The Law as a School MASTER

[eternally-gratefull]

We don't compare ourselves to others, but we do and are called to look upon others to see if they are walking properly in the faith or not. And if they are not we are charged to call them out and help them to change from walking the impure lifestyle. If they refuse after one on one, 2-3 on one, bringing them in front of the whole congregation, then Paul goes further within the meat of the word showing that if those steps fail then they are to be cast out of the church.

true but non of this has a thing to do with salvation. If you do this to a person not born again, all you have done is judged him. and most likely turned him from God because he can not comprehend these things, he is not born of God.

Apostle Paul constantly gives warnings of sin to believers because they do have impact on a believers life, because one can state belief in the Lord but if they live in a disobedient lifestyle of a sin nature then the Lord says clearly the disobedient will be appointed a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers.

the part you do not get is that according to the law. this is every one of us, no one can live up to Gods standard, thus in Gods eyes, we are all disobedient.

what separates the believer from the unbeliever is his fath, and his standing with God based on grace, not how good or how bad he is.

Then you bring up the lose salvation issue which will always be a hot topic, but those who preach and teach some can lose salvation are not teaching falsely as some say. For there is many scriptures that support this from Judas all the way to the epistle of Jude who's whole book is about salvation. Then in Hebrews mentions those who draw back to perdition, meaning they fell back to a sinful lifestyle leading to the second death.

yet again you prove your legalism. how can one lose salvation, if they can never live up to Gods standard to begin with? this is the part you can not comprehend.

 

[dcontroversal]

You can repeat that all you want Dcon, and just because you do does not mean I have an inability to learn as I know what the definition of pisteuo says. You always want to post stuff from man made sources yet quickly reject what others have shown you when it comes to clear cut scriptures and the definitions themselves.
Just because you post the above does not change the definition of pisteuo;


The full definition of pisteuo from the Strong's Concordance and the Thayer's Greek Lexicon

pisteuó​

Definition:I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something:

Kenneth.....you are posting MAN MADE STUFF and do you think that Pistueo is only translated that way?

Open your eyes to the truth.....the verb tenses in John 3:16 shows a PRESENT CONTINUING RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION..........SHOULD NOT BE PERISHING BUT IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE....PRESENT CONTINUING RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION!.........

And on top of that YOU do NOT ABSOLUTELY TRUST in JESUS or in GOD as able to AID either in OBTAINING and or in DOING SOMETHING as my BIBLE states clearly he SAVES TOP THE UTTERMOST and LOOSES NOTHING THAT the FATHER HAS GIVEN UNTO HIM.....

YOU on the other hand believe you have to HELP JESUS save you and keep you saved by your own EFFORT, WORKS and or MERITS.....

At the end of the day you are regurgitating what you learned from the false teachers you sat under and or by willful rejection of the truth.....A person who trusts into JESUS currently has, will continue to have eternal life that cannot be lost, will not be lost as HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM......

You teaching you can lose it contradicts the scriptures period and sets forth a willful rejection of GREEK verb tenses and the ability of Christ to save to the uttermost!

Open your eyes before you end up roasting!

 

[dcontroversal]

true but non of this has a thing to do with salvation. If you do this to a person not born again, all you have done is judged him. and most likely turned him from God because he can not comprehend these things, he is not born of God.


the part you do not get is that according to the law. this is every one of us, no one can live up to Gods standard, thus in Gods eyes, we are all disobedient.

what separates the believer from the unbeliever is his fath, and his standing with God based on grace, not how good or how bad he is.



yet again you prove your legalism. how can one lose salvation, if they can never live up to Gods standard to begin with? this is the part you can not comprehend.

Amen and I will add....amongst all of the other things he cannot understand......like verb tenses which show a present continuing result from a past completed action of the which he still denies even though I have shown the truth of it above and EVERY GREEK SCHOLAR KNOWS and will stand ON.............!

 

[kennethcadwell]

CC is not a church, you are not the Pastor of everybody in here and you have to have the truth before you can rightfully judge anything...of the which you do not!

