The Law as a School MASTER

[The_highwayman]

I think something we may miss is that we honestly have no way to judge whether or not someone else is exuding any certain measure of any of the gifts.... or is not... in comparison to who they were before Christ. Someone who we deem not to be loving because they don't do this, or don't do that, just might have busted us in the mouth a few months earlier. Is it possible we lay upon people, our own ideas of how "redeemed" people have to act?

A wise man once said to me that we have no idea when we judge someone (and that is REALLY what we are doing) for our observation of where they are at the time, just how far they had to come, or just how long it took, or what they went through, for them to be standing where they are now.

Judgement and discernment are 2 very different things.....

Discernment is gained through understanding God's word and learning to listen to the Holy Spirit....True discernment is not very prevalent in the church today and God help us, there are many behind the pulpit that have no idea what it is is...

 

[MarcR]

You are terribly wrong about the law not vanishing by a glory that excels it. That glory has caused the law to vanish away and no one is changed into the image of Christ through the law. Our righteousness is in Christ and not in keeping with law. We walk in the Spirit and not the law. The doctrine we have been given is in Christ through the Spirit. The law tells us not to covet but has no power to enable us not to. We must receive grace through the Spirit to have the power not to covet in the details of life. The law can only dictate what we are to do or not to do but can never provide a single thing to give us the power to it. If you are keeping the Sabbath are you also preaching the gospel to every creature?

I believe you are mistaking JaumeJ's intent here. JaumeJ is not trying to put anyone back under Law!

He is saying that:

Ro 8:1-4
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

When we are truly Spirit led, by that leading we will obey the moral precepts of the Law.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi, Dcon.

Here is what the Apostle Paul had to say about this "schoolmaster":

Galatians chapter 3

23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians chapter 4


Where, for example, did this same exact Apostle Paul draw from to teach CHRISTIANS about marriage?

Didn't he draw from THE LAW OF MOSES?

"...

I think the underlined above is rejected by many and as far as marriage goes, Paul covers marriage in 1st Corinthians 7 which gets overlooked often......

After faith came we are no longer under the schoolmaster, but are children BY FAITH<---not by the works of the law.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree that the works of the law cannot save and never saved anyone who has done the works of the law alone without faith. Nevertheless, isn't the law a substantial part of the name of God and His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus the true Christ? The Bible says that faith establishes the law. By rejecting any part of His Word we also reject that equal part of His divine and wonderful name. Further, if the law was our schoolmaster that led us to Christ, what do we use to lead others to Christ as we have been led in times past? If we don't know it, then we are forced to use another avenue to lead others to Christ. Remember Paul was writing to the Gentiles in Galatia.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold , but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1)

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

Look, It comes down to the following.....

1. A person is saved, justified and sanctified in Christ forever based upon genuine faith and confession of Jesus as Lord and Savior

2. A Person is saved, justified and sanctified in Christ Jesus forever based upon works.......

I choose one on the list based upon the word of God.........

 

[kennethcadwell]

Look, It comes down to the following.....

1. A person is saved, justified and sanctified in Christ forever based upon genuine faith and confession of Jesus as Lord and Savior

2. A Person is saved, justified and sanctified in Christ Jesus forever based upon works.......

I choose one on the list based upon the word of God.........

Actually it is a little of both, as number 1 is how one is saved through Christ unto salvation, and number 2 is proof by ones works/actions/speech that they are saved. You can not separate one from the other as we are told by our Lord that we will know the saved from the unsaved by their fruits (actions/works). A saved person can not look and act as an unsaved person or that shows they do not abide in Christ and Christ in them, as the Holy Spirit working in and through a person will have an outward showing of change in our lives. No change, no Holy Spirit..........

 

[KohenMatt]

Just want to point out that it is very possible and beneficial to do the works of the Law out of response the gracious salvation granted us. Certainly, works to try and earn salvation are fruitless. Works because I've already been given salvation are a blessing.

