The Law as a School MASTER

[eternally-gratefull]

I am trying to show you this as best as I can yet you and a few others keep constantly wanting to label any works as all wrong and terrible things to do. Paul taught eternal life comes at the end after you have endured just as Jesus taught, not that you already have physical possession of right now. Paul only preached that you have mental assurance of it right now.

No, he did not. Eph 1 and 2 states clearly we have it now.

1. he blessed us already with every spiritual blessing. past tense

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

2. He chose us before the word was even created to be held blameless before God, adopted as his son, and acceptable to him

[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

3. we have the forgiveness of all sin, based on his redemptive act, not because we earned it by being good and doing certain things,

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

4. we have obtained an inheritance, when we first trusted (had faith) in Christ.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

5. We have the eternal guarantee and seal of the Holy Spirit this seal which will last until the day of redemption and can not be broken

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

6. He made us alive (born again, eternal life) who were dead because of sin. and seated us at the right hand of God (again past tense)

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [SUP]5[/SUP]even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [SUP]6 [/SUP]and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7. we are saved, recieve these things, and adopted as sons based solely on the grace of God, and not our works. It is a gift of God. and nothing we can take credit for (boast) and again, past tense.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

8. It is after we are saved, receive the inheritance which is incorruptible, predestined to us, given as his son, and guaranteed by the seal of the HS, that we produce works, which we were created (made a new creature) to do

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

9. He abolished what stood between us and God (the law) and made us unacceptable to even be in his presence, and made us one in Christ, fully acceptable to God. And in it, have given us peace, and rest. and in this, has reconciled us to god (again past tense)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [SUP]15 [/SUP]having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity

I could go on and on and on in this passage and also all the rest o f his books to prove how what your claiming should be easy for us to understand is not only wrong, But not according to the word of God.
If you can read this, and still claim that we do not recieve any of these things until death, then you are not reading the words of Paul, your reading with blind eyes, and ignoring the true glory and wonder of Gods unfailing love, grace and mercy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Apostle Paul says are salvation is nearer then when we first believed in the Lord (Romans 13:11).
I have mentioned over 25 scriptures from the bible where Paul, Peter, and Jude all say that only if you keep yourself in the faith and under God's grace do you receive eternal life. They did not preach eternal security from day one of faith in the Lord as you and a few others claim, and as a matter of fact I have posted a study that the early church did not teach an OSAS doctrine.
Apostle Paul did not warn believers over and over and over again if it did not matter for our salvation.

The Galatians did not go back to justification by the law because that is what their faith was always in. They went back to the law by following the teachings from false teachers, as that is why Galatians said they went back. Even Paul points out how they have been bewitched by these false teachers, and calls out Peter for letting it happen.

I did not say we do not fail or we will not sin, but the sin is our own doing as we our drawn away from our fellowship with the Lord by giving into our lusts. We regain that fellowship by repenting/confessing that sin to receive remission through Christ for it. What I do not agree with is those who say we sin the same sins constantly everyday, as that would mean as the bible shows you are denying the Holy Spirit.
A born again believer can not have it both ways; You can not abide in Christ, and abide in sin everyday, as only one can be your master.

you still do not get it, you ignore the words of paul. I can post probably a hundred verses which say a gentile has no means to salvation unless they convert to the OT mosaic law. and do certain things, it does not make it so. so you can post all you want thinking they support your point, and ignore the hundreds of other verses which wipe out your points, and show you to be in error.

if what you claimm is true, we are under law not grace, a person who earns the right to be called a child of God by his actions is not under grace, he in under reward, he has earned his way, thats what you teach.

John tells us otherwise.

we are born of the will of God, not the will of man, not by our deeds, not because we demand it, but because God gave us that right, because we trust in his name, the only name of Christ, the word. and we received his grace gift. there is a huge difference from receiving something God is offering us and doing what you preach and try to earn it.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I meant by saying the demons have faith is simply that they believe and know without a doubt who Jesus and God are. One of the definitions of faith in the dictionary is the belief in God. Obviously they don't worship or obey God. Sorry for using the word faith I should have said believe. But read the scripture I quoted it still compares the person without works to a demon who believes in God. Not much good to believe in God if you don't show it in your daily life.

trying using a greek dictionary to get the definition of faith.

Faith is more than mere belief.

It is a trust in, and assurance of. A person claims he can do something you trust them to do it.

the best example i have heard of what true faith vs belief is is this.

a man can be seen walking a tight rope over Niagara falls 100 times. even pushing a cart with is full of rocks which way the size of an average man

After seeing a man do this 100 times, You can ask anyone if they believe he can do it. No would would deny the fact that he could do it. They all believe it. But this is where faith comes in.