You cannot even admit truth when it is right in front of your face......like arguing about verb tenses above and saying that verb tenses do not show a present continuing result from a past completed action.....I prove you wrong and you deny, argue and continue to stand on heresy and a rejection of the truth!

Calling the kettle black as I only do not have the truth based on how you feel, not based truly on His word and the guidance that I have received through the Holy Spirit to answer my questions I ask in prayer with His word.
You keep stating stuff like this many of times yet you yourself have been shown and proven wrong many of times, and I have yet to see you once admit your error, but if you ever actually have fully read all that I have said you will see my stance on some subjects have changed but in others I stand firm.

The reason I stand firm is because there are many scriptures that support what I have said.
I understand a person can misuse 1 scripture or even 5-10 scripture can be used wrong, but when there is 25 or more that say the same thing then there is no misuse especially when some of them say straight out what they are saying. If a sentence says the color of the pen is blue, then the color of the pen is blue. You can not say it is red unless you twist it, so when Peter says the end of our faith is salvation, then the end of our faith is salvation. You can not twist it to say it comes at the beginning when clear cut scripture says it is the end result of us keeping the faith as both Peter and Paul say.

I am trying to help as we are called to do, and instead of keeping it simple you try and make things harder to understand by interjecting all these extra things not needed. We don't need no more then the word in the scripture, its definition, and how it is applied. Which the Strong's and Greek lexicon both give both, so that is all we need. If the definition clearly says it is a continuation of belief leading to obtaining salvation then that is all we need.

The bible says the simplicity is in Christ, because the Holy Spirit makes gives us all knowledge we need. We do not need to seek out man's made educational system to know His truth. He is our one and only Spiritual Teacher that guides and leads us in all His knowledge. Apostle Paul even warns about putting man's knowledge before the Holy Spirit knowledge.

 

[dcontroversal]

Calling the kettle black as I only do not have the truth based on how you feel, not based truly on His word and the guidance that I have received through the Holy Spirit to answer my questions I ask in prayer with His word.
You keep stating stuff like this many of times yet you yourself have been shown and proven wrong many of times, and I have yet to see you once admit your error, but if you ever actually have fully read all that I have said you will see my stance on some subjects have changed but in others I stand firm.

The reason I stand firm is because there are many scriptures that support what I have said.
I understand a person can misuse 1 scripture or even 5-10 scripture can be used wrong, but when there is 25 or more that say the same thing then there is no misuse especially when some of them say straight out what they are saying. If a sentence says the color of the pen is blue, then the color of the pen is blue. You can not say it is red unless you twist it, so when Peter says the end of our faith is salvation, then the end of our faith is salvation. You can not twist it to say it comes at the beginning when clear cut scripture says it is the end result of us keeping the faith as both Peter and Paul say.

I am trying to help as we are called to do, and instead of keeping it simple you try and make things harder to understand by interjecting all these extra things not needed. We don't need no more then the word in the scripture, its definition, and how it is applied. Which the Strong's and Greek lexicon both give both, so that is all we need. If the definition clearly says it is a continuation of belief leading to obtaining salvation then that is all we need.

The bible says the simplicity is in Christ, because the Holy Spirit makes gives us all knowledge we need. We do not need to seek out man's made educational system to know His truth. He is our one and only Spiritual Teacher that guides and leads us in all His knowledge. Apostle Paul even warns about putting man's knowledge before the Holy Spirit knowledge.

You haven't proven anyone wrong dude.....you still stand in heresy...it is obvious and you keep boasting and bragging about the Holy Spirit has guided you into these falsehoods that you believe which didn't happen....the Spirit leads and guides into truth, not man made lies....

The bible teaches the following....and when you start confessing these things then you can boast about where you have been led...

1. Salvation based upon grace and faith which is a present reality with continuing results
2. It is not based upon our own works, merits or abilities
3. It is a once for all act in the past with present continuing results
4. Christ saves to the uttermost
5. It is the spirit tat has been born again, does not sin and is eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified
6. Not every place the word save or saved is used is referencing soul salvation
7. Salvation, justification and sanctification are all based upon the completed work of Christ
7. FAITH is what saves NOT WORKS which are evidences of salvation
8. Salvation is ETERNAL and eternal and everlasting mean exactly that eternal and everlasting NOT TEMPORARY

Just to name 8..............Open those blind eyes before it is too late Kenneth....!

