in the fire from either too much puff or to hard an outer skin or an unnatural shape stressing the surfs
You usually beat down the first rise of the bread, as if it was pride.
But the second rise is slower while an unforced or natural shape and good skin form when proofed with water and time.
Proofed - meaning to test and prove.

We all will enter the fire of Gods presence one day and see what will become of us.

 

[Lion222]

We are taught to judge not by appearances but wit right judgment. Simple as that.

unfortunate bit is right = ignorance and for most.

 

[Scribe]

He couldn't contaminate his bloodline is why the divorce. To divorce quietly meant they would by outward appearance look married.

Who got divorced?

 

[Benadam]

Who got divorced?

Joseph decided to divorce Mary. An angel in a dream revealed the Incarnation to Him and told him to take Mary as wife.

 

[Mii]

Ty @Corban for putting forward the word "discriminate"

For whatever reason, it did not enter into my thoughts.


I was simply going to focus on "executive judgement" as in the ultimate say-so/veto power. Who has that?

Great care must be taken to know your place as a judge under THE judge.


Excommunication is something seen in scripture. This isn't lifelong though from what I can tell (like it is in some places today). Excommunication is to serve a purpose.

There are instances when certain offenses get into a category that only the Lord can rightly judge...consider the passage in Jude about the body of Moses. I'm uncertain whether any translation uses a different word than rebuke but to rebuke, judgement must be exercised.


I think according to a court room, or at least, my mind has begun to work that way. Each "case" is different. A different "lens" exists for people outside the church and that should be seriously considered before proceeding in any executory judgements.

"I judge this person to be someone I am not to judge"
"I judge this person as being guilty"
"I judge this person to be beyond my judgement" (submitted to a higher judge)

Alas, my issue right now is English. prhaps an easier distinction would be judgements in the old man and judgements in the new.

The following has been debated and it appears to me the flesh is still a factor, however: discernment between whether one is judging in the flesh or the spirit (The Lord guiding thereby). "Judge" this, and the question will have much less relevance. If this is not done, then I question someone's judgement if it is meted with any regularity.

The last sentence I'll expound a tiny bit. Basically, if someone who rarely gives judgement but is a strong believer and passes judgement, I am more inclined to take it seriously even though they may not have correct "judgement procedure" on the forefront of their mind. So long as I perceive they are led of the Lord, this carries great weight.

Someone that it is always "passing judgement" to the point where that phrase or a similar is used or though on by others, and these are seasoned believers...I would be inclined to perceive that they are in error and perhaps need some discussion/correction.

A further alas, I've been in these predicament before but somehow or another when I click on a section to edit, it just gets highlighted. If I go to add something in a place...when I type it starts to delete what I have already typed. I fixed it for a long time but it is back

But yeah, I think that "deferring" to the Lord's judgment in eternal matters should be done and in practical day to day matters, exercise judgement (with discernment) and of course seek wise counsel on difficult issues and pray and seek about it. It could be the reason why the Lord is not responding through prayer or the word is because you are capable to make a decision about a person, thing, event, circumstance, etc. That is, if he does not. Or it could be a timing thing. There's a lot to figure out, but it's an organic figuring out, not something that's forced.

Rather roundabout, I apologize. There is a good deal to be said if we are contrasting "instances" and what is appropriate and what is not. Too many to list but perhaps some good discussion will continue to be had on this subject.

I would post some scriptures, but the main ones have been given. One direct element that I haven't seen discussed is vengeance. THAT type of judgement is not ours nor can we mete it out. That is totally up to the Lord to mete out. I had thought to post a vengeance scripture, but there are many more than I recalled offhand (lots more). Perhaps this has been discussed vaguely but the specific word is useful here it seems to me.