If you are offered to prove your faith, and enter the cart in place of the rocks, your true faith is shown. Will you take a step of faith and do the work of riding? or will you pass, because although you believe he can do it, You do not trust him to do it.

As james said, True faith produces works, Mere belief may agree, even understand and believe what is said, but has no works to prove his faith was given life, it was dead. a dead faith is no faith at all, it is lifeless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This all boils down to the theory of OSAS. Again why do we ignore bible scriptures that we don't like. (Matthew 10:22) [SUP]22[/SUP] And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.
Jesus said you must endure to the end. What does that mean to you?

It means what it says, those who endure to the end of great tribulation will be physically saved.

He is not talking about eternal life.

Why do you ignore scripture, and worse, feel you can earn your right to heaven?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.



1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.




Justification involves more than mere lip service. note I did not say we work to be justified. But it is clear that a person is not justified apart from works. The works are Gods not ours, and come to those who have faith.

here is the problem.

Paul says we who were saved, give an inhertaince, and sealed by the spirit ONCE walked in sin.

But now we have a new life.

No one is denying that a person who is saved will work.

What we are denying, is what people like Ken here is saying, that we can ever do enough work even AFTER we are saved to earn the right to be called children of God. no matter how many work we do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can a born again Christian view grace as a licence to sin? The new covenant comes in TWO PARTS not one. One without the other equals no new covenant.
Obedience comes from faith(Rom 1:5)

Grace is the empowerment of victory over sin. The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56. Those who stress striving to obey the law to attain Heaven preach a Gospel that leaves the power of sin firmly in place, those who speak of grace believe the true power of sin was broken by Christ's death at Calvary

amen,

A true born again christian has repented of his sin, He understood where he stood with God because of his sin, He is not going to want to go out and do the very things which caused him to need Gods forgiveness to be saved in the first place.

The people who use a license to sin are people who do not believe they are bad people, (I believe in Christ, and will leave it at that) and people who are legalistic in their theology, who will not do the pet sins they condemn, but excuse the rest of the sin in their life, and totally ignore it.

 

[mailmandan]

However a true faith produces fruit or good works unto salvation. If all a person has to do is profess Jesus as their Lord to get salvation, then all that call on His name will be saved.

True faith is unto salvation, which then produces fruit or good works. Saved by grace through faith FIRST and created in Christ Jesus then UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You put the cart before the horse, which demonstrates that your faith is in your works and NOT in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Romans 10:13 - For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Quite contrary to your distorted view Kenneth it does say exactly that....call upon his name and be saved....this is a basic truth that you cannot fathom...nor will you ever be able to fathom it because you trust into works and it is that simple......

FAITH--->SAVES-->saving faith--->produces works<----WORKS DO NOT SAVE, but are evidences of GENUINE FAITH which has ALREADY saved......this is the simple truth that you cannot fathom......!

Amen brother! Well said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Michael, I think there is confusion between grace and cheap grace and when I hear the word grace I immediately assume that it is from a person who believe once save always saved and grace is a licence to sin.

When you hear the word law you immediately think Pharisees and legalistic.


Somewhere between these two statements we will find the truth and if we look at it we will start to accommodate each others views.

must be careful. We do not teach the same gospel. we can not say its ok for you to believe what you want and occomodate them.

It is one thing to say we should live a life which is in alignment with Gods laws.

it is another to say this is required to earn salvation.

Both preach follow Gods commands.

Hoever one is following for appreciation and faith in Christ

The other is following to earn what God wants to give us freely.

As God says, I am the alpha and omega, it is finished, Because of what I did, I am able to give the spirit of living waters WITHOUT COST to wll who will recieve.

some here want to place a cost for receiving this gift of God.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

must be careful. We do not teach the same gospel. we can not say its ok for you to believe what you want and occomodate them.

It is one thing to say we should live a life which is in alignment with Gods laws.

it is another to say this is required to earn salvation.

Both preach follow Gods commands.

Hoever one is following for appreciation and faith in Christ

The other is following to earn what God wants to give us freely.

As God says, I am the alpha and omega, it is finished, Because of what I did, I am able to give the spirit of living waters WITHOUT COST to wll who will recieve.

some here want to place a cost for receiving this gift of God.

Yes you are right. Salvation was never earned by works (not even under law) but always through relationship. Even today we don't have salvation through grace but relationship.

Grace was there from day 1, but for the same price also the law. Our interpretation could be flawed but never ABBA Father's word.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Hos 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

[michael56]

Unhappily, many folks do not take into consideration that the Epistles are Letters to specific assembliees who were experiencing specific problems in their understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this cause the letters were written to them. Now there is much to glean from the letters to this errant bodies, however if one has indeed learned of Christ and the Holy Spirit, he does not need the Epistles.