 

[kennethcadwell]

true but non of this has a thing to do with salvation. If you do this to a person not born again, all you have done is judged him. and most likely turned him from God because he can not comprehend these things, he is not born of God.


the part you do not get is that according to the law. this is every one of us, no one can live up to Gods standard, thus in Gods eyes, we are all disobedient.

what separates the believer from the unbeliever is his fath, and his standing with God based on grace, not how good or how bad he is.



yet again you prove your legalism. how can one lose salvation, if they can never live up to Gods standard to begin with? this is the part you can not comprehend.

You keep bringing up legalism, but I am not speaking of legalism as that refers to those who try to keep and believe we have to keep all 613 Mosaic laws. I do not believe this way !!!

However the bible through the words of the Lord, Paul, James, John, and Peter all give standards and commands that a born again believer does still have to follow. Rather you or others like it or not there is still a way in which one has to walk leading to salvation, and the other way that leads to the second death.
Jesus and Paul both say you can not serve flesh and Him, meaning you can not walk in the flesh and walk in the Spirit both. Walking in the flesh which is a carnal mind leads to the second death of the lake of fire, and walking in the Spirit which produces works done by the fruits of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith in Christ leading unto salvation.

I am not a legalist because I do not defend the 613 Mosaic laws, but I do uphold the moral laws of God that are based within the 10 commandments because even Apostle Paul showed in Romans 13:9-11 that walking in love which is a fruit of the Spirit will uphold all commands/teachings given by the Lord our God.

Then the last point is you say they never lived up to His standard so how can they lose salvation.
Well the answer to your question is that they did as the scripture says they drew back to, meaning they were once under His grace but did like the Galatians and took their focus off the Lord and put it back on the worldly things. The law, sinful lusts, denying the Holy Spirits guidance, and so forth.

I do get and understand nobody be themselves can keep the 613 Mosaic laws, but the good news is we are not by ourselves and we are not held to keep all 613 Mosaic laws.

Acts 15 clearly shows what still applies to us, and Romans 13 shows how the fruit of the Spirit love will uphold all the rest that the Lord Jesus commanded and taught within the gospel books as well as the moral 10 commands of God. Those who continue to deny this keeping with the Holy Spirit's guidance is rejecting scripture.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You haven't proven anyone wrong dude.....you still stand in heresy...it is obvious and you keep boasting and bragging about the Holy Spirit has guided you into these falsehoods that you believe which didn't happen....the Spirit leads and guides into truth, not man made lies....

The bible teaches the following....and when you start confessing these things then you can boast about where you have been led...

1. Salvation based upon grace and faith which is a present reality with continuing results
2. It is not based upon our own works, merits or abilities
3. It is a once for all act in the past with present continuing results
4. Christ saves to the uttermost
5. It is the spirit tat has been born again, does not sin and is eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified
6. Not every place the word save or saved is used is referencing soul salvation
7. Salvation, justification and sanctification are all based upon the completed work of Christ
7. FAITH is what saves NOT WORKS which are evidences of salvation
8. Salvation is ETERNAL and eternal and everlasting mean exactly that eternal and everlasting NOT TEMPORARY

Just to name 8..............Open those blind eyes before it is too late Kenneth....!

I am not in man made lies Dconn as man has not lead me in this thinking.
I have shown you plenty of scriptures that speak of what I said and you completely reject them, or try to say they have been twisted when you can not twist a scripture that says straight out what it is saying. I do not boast about my works, as I ever never came on here and said look at what I can do, or what I have done in order to receive something for it. That is boasting when one does that in that manner, not one who says the Holy Spirit has guided them to these answers. Which completely goes with scripture and what Paul said that the Holy Spirit will give us the knowledge we seek, if we just ask Him in faith.
You as always call others in heresy or being a false teacher just because they do not agree with you, and yes you have been proven wrong on many times on here. Just a week ago we was in another thread where 5 people were calling you out on your wrong usage of scripture and I was one of them. Yet you still keep to your understanding instead of admitting you were wrong, but yet your quick to tell others they are false and will not recognize the truth.
And you are right I will not recognize your version of the truth when the Holy Spirit and God's word disagree with what you have said.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Titus 1:16


They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate




John 3:5


Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.




