The Law as a School MASTER
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Unless you mean fruit. We will by means of the Spirit produce fruit and act in such away, but most put their faith in how they act and not what God did.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
The fruit of the Spirit is to be evident in all true believers life.
As for works that depends on what the Lord has called each person to do, as we are all called to serve in different ways and in different measures. Nobody is called to just sit on their butts and do nothing. There are things that people can and will do naturally as a believer with Christ working through them, and that is being a listening hear to one in need, give a homeless person a place to stay, blanket, and feed them. One will develop a forgiving heart, merciful attitude toward others, and so on as the Holy Spirit was sent to guide, help, and strengthen us were we are weak.
Some take longer then others in this change from walking in the flesh to walking spiritually, and putting off their carnal mindset. Paul shows us his change from Romans 7 to Romans 8, as when he first converted he was still carnal minded as his flesh warred with the Spirit. But in Romans 8 he shows that he no longer walks carnally minded, and gives a warning that it leads to death and eternal life.
Did you read where Paul said that it is not my works. By faith He went to Rome by the leading of the Holy Spirit. He was shipwrecked and stoned and left for dead. This same man said if any man boast let him boast in Christ. Yes we are to have faith and do the works that He gives us. But we shall not boast in those works as the are the Spirit working in us and not our own. Paul would thank God for the work done through him by the Holy Spirit. But yet said I can not boast and if any man should boast let Him boast in Christ.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
It is not boasting in them by encouraging people to do good works, as the bible tells us to do exactly that.
Boasting means you speak highly on your own works as though you deserve something for it, and a true believer does not do works to earn anything. They do the works out of love for the Lord, and the listening of the direction of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Christ does the work in and through us, but what some do not understand is that God does not take our freewill away to where one can still choose not to obey the Holy Spirit.
We are not forced to love Him, He gives us the free right to choose who we will serve.
He says I give you life and death choose today which one you will serve, either sins/flesh/unrighteous unto death or Him through righteousness unto eternal life.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Hi, Dcon.
Here is what the Apostle Paul had to say about this "schoolmaster":
Galatians chapter 3
23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians chapter 4
[1] Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
[2] But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
[3] Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[7] Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
[8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
[10] Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
In what we just read, Paul was alluding to the Greco-Roman custom of "adoption" in order to explain the purpose of "the law" in the life of a Christian. "Adoption" in Greco-Roman times didn't mean the same exact thing that it means to us today in our own time and culture. Back then, as Paul described in Galatians 4:1-2, if a man had a son, even though said son was to one day be his heir, he was placed "under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father". IOW, said son was under "schoolmasters" who were to train him and prepare him for life as an adult until the time came that he received the "adoption" or "the placement of an adult son" from his father which is what the underlying Greek word translated here and elsewhere in the New Testament as "adoption" actually means:
Adoption - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Yes, a Greek or Roman youth wore a certain type of toga which signified that he hadn't yet reached his "adoption" or "placement as an adult son" and then at a certain age he donned a different toga, the "toga virilis", which signified that he was now considered to be an "adult son":
Toga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again:
Toga virilis - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Anyhow, with this history before us, I'd like for you and others here to seriously consider the question that I'm about to ask...
When a child who had previously been under "schoolmasters" reached the status of an "adult son", do you suppose that he was expected to forsake everything that his "schoolmasters" had taught him or do you suppose that he was expected to actually draw upon the knowledge of the same in order to aid him in his new walk as an "adult son"?
Look, like it or not, when the Apostle Paul told the Galatians that they were no longer under a schoolmaster, BY NO MEANS was he telling them to forsake all of the teachings of the same. In fact, he addressed the parts of the "schoolmaster" which were a problem when he mentioned how that they were still "observing days, and months, and times, and years" (Galatians 4:10), BUT HE DIDN'T TELL THEM THAT THEY WERE NO LONGER UNDER CERTAIN DICTATES OR COMMANDMENTS OF THE LAW.
Look, think with me for a minute before you respond hastily...
Where, for example, did this same exact Apostle Paul draw from to teach CHRISTIANS about marriage?
Didn't he draw from THE LAW OF MOSES?
Of course, he did:
Ephesians chapter 5
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
While teaching on the topic of marriage and how it represents Christ's union with the church, the Apostle Paul took his CHRISTIAN readers all the way back to the book of Genesis or to what MOSES had written (Genesis 2:24), didn't he? Again, of course, he did.
How do we know the proper order of authority within a marriage?
Well, we know the same because of what THE LAW teaches us, even as the Apostle Paul noted elsewhere:
I Corinthians chapter 14
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Here is where "the law" says the same:
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
How do we know the proper relationship between parents and their children in a family?
Well, again, we know the same because of what THE LAW teaches us:
Ephesians chapter 6
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise):
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
What was this same exact Apostle Paul doing citing one of the Ten Commandments to CHRISTIANS if we're no longer under the schoolmaster in the manner in which you and several others here regularly seek to convince us of?