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually it is a little of both, as number 1 is how one is saved through Christ unto salvation, and number 2 is proof by ones works/actions/speech that they are saved. You can not separate one from the other as we are told by our Lord that we will know the saved from the unsaved by their fruits (actions/works). A saved person can not look and act as an unsaved person or that shows they do not abide in Christ and Christ in them, as the Holy Spirit working in and through a person will have an outward showing of change in our lives. No change, no Holy Spirit..........

Again your view ADDS works to faith for salvation and this is false......

FAITH ALONE saves, justifies and positionally sanctifies a person for ever to the kingdom of GOD......NO WORKS required other than BELIEF...

This is the Work of the FATHER...that YOU BELIEVE on HIM whom he hath sent.......

This is what you fail to understand Kenneth as you carry too much baggage from the past false religions that you were a member of.....

I have already stated that a genuine saved child of God will have fruit and or works.....but the works DO NOT SAVE, add to SALVATION and or FACILLITATE salvation.....

Faith + works for salvation is a false gospel with NO POWER to SAVE and is double CURSED by PAUL!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again your view ADDS works to faith for salvation and this is false......

FAITH ALONE saves, justifies and positionally sanctifies a person for ever to the kingdom of GOD......NO WORKS required other than BELIEF...

This is the Work of the FATHER...that YOU BELIEVE on HIM whom he hath sent.......

This is what you fail to understand Kenneth as you carry too much baggage from the past false religions that you were a member of.....

I have already stated that a genuine saved child of God will have fruit and or works.....but the works DO NOT SAVE, add to SALVATION and or FACILLITATE salvation.....

Faith + works for salvation is a false gospel with NO POWER to SAVE and is double CURSED by PAUL!

Faith without works is dead, so how long our you going to reject the words in the bible from James that says this.
And how about how the Lord Jesus Himself says that not all that call Him Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, and shows in Matthew 25 the two groups that both believe in Him yet only one group shows the fruits (works) of the Spirit by helping others and the other does not.
The group with the fruits (works) present were given eternal life, and the other group were sent to eternal punishment (lake of fire) because by denying others help they denied the Lord. And then in Matthew 7:21-23 He says to those who believed in Him and even did works in His name that they were not given eternal life either because they also continued in a unrepented deliberate sinful lifestyle.

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith without works is dead, so how long our you going to reject the words in the bible from James that says this.
And how about how the Lord Jesus Himself says that not all that call Him Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, and shows in Matthew 25 the two groups that both believe in Him yet only one group shows the fruits (works) of the Spirit by helping others and the other does not.
The group with the fruits (works) present were given eternal life, and the other group were sent to eternal punishment (lake of fire) because by denying others help they denied the Lord. And then in Matthew 7:21-23 He says to those who believed in Him and even did works in His name that they were not given eternal life either because they also continued in a unrepented deliberate sinful lifestyle.

It is you that rejects the context of JAMES.....Paul said a man is justified by faith WITOUT WORKS<--BEFORE GOD
JAMES said a man's faith is justified by works<----BEFORE MEN

Now pay attention to the words in all caps and open your eyes and quit bleeding your false religion into the truth about biblical justification!

 

[kennethcadwell]

It is you that rejects the context of JAMES.....Paul said a man is justified by faith WITOUT WORKS<--BEFORE GOD
JAMES said a man's faith is justified by works<----BEFORE MEN

Now pay attention to the words in all caps and open your eyes and quit bleeding your false religion into the truth about biblical justification!

Apostle Paul is talking about works of the law in that passage you keep referring to, as nobody is justified by the law.
The works of righteousness done out of the fruit of the Spirit (Love) is not what is being referred to by Paul, as Paul shows later that obedience in righteous leads unto salvation. Paul would be conflicted himself if he was speaking of all works, and even showed how we are all called to serve in different ways.
Serving out of love for the Lord is the works we are all called to walk in, and in that servitude to the Lord with the Holy Spirits guidance is what James is speaking of. As James says if these works (fruits) of the Spirit are not evident in a believers life then they have a dead faith that is not leading to salvation as this shows that one is not born again with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

Those works come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within a person, and Paul says clearly in Galatians 5 that he gives two lists. In the first list he shows the works of the flesh, and any who keep doing those things will not inherit the kingdom of heaven a.k.a. no salvation. Then in the 2nd list he gives the fruits/works of the Spirit that will be in and evident of a true born again believers life.