Luke 13:3


I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.




Romans 10:10


For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.




Psalm 19:12-13 (unknown sins), Psalm 51: 12-14 (restore salvation), Psalm 139:23-24 (leading to salvation),




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.




Romans 2:6-10


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:





Luke 15


The Parable of the Lost Sheep


15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”


3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.






Mark 16:16


He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”




Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 Peter 1:9


Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




James 1:12


Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.




Matthew 24:10-13


And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22


And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”




Hebrews 12:1-3


Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.




Hebrews 10:36


For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.




Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.




Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.




2 Timothy 4:2-8


Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.




1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.




1 Corinthians 9:24-25


Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.




Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.




Mark 13:9-13


“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.






Colossians 1:22-23


In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The actual question was, who can be saved if not for a rich man. Jesus replied, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible

Yes I know that but the context that was being taught by Jesus was to not love things of the world over Him.
Those who love their possessions more then they love Him will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This is one of the main teachings of the Lord which goes with the 1st commandment of having no gods before Him.
If you take and place more emphasis on your possessions then you do Him then those are your true master and not the Lord our God. You have turned your possessions into idols by doing this.

 

[michael56]

Yes I know that but the context that was being taught by Jesus was to not love things of the world over Him.
Those who love their possessions more then they love Him will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This is one of the main teachings of the Lord which goes with the 1st commandment of having no gods before Him.
If you take and place more emphasis on your possessions then you do Him then those are your true master and not the Lord our God. You have turned your possessions into idols by doing this.

Or we could say, though the man had obeyed the literal letter since his youth, he did not want to forsake all for Christ.
You can obey much of literal commandments without in your heart giving to God what He wants.
Possibly Jesus means no man in and of himself can give all to God, only the work of God in them can achieve such a result

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep bringing up legalism, but I am not speaking of legalism as that refers to those who try to keep and believe we have to keep all 613 Mosaic laws. I do not believe this way !!!

That is only one aspect of legalism. Legalism comes in many shapes and sizes. it is the term given to people who think that salvation comes by adherence to a set of moral laws. and failure to meet thse set guidelines will cause a lack of salvation, or loss of salvation.

However the bible through the words of the Lord, Paul, James, John, and Peter all give standards and commands that a born again believer does still have to follow. Rather you or others like it or not there is still a way in which one has to walk leading to salvation, and the other way that leads to the second death.

No, these are not guidelines one HAS to follow. for that would make it legalism, they are guidelines one SHOULD follow, if they want to be blessed and fully participate in the kingdom of God. Grow in the grace and love of Christ, Be a mature christian. or fail to follow very well and be chastened as sons, remain babes in Christ, and not recieve the blessings which comes with being a child of God here on earth.

Jesus and Paul both say you can not serve flesh and Him, meaning you can not walk in the flesh and walk in the Spirit both. Walking in the flesh which is a carnal mind leads to the second death of the lake of fire, and walking in the Spirit which produces works done by the fruits of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith in Christ leading unto salvation.

This is legalism, your basing ones eternal destiny based on a set of rules and regulations. Follow them and your saved, deny them and your damned.

Your right, one can serve the spirit and flesh at the same time, they are apposed to each other, thats how one grows, But learning from his mistakes. God does not kick you out when you fail. He chastenes you and loves you more. that is what makes us want to serve him. Legalism has never made anyone truly want to serve God, they serve god out of duty, not love

I am not a legalist because I do not defend the 613 Mosaic laws, but I do uphold the moral laws of God that are based within the 10 commandments because even Apostle Paul showed in Romans 13:9-11 that walking in love which is a fruit of the Spirit will uphold all commands/teachings given by the Lord our God.

Your a legalist because you demand one hold up a set of standards you yourself can not even follow. You are deceived by thinking you do follow the, there is only one standard, and that is the law. Those are gods words, not mine.