I could go on and on and on and on.
All throughout THE NEW TESTAMENT, "THE LAW" is cited as the foundation for NEW TESTAMENT DOCTRINE.
You'd be well-advised to recognize the same as would several others here.
Anyhow, THIS is what "the Bible clearly teaches about the law"...
I agree that the works of the law cannot save and never saved anyone who has done the works of the law alone without faith. Nevertheless, isn't the law a substantial part of the name of God and His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus the true Christ? The Bible says that faith establishes the law. By rejecting any part of His Word we also reject that equal part of His divine and wonderful name. Further, if the law was our schoolmaster that led us to Christ, what do we use to lead others to Christ as we have been led in times past? If we don't know it, then we are forced to use another avenue to lead others to Christ. Remember Paul was writing to the Gentiles in Galatia.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold , but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1)
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)
B
BradC
Guest
I would like to throw this out for consideration and it is not meant in any way to be divisive. The law of righteousness being a school master was given for a time and primarily to the Jews to point out sin and make it exceedingly sinful so that man would seek God's righteousness through the one who was to come. When Christ came, he brought grace and truth and did away with the law as a school master and as a way of righteousness. The ability of the law as a way of righteousness along with the ability to bring anyone to Christ was exceeded in glory by the coming of Christ, through the glorious gospel of his death, burial and resurrection and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
It is the gospel of the cross and what was done to sin and for man that brings us to Christ through the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man. The message we preach to bring sinful man to salvation is not contained in the law, it is contained in the gospel, the power of God unto salvation. To preach the law and to keep the law that was a school master is not the way or the message of the NT believer who is in Christ. The NT believer preaches Jesus Christ and him crucified and when we lift him up on the cross, that is what will draw all men unto Christ.
Especially during this time of the Gentiles, the gospel is where it is at, both for the Jew and the Gentile and no man can come to the Father through the law, only through the Son and the finished work of the cross. After we believe upon the Son and are given salvation by grace through faith we are to walk according to Col 2:6-9...
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord (by grace through faith), so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
if the law is a school teacher, what kind of school teacher is it.ie history teacher, action teacher. etc etc.
when was a gentile given this law ie law of moses, 10 commands , etc etc.(acts 15). that it should be used as a guide line to an action, when jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law. so to get the blessing like abraham they got this by believing in jesus, had conquered death, now jesus is back in heaven, now the holy spirit is being given to gentiles because they believed jesus completed everything that god sent him to do.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith Galatians 3
what has law got to do with a promise, that god has fore filled through jesus.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.Galatians 3
when was a gentile given this law ie law of moses, 10 commands , etc etc.(acts 15). that it should be used as a guide line to an action, when jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law. so to get the blessing like abraham they got this by believing in jesus, had conquered death, now jesus is back in heaven, now the holy spirit is being given to gentiles because they believed jesus completed everything that god sent him to do.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith Galatians 3
what has law got to do with a promise, that god has fore filled through jesus.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.Galatians 3
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Although "the law" was originally given to the Israelites, God fully expected them to share the same with the whole world. In fact, Paul said the following about "the law" in his epistle to the Romans:
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:19)
"The law" was given that "EVERY MOUTH may be stopped AND ALL THE WORLD may become guilty before God" and that most certainly includes the Gentiles. In fact, John the Baptist was beheaded for telling a GENTILE, Herod an Edomite, that it was "not lawful" for him to take his brother's wife:
Mark chapter 6
[17] For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
[18] For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
[19] Therefore Herodias had a quarrel against him, and would have killed him; but she could not:
[20] For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
As far as Acts chapter 15 is concerned, perhaps you should reread it:
Acts chapter 15
[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The Apostles' "sentence" in relation to the Gentile believers was predicated upon their understanding that the Gentiles were hearing Moses preached and read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. Again, much of the moral dictates of "the law" have carried over into the New Testament and they are the very foundation for New Testament doctrine...even as I already briefly began to document in my previous post here.
Anyhow, before somebody calls me a "legalist" (as if I really care), I'm fully aware of the fact that many parts of "the law" have either been fulfilled or annulled, but, again, many of the moral dictates of "the law" are still supposed to be very much a part of a CHRISTIAN'S life...whether they be Jew or Gentile.
speculation leds you no ware. if you cant get the bible in context.
the law was given to a jewish people. so if you want to look at sin ,through the eyes of jewish teaching, then ask the pharisee, why they killed jesus.
was jesus sent to a jewish people under law. so when is he talking to gentile in the gospels.