 

[dcontroversal]

Apostle Paul is talking about works of the law in that passage you keep referring to, as nobody is justified by the law.
The works of righteousness done out of the fruit of the Spirit (Love) is not what is being referred to by Paul, as Paul shows later that obedience in righteous leads unto salvation. Paul would be conflicted himself if he was speaking of all works, and even showed how we are all called to serve in different ways.
Serving out of love for the Lord is the works we are all called to walk in, and in that servitude to the Lord with the Holy Spirits guidance is what James is speaking of. As James says if these works (fruits) of the Spirit are not evident in a believers life then they have a dead faith that is not leading to salvation as this shows that one is not born again with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

Those works come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within a person, and Paul says clearly in Galatians 5 that he gives two lists. In the first list he shows the works of the flesh, and any who keep doing those things will not inherit the kingdom of heaven a.k.a. no salvation. Then in the 2nd list he gives the fruits/works of the Spirit that will be in and evident of a true born again believers life.

Another fatal error on your part.....

A work is a work is a work......NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE

In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH, and that not of YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<---NO WORKS mentioned

Paul-->WE CONCLUDE that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS of the LAW<--works

HE that BELIEVETH is NOT CONDEMNED

Keep ignoring the truth and trusting into your works Kenneth and you will find out soon enough!

 

[Hoffco]

The works of the law can not save "by themselves alone" As baptism, alone ,with out faith and good works will not save. But, Bap. with a good conscience saves. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

dcontroversal, You are destroying the Word of God with your deletions from the word. "faith without works is dead" Love Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

Another fatal error on your part.....

A work is a work is a work......NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE

In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH, and that not of YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<---NO WORKS mentioned

Paul-->WE CONCLUDE that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS of the LAW<--works

HE that BELIEVETH is NOT CONDEMNED

Keep ignoring the truth and trusting into your works Kenneth and you will find out soon enough!

No I do not keep ignoring the truth as you keep saying by twisting the scriptures to make them say what you want....
Your first scripture you gave from Titus is good, but keep reading as Paul says in that same scripture;

Titus 3:5
He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy -- through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Washing of regeneration as in baptism and then receiving of the Holy Spirit, and then in verse 7 it says that we are justified by His grace and made heirs in hope of receiving eternal life. Then in verse 8 Paul says those who believe are to maintain doing good works. Then in verse 14 he again says to maintain good works or you would be unfruitful.


Your second scripture of Ephesians 2:9 is about those who try to use works to earn salvation, which works do not earn but go hand and hand with salvation.

Your third scripture from 1 Corinthians is not a scripture to even use for a no works or works debate, as the subject in that chapter is about those who uses mans knowledge/wisdom over God's knowledge/wisdom given through the Holy Spirit to the believer. Hince one putting faith in man's teachings over the Holy Spirit who leads and teaches us through all things. 1 Corinthians 2:10 shows this as it says God's knowledge comes through the Holy Spirit, and not through man or mans teaching systems.


Then your last one says clearly what is being talked about, as in the deeds of the law.
Repentance, confession, baptism, forgiveness, love, mercy, and so on is not works of the law, and each one of these is said within the bible more then once that without them the person is not saved nor receives salvation.
One that truly believes in the Lord is not condemned because they will come to Him fully, hear what He says, and then go out and do it with the Holy Spirit guiding them.

 

[dcontroversal]

dcontroversal, You are destroying the Word of God with your deletions from the word. "faith without works is dead" Love Hoffco

I think you should study more......

Paul said a man is justified by faith without the works of the law<---Before God
James said a man's faith is justified before MEN by works

There is no contradiction and if you want to trust into works for salvation then have a ball...you can join the group that comes before Jesus bragging and boasting of all the wonderful works you have done in the name of Jesus as your right and ticket to enter the Kingdom only to be rejected because you, like Kenneth trusted into your works over the faith of Christ......

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his MERCY has he saved US!