Then the last point is you say they never lived up to His standard so how can they lose salvation.
Well the answer to your question is that they did as the scripture says they drew back to, meaning they were once under His grace but did like the Galatians and took their focus off the Lord and put it back on the worldly things. The law, sinful lusts, denying the Holy Spirits guidance, and so forth.

The galations fell back because they returned to legalism, not because of sin. Do you even read the bible? And they were never saved, no person who truly has true faith in God would ever fall back to legalism as a means to procuring eternal life. those who do do it because that is what their true faith was to begin with. Not because of sin, but because of only belief in Christ, but no faith in the true gospel.

I do get and understand nobody be themselves can keep the 613 Mosaic laws, but the good news is we are not by ourselves and we are not held to keep all 613 Mosaic laws.

Acts 15 clearly shows what still applies to us, and Romans 13 shows how the fruit of the Spirit love will uphold all the rest that the Lord Jesus commanded and taught within the gospel books as well as the moral 10 commands of God. Those who continue to deny this keeping with the Holy Spirit's guidance is rejecting scripture.

Why do you keep mentioning 613 laws? the commands given to moses and required to be blessed did not even include all 613.. Most of them were added later.

 

[dcontroversal]

1 Peter 1:9


Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




James 1:12


Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.




Matthew 24:10-13


And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22


And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”




Hebrews 12:1-3


Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.




Hebrews 10:36


For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.




Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.




Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.




2 Timothy 4:2-8


Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.




1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.




1 Corinthians 9:24-25

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.


Romans 11:19-22

Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Mark 13:9-13

“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Colossians 1:22-23


In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Again you fail to understand that every place the word save or saved is used does not always apply unto soul salvation......you will find this out one day...albeit too late....and no matter how you slice and dice you teach a works based salvation of the which the bible does not teach.......

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE......NO WORKS or WATER here...........


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He gave his unique Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, or WATER required]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

(as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

 

[dcontroversal]

That's ok Dcontoversal no harm done.

As to your question,

In Christ I have found a power to not give into temptation:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.

In Christ I have found a change in my very thoughts:

2Co 10:4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
2Co 10:5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;

I have found transformation in Him and it all happened when I stopped trying to be good enough and accepted that the only way to be good is to let He who is Good live in you:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: ...

I find that when I look to Him and trust his command the Impossible becomes real:

Mat 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.




I am saying that what is impossible for man is possible with God and I know it to be true by faith in His word and by the testimony He has given me.

Everything changes, my love for sin became love for God and hatred for sin.

My love for others grew stronger and still is.

I believe and have experienced such power in Christ, see its impossible to say I don't sin. I am dead I don't sin or do good. I do nothing. Christ lives in me and he does the works.

Me I am a sinner saved by Grace, So how is it that a sinner does not sin?

Because the sinner is dead and Christ lives in us. I know without Christ my old man comes alive and I sin. For that is all my flesh is good for. But I no longer give into the flesh but through faith in Christ the flesh is dead and by His Spirit the life I live I live by faith in the son of God who gave Himself for me.

something happens to a man/woman when they by faith accept that in Christ the old nature dies and in Him the Spirit gives life. I can not explain how God does it, but I can testify He does it just as He promised.

There is a rest I can not explain in Christ. His burden is light truly. and the works of the flesh are no more. but it is a daily surrender.

People have a false conception of victory over sin, they think if you can have complete victory then Christ is not needed anymore. this is not true.

The only way to have complete victory is to learn to surrender every moment for the rest of your life. Self only stays dead while at the cross and life only comes through Jesus.

Do I sin? I can say this, I am not aware of any sin I am committing and my conscience is clear before God in Christ. though this does not justify me it is Christ who justifies.

So you took the long way around to say that you do not sin right?

How do you jive this with John saying....If we say that we have NO SIN we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[michael56]

I do not believe a born again Christian, with the law written on their mind and placed on their heart would not be aware if they sinned, neither could they truthfully say they never sin.

 

[Jeff_56]

there is ongoing a lot of harm done. not necessarily intentially, but definitely a lot of harm done.

if it's not obvious, there's only one right-ruling. all the others are wrong.. simple.

all the ones wrong, and all the ones that go wrong because of them, cause great or small suffering,

and perhaps even worse than that.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not believe a born again Christian, with the law written on their mind and placed on their heart would not be aware if they sinned, neither could they truthfully say they never sin.