(history teacher or action teacher, or an account of what he did in his ministy(jesus)
the new covenant was put in place for christian believers that would mean believing in jesus christ.
when could a gentile talk to a non christian jew. out side of christian jews.. o wait ,they could not do this after what peter said in acts 10."(You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation,)
sorry, if you cant see the difference between no law,(saved by grace a gift) and them under the law. and why paul was getting a hard time from other jewish people saying the have a licence to sin.
if you want to keep the 10 commands in you back pocket, even he states that jewish are saved by grace a gift.(paul in acts 15)
in acts 15 they are not under this law. because i was there at the meeting. and they were never give any part of the law of moses. to gal
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith Galatians 3
what has law got to do with a promise, that god has fore filled through jesus.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.Galatians 3
is paul wasting his time here
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Those who post the most about grace, post about grace only never having been to the school of that shoolmaster.
My knowledge of geology is no longer perfect, but I do remember the geologic column, orogenic even process, sstratigraphy in general, and much more.
Were I in the vicinity, there is not harm in my visiting my former geology professor, and were we to get into a discussion in depth, I would be open to being updated on anything I may have forgotten, for his teaching was great.
The same holds true with the law as a shoolmaster. No one who does not know the law and why it is not sufficient by itself, cannot speak on the subject. These same people who have never been students of the former schoolmaster would be well served in learning the wisdom of the law as given by Jesus Christ, then learn from Him in His tachings on the subject when He was physically with us.
No man will ever arrive to God's Kingdom by works of the law; this is only achieved by the Blood of the Paschel Lamb of God and the grace and mercy reeceived with Its Salvation.
I will never forget my schoolmaster, for I have been to school, and I will never be shamed, intimidated, or too timid to refer to him.
The wisdom in the law is best learned and utilized in this age in learning directly from the Author of all of the Word, Jesus Christ.
Also, it would behoove all who think they are on fire in telling others the law is obsolet, to learn by the Example of Jesus Christ just how He teaches the laws should be followed. I see in the forum that most grace only folks teach the laws are obsolet, not understanding that the law is complete in Jesus Christ and only the curse of teh law is nailed to the cross with Him.
The same folks do not know the difference between geological restrictions of many laws, the fact that the Temple laws cannot be observed for we are living stones of the Temple with Christ the Head and the Cornerstone, and they do not understand that He made all foods clean when received with thanks giving. No sacrificial laws of the altar and Temple are extant because Jesus Christ is the Pasover Lamb of God. No law, according to Chris's teachings, that omit mercy and grace is valid, for He desires mercy and not sacrifice, adn He came to forgive, not to condemn.
Thil leaves only the commandments and laws that guide us in moral and good behavior. None ow these are obsolet, and none of these should be broken. The new man we have become knows this, and does not knowingly break any of thes laws, but should he, he has an advocate, a mediator, between himself and God, Jesus Christ. No man would need that Mediator if he were perfect, for he need Christ to mediate for him when he sins, and what is sin? Breaking the law.
Love Jesus Christ in return, believe HIm, and obey Him. Is this wrong to ask of the family in Messiah? Ask yourself.
God bless all the family in Jeuss Christ, all the children of obedience, amen.
My knowledge of geology is no longer perfect, but I do remember the geologic column, orogenic even process, sstratigraphy in general, and much more.
Were I in the vicinity, there is not harm in my visiting my former geology professor, and were we to get into a discussion in depth, I would be open to being updated on anything I may have forgotten, for his teaching was great.
The same holds true with the law as a shoolmaster. No one who does not know the law and why it is not sufficient by itself, cannot speak on the subject. These same people who have never been students of the former schoolmaster would be well served in learning the wisdom of the law as given by Jesus Christ, then learn from Him in His tachings on the subject when He was physically with us.
No man will ever arrive to God's Kingdom by works of the law; this is only achieved by the Blood of the Paschel Lamb of God and the grace and mercy reeceived with Its Salvation.
I will never forget my schoolmaster, for I have been to school, and I will never be shamed, intimidated, or too timid to refer to him.
The wisdom in the law is best learned and utilized in this age in learning directly from the Author of all of the Word, Jesus Christ.
Also, it would behoove all who think they are on fire in telling others the law is obsolet, to learn by the Example of Jesus Christ just how He teaches the laws should be followed. I see in the forum that most grace only folks teach the laws are obsolet, not understanding that the law is complete in Jesus Christ and only the curse of teh law is nailed to the cross with Him.
The same folks do not know the difference between geological restrictions of many laws, the fact that the Temple laws cannot be observed for we are living stones of the Temple with Christ the Head and the Cornerstone, and they do not understand that He made all foods clean when received with thanks giving. No sacrificial laws of the altar and Temple are extant because Jesus Christ is the Pasover Lamb of God. No law, according to Chris's teachings, that omit mercy and grace is valid, for He desires mercy and not sacrifice, adn He came to forgive, not to condemn.