 

[dcontroversal]

No I do not keep ignoring the truth as you keep saying by twisting the scriptures to make them say what you want....
Your first scripture you gave from Titus is good, but keep reading as Paul says in that same scripture;

Titus 3:5
He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy -- through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Washing of regeneration as in baptism and then receiving of the Holy Spirit, and then in verse 7 it says that we are justified by His grace and made heirs in hope of receiving eternal life. Then in verse 8 Paul says those who believe are to maintain doing good works. Then in verse 14 he again says to maintain good works or you would be unfruitful.


Your second scripture of Ephesians 2:9 is about those who try to use works to earn salvation, which works do not earn but go hand and hand with salvation.

Your third scripture from 1 Corinthians is not a scripture to even use for a no works or works debate, as the subject in that chapter is about those who uses mans knowledge/wisdom over God's knowledge/wisdom given through the Holy Spirit to the believer. Hince one putting faith in man's teachings over the Holy Spirit who leads and teaches us through all things. 1 Corinthians 2:10 shows this as it says God's knowledge comes through the Holy Spirit, and not through man or mans teaching systems.


Then your last one says clearly what is being talked about, as in the deeds of the law.
Repentance, confession, baptism, forgiveness, love, mercy, and so on is not works of the law, and each one of these is said within the bible more then once that without them the person is not saved nor receives salvation.
One that truly believes in the Lord is not condemned because they will come to Him fully, hear what He says, and then go out and do it with the Holy Spirit guiding them.

Titus 3:5 says nothing about BAPTISM.....so....now your gospel is a watered down, trust yourself gospel...good for you...I will stick with the simplicity that is found in Christ and a genuine faith into his completed work for my salvation...

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE<----NO WORKS or WATER here.....KEEP adding to the word KENNETH...like I said you will find out soon enough!

 

[3Scoreand10]

I think you should study more......

Paul said a man is justified by faith without the works of the law<---Before God
James said a man's faith is justified before MEN by works

There is no contradiction and if you want to trust into works for salvation then have a ball...you can join the group that comes before Jesus bragging and boasting of all the wonderful works you have done in the name of Jesus as your right and ticket to enter the Kingdom only to be rejected because you, like Kenneth trusted into your works over the faith of Christ......

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his MERCY has he saved US!

I am amazed that some people really beleive that they can or must help the God that created everything save their soul.
While they work, I by faith beleive and trust.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I think you should study more......

Paul said a man is justified by faith without the works of the law<---Before God
James said a man's faith is justified before MEN by works

There is no contradiction and if you want to trust into works for salvation then have a ball...you can join the group that comes before Jesus bragging and boasting of all the wonderful works you have done in the name of Jesus as your right and ticket to enter the Kingdom only to be rejected because you, like Kenneth trusted into your works over the faith of Christ......

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his MERCY has he saved US!

The problem you have with using that from the Lord that I put in bold and underlined is that it wasn't the boasting about their works that kept them out of heaven. It is the fact that even though they professed belief in the Lord and did things in His name they still continued to live a lawless/sinful/unclean lifestyle. That is what kept them out of heaven was the sinful lifestyle they lived making all their good deeds useless and as filthy rags.
They believed by doing good here or there in His name gave them the right to continue to live however they wanted to, and did not give up there sinful ways of the flesh.

Even Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8 how being in Christ and walking in the Spirit (fruits/works) thereof is those who abide in Christ and therefor is no condemnation for continuing to do so. As he showed that he could not continue to live and walk as he showed in Romans 7 for that way he said leads to death and not eternal life.

 

[gotime]

The Law only points out a guilty persons guilt.

That same law does not condemn the innocent.

Are we not cleansed of our sin by faith in Christ?
Are we not renewed in His Spirit?

Is not the law fulfilled in us?

Is the law against the fruit of the Spirit?

So take a look at that law and if it condemns you then you are not of the Spirit but still carnal. you must be born again.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am amazed that some people really beleive that they can or must help the God that created everything save their soul.
While they work, I by faith beleive and trust.

The problem is that people make it a one way system when it comes to faith, but not even the Lord nor Paul believed this way.
The Lord told some others that came to him for healing that their faith as made them well, and Paul told Titus to persist in the teachings of the Lord and not waiver for by doing so he will save both himself and those who listen to him.