And I would agree with your assessment!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

you seem to not understand what faith without work is dead means.

I understand it just fine which is why I defend the works that are done in and through a believer by the Holy Spirit, as the bible makes it clear by the words of Paul, Peter, James, and John that if those fruits of the Spirit are not evident in a believers life then they are not born again in the Spirit.
For if you are born again in the Spirit, He will help and guide you away from unrighteousness and uncleanness and lead you in righteousness and good works. The bible more then once says a born again believer will be zealous to defend and urge others to do good works and be fruitful.

You can not be grafted in and abide in Christ and not produce good fruit/works, as that would mean that Christ who does the work does not abide in you if there is no change in one's life. People constantly say there is no can not do, or have to do any more under the new covenant of grace we are in. But Paul constantly in all of his epistles says over and over again you can not live in the flesh and get eternal live, and shows the fruit of Spirit that would be in your life if you are born again. Paul even says that forgiving others is a must in a believers walk, which goes hand and hand with what the Lord said about forgiving others or you will not be forgiven.

James like I said before makes it very clear as he compares faith without works just like are body if it has no soul. Your body could not live without the soul, just as your faith does not lead to eternal life without the fruits/works of the Spirit.

Actually he is correct and you don't really understand it........what you miss is the (show me your faith) as James is speaking of a man's invisible inward faith being seen by MEN and how it can be seen by men.....

You also reject Paul's view and inspired word which states WE conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS of the LAW=works.......

Before GOD a man is justified by FAITH
BEFORE men a man's faith is seen by his works

That is why you fail to understand what JAMES is actually saying and wrongly attributing works in addition to faith for salvation.....Gospel of a different kind with no power to save is what you have trusted into and propagate!<---GALATIANS

you must spread some reputation around before giving it to dcontroversal again.

 

[jamie26301]

I will just say it takes a lot of nerve to judge what only God can see - the heart. And that's what someone is doing when he assumes the other is going to hell based solely, it seems, on the text the other writes. Never mind they claim repentance and worship Jesus, which repentance is what Jesus says is you need (most of this talk seems to be coming from Paul's letters) "They're not doing it the proper way! Their theology is not exactly like mine! So they couldn't possible love Jesus!"

If the love for God and attaining salvation is just as dependant on how we understand the receiving of salvation, as walking in it, there is no hope for us. You can sit along the track and debate all day long how to train, what shoes to use, the proper swing of the arms, the proper breathing techniques, and on and on - but that says nothing of one's actual ability to run. Knowing the proper techniques doesn't win the race, only running it does.

King David had no military training against Goliath. He did it endowed with God's strength - but he still put forth effort, didn't he? He still shot, for God to use the stone. I don't care what your method is - if God blesses it, it will be used and profitable, regardless of the person's experience, knowledge, or literal effort. Some declare King David as a type of Christ. Notice Christ, shown in King David, uses things that appear quite foolish and of little help, to mightily save. And rejects what would cpbe considered helpful and vital (the heavy armour, rejecting it more because of convience than anything else). And before someone says "But it was the Philistines who thought it foolish." So did God's people, as they thought him undertake a suicide mission. Except King Saul, but we know how quickly he changed his tune, so his original melody probably wasn't all that genuine.

I think that is what Christians mean about the difference between knowing about Him and knowing Him. You can learn to run properly, but it does little good unless you run. And even so - the race is not about who gets there first (who understands properly), but that they cross the line to begin with, even with said defective techniques and heresies. It wasn't Jesus who coined that, you know. When He talked of false teaching, it was usually a moral nature (misleading others for one's own benefit for example), not a theological one.

I don't mean to enter the deabte. I see the faith alone but the other makes sense as well, and I understand how both have been drawn from Scruipture. I have also been of the dogmatic persuasion of both, at different times in my life. Now, I'm just open, because I believe the faith is more about the walk/run itself, than the method. Of course, that means I'm on the fence, not firm/certain in what I believe, and thus I will go to hell as well.

Point is, that it is foolish to be divided over how to run - just run.