All to many theologies under the infulence of the problems addressed to one group or another have been formed and have failed as theologies because they do not rely totally on the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by HIm. Again, as Paul teaches, there is no other gospel.

If people wish to glean a theology from Paul only, they should do all Paul teaches to all of those errant assemblies, however when one learns from the Master, he will always understand the His Teachings, HIs Gospel, without the clutter of the problems of such as Corinthians, Colossions, Romans, ets. It is good to read that history of our progress, however remaining always in the words of Yeshua is the Way, the Truth and the Life, amen.

By the way, the foundations of the New Jerusalem are built as twelve, not thirteen. This may or may not be important to you or others.

[SUP] [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse![SUP]10 [/SUP]Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
[h=3]Paul Called by God[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP]I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin.[SUP]12 [/SUP]I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. Gal1:8-11

have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth John 16:12&13

Possibly, those who simply try and follow the literal commands of Christ, without understanding what Paul wrote, are not allowing themselves to be led of the Spirit into truth

 

[michael56]

Unhappily, many folks do not take into consideration that the Epistles are Letters to specific assembliees who were experiencing specific problems in their understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this cause the letters were written to them. Now there is much to glean from the letters to this errant bodies, however if one has indeed learned of Christ and the Holy Spirit, he does not need the Epistles.

All to many theologies under the infulence of the problems addressed to one group or another have been formed and have failed as theologies because they do not rely totally on the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by HIm. Again, as Paul teaches, there is no other gospel.

If people wish to glean a theology from Paul only, they should do all Paul teaches to all of those errant assemblies, however when one learns from the Master, he will always understand the His Teachings, HIs Gospel, without the clutter of the problems of such as Corinthians, Colossions, Romans, ets. It is good to read that history of our progress, however remaining always in the words of Yeshua is the Way, the Truth and the Life, amen.

By the way, the foundations of the New Jerusalem are built as twelve, not thirteen. This may or may not be important to you or others.

You honestly believe if one is learnt of the Holy Spirit they have no need of the Epistles that follow the Gospels? Wow! I have never heard that one before!! So you only need a NT of four books? I am sorry, but you are seriously misguided. Christ stated the disciples could not yet bear more knowledge than he had given them, for the Spirit had not yet come upon them. The Spirit came on Paul and the other Apostles, and they preached what the disciples could not bear to understand while Jesus walked this earth

Is your last statement meant to undermine the letters of Paul in regard to the rest of the NT?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes you are right. Salvation was never earned by works (not even under law) but always through relationship. Even today we don't have salvation through grace but relationship.

Grace was there from day 1, but for the same price also the law. Our interpretation could be flawed but never ABBA Father's word.

amen, God did not tell Adam and Eve to make their own clothes. he covered their nakedness for them, by taking the life of an animal. and using its spilt blood to "cover them"

a true picture of reconciliation by grace immediately following the first sin

 

[JaumeJ]

I ask you, have you received the Holy Spirit? Does not the spirit you have received tell you all you need to know? Are you telling me now that Paul has added to or taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Did I not make direct reference to the quotes from Paul that you are saying back to me?

I will say to you, what the blind man healed said to the hypocrites, "Do you also want to be His disciple?"
I pray you do.

Pay attention to the posts you claim to be addressing. No one hs said Paul's writings are without value, though I have emphasized that the Gospel of Jeuss Christ, from Jesus Christ, will save any amn who learns His techings, for Paul claims to be teaching the same Gospel, or have you read anything I have posted at all? Now I believe you are attempting to Salemize my posting by pitting the teachings of Paul against the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Watch what you are attempting to say, rather to accuse young person. Jesus Christ was not changed by Paul. As I have mentioned I have learned much from Paul, but I am afraid most who read Paul have severe tunnel vison, leaving out any change for the Gospeel of Jesus Christ from Jesus Christ to be effective.

Yes, with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spiri nothing else is necessary if it is His will. Even Paul knew this elementary understanding.

You honestly believe if one is learnt of the Holy Spirit they have no need of the Epistles that follow the Gospels? Wow! I have never heard that one before!! So you only need a NT of four books? I am sorry, but you are seriously misguided. Christ stated the disciples could not yet bear more knowledge than he had given them, for the Spirit had not yet come upon them. The Spirit came on Paul and the other Apostles, and they preached what the disciples could not bear to understand while Jesus walked this earth

Is your last statement meant to undermine the letters of Paul in regard to the rest of the NT?