Thil leaves only the commandments and laws that guide us in moral and good behavior. None ow these are obsolet, and none of these should be broken. The new man we have become knows this, and does not knowingly break any of thes laws, but should he, he has an advocate, a mediator, between himself and God, Jesus Christ. No man would need that Mediator if he were perfect, for he need Christ to mediate for him when he sins, and what is sin? Breaking the law.
Love Jesus Christ in return, believe HIm, and obey Him. Is this wrong to ask of the family in Messiah? Ask yourself.
God bless all the family in Jeuss Christ, all the children of obedience, amen.
The reference to geological laws should read geographical laws.........excuse that please.
A close look at Romans chaps 1&2 show the law being used in two ways. One, to the Jewish nation via the 10 commandments. Two, through the conscience of man. BOTH were a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ...i.e. to show us our guilt before God's standard of perfection and our need for Christ...not as another Moses but as our Saviour from our sin.
B
BradC
Guest
You are terribly wrong about the law not vanishing by a glory that excels it. That glory has caused the law to vanish away and no one is changed into the image of Christ through the law. Our righteousness is in Christ and not in keeping with law. We walk in the Spirit and not the law. The doctrine we have been given is in Christ through the Spirit. The law tells us not to covet but has no power to enable us not to. We must receive grace through the Spirit to have the power not to covet in the details of life. The law can only dictate what we are to do or not to do but can never provide a single thing to give us the power to it. If you are keeping the Sabbath are you also preaching the gospel to every creature?
I agree that works play no part in obtaining Salvation.
The parable of the tares and "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord" are still included in Scripture as is "by their fruits ye shall know them"
Eph 2:10 and James Chapter 1 must be included in scripture for a reason!
The ninefold fruit of the Spirit must be present and increasing in the lives of all who are saved; and works of habitual obedience should be increasingly evident as well.
unless our lives demonstrate our love for God and our concern for the needs and concerns of fellow believers something is very wrong.
We are not called to determine anyone's eternal destination; but we should try to lead to Christ anyone in whom these things are absent.
works of faith and obedience, however, do not include placing ourselves under the Law or under a rule book.
what did the ekklesia do in the new testament? (you haven't yet seen it here on this site)
read it praying/ seeking yahweh abba elohim, and enjoy the truth, and repent and cry aloud to God because almost no ekklesia are left today --- only a few, the remnant.
I think something we may miss is that we honestly have no way to judge whether or not someone else is exuding any certain measure of any of the gifts.... or is not... in comparison to who they were before Christ. Someone who we deem not to be loving because they don't do this, or don't do that, just might have busted us in the mouth a few months earlier. Is it possible we lay upon people, our own ideas of how "redeemed" people have to act?
A wise man once said to me that we have no idea when we judge someone (and that is REALLY what we are doing) for our observation of where they are at the time, just how far they had to come, or just how long it took, or what they went through, for them to be standing where they are now.
A wise man once said to me that we have no idea when we judge someone (and that is REALLY what we are doing) for our observation of where they are at the time, just how far they had to come, or just how long it took, or what they went through, for them to be standing where they are now.
a little child can observe the difference, and does, when someone is immersed in yahshua.
even unbelievers can see the difference immediately, yahweh willing of course, as has been seen in
the few places on earth where persons have been immersed in yahshua.
it is never appropriate for the ekklesia to judge someone or anything in their own judgment. they do or are supposed
to
pay attention to abba yahweh elohim by revelation in christ jesus and judge as he judges, literally by the invisible
that no one can 'see' except the father grants it from heaven. --- this is the mystery you don't know - yahweh abiding with men.
as yahshua repeatedly says in scripture, if you love truth more than even your own life, the heavenly creator father of all life will himself teach you the truth about all things, as he pleases. he doesn't leave it
to the ekklesia, his born ones, to judge apart from him, but tells us his righteous appraisal as he delights in us
trusting and relying on him like little children. this is not understood even a little bit nor grasped by the worldly nor the carnal. (i might be speaking to only 3 readers, or maybe 7000, or 144000; yahweh knows).
even unbelievers can see the difference immediately, yahweh willing of course, as has been seen in
the few places on earth where persons have been immersed in yahshua.
it is never appropriate for the ekklesia to judge someone or anything in their own judgment. they do or are supposed
to
pay attention to abba yahweh elohim by revelation in christ jesus and judge as he judges, literally by the invisible
that no one can 'see' except the father grants it from heaven. --- this is the mystery you don't know - yahweh abiding with men.
as yahshua repeatedly says in scripture, if you love truth more than even your own life, the heavenly creator father of all life will himself teach you the truth about all things, as he pleases. he doesn't leave it
to the ekklesia, his born ones, to judge apart from him, but tells us his righteous appraisal as he delights in us
trusting and relying on him like little children. this is not understood even a little bit nor grasped by the worldly nor the carnal. (i might be speaking to only 3 readers, or maybe 7000, or 144000; yahweh knows).
W