 

[michael56]

I ask you, have you received the Holy Spirit? Does not the spirit you have received tell you all you need to know? Are you telling me now that Paul has added to or taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Did I not make direct reference to the quotes from Paul that you are saying back to me?

I will say to you, what the blind man healed said to the hypocrites, "Do you also want to be His disciple?"
I pray you do.

Pay attention to the posts you claim to be addressing. No one hs said Paul's writings are without value, though I have emphasized that the Gospel of Jeuss Christ, from Jesus Christ, will save any amn who learns His techings, for Paul claims to be teaching the same Gospel, or have you read anything I have posted at all? Now I believe you are attempting to Salemize my posting by pitting the teachings of Paul against the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Watch what you are attempting to say, rather to accuse young person. Jesus Christ was not changed by Paul. As I have mentioned I have learned much from Paul, but I am afraid most who read Paul have severe tunnel vison, leaving out any change for the Gospeel of Jesus Christ from Jesus Christ to be effective.

Yes, with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spiri nothing else is necessary if it is His will. Even Paul knew this elementary understanding.

have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth John 16:12&13


Paul explains the Gospel Christ died to usher in. Christ taught his disciples they were not yet ready(to bear) all he would like to tell them, but when the Holy Spirit came then they would come to a knowledge of all truth. Do you accept Christ's teaching?

Christ commissioned Paul to spread the message of the Gospel concerning himself. Why did Christ do that if it was not necessary?

According to Jesus, the knowledge that came after the Gospels was because the Holy Spirit had come upon those who wrote the books, Christ could not teach a lot of that knowledge to the disciples for they were not yet ready to bear it. That is Christ's teaching

 

[michael56]

The people who have a problem with Paul's teaching, and suggest it contradicts Christ's teaching are those who refuse to be led of the Holy Spirit into truth.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I ask you, have you received the Holy Spirit? Does not the spirit you have received tell you all you need to know? Are you telling me now that Paul has added to or taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Did I not make direct reference to the quotes from Paul that you are saying back to me?

I will say to you, what the blind man healed said to the hypocrites, "Do you also want to be His disciple?"
I pray you do.

Pay attention to the posts you claim to be addressing. No one hs said Paul's writings are without value, though I have emphasized that the Gospel of Jeuss Christ, from Jesus Christ, will save any amn who learns His techings, for Paul claims to be teaching the same Gospel, or have you read anything I have posted at all? Now I believe you are attempting to Salemize my posting by pitting the teachings of Paul against the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Watch what you are attempting to say, rather to accuse young person. Jesus Christ was not changed by Paul. As I have mentioned I have learned much from Paul, but I am afraid most who read Paul have severe tunnel vison, leaving out any change for the Gospeel of Jesus Christ from Jesus Christ to be effective.

Yes, with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spiri nothing else is necessary if it is His will. Even Paul knew this elementary understanding.

Brother Jack, my friend in Christ and beloved child of our Father.......
Good morning to you sir
Please pray and consider this my friend.......

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

May God give you understanding and liberty through His Spirit forever.

 

[JaumeJ]

If detractors would read the thread of my own posts this day, they will find I learn from Paul, and I do not deny Paul. Unhappily, the main detractor does not read what I have posted, or if he has, he is changing the meaning of what I have posted. The Holy Spirit did and does teach me, I know because of the miracles which accompanied my own conversion.

I do not think that Paul would deny anything I have posted about the Gospel, about him, and about Salvation in Jesus Christ..

Brother Jack, my friend in Christ and beloved child of our Father.......
Good morning to you sir
Please pray and consider this my friend.......

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

May God give you understanding and liberty through His Spirit forever.

 

[dcontroversal]

]Please stop using man made definitions for words, and start using how the bible uses it.[/B]
If justification in the bible means rendered innocent as you state, then there would be no need for repentance. For the bible says justification comes from faith/belief. Yet the Lord says unless you repent of your sins and receive remission of your sins by Him you will perish. No repentance = No salvation

So you can not be rendered innocent before you even repent of your sins..............





.....

The above bolded shows and sets forth your complete ignorance of scripture, the definition of the Greek word and the order of the bible......the reason you cannot accept the truth is obvious...because it contradicts your heretical view and misguided falsehoods.....

Justified-->dikiaoo-->to render (i.e. show or regard as) JUST or INNOCENCT-FREELY justify, be RIGHTEOUS

What you are so blind to is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST being IMPUTED to the BELIEVER at the MOMENT of BELIEF which RENDERS the BELIEVER JUSTIFIED before GOD BY FAITH.......

FAITH-->SAVED-->JUSTIFIED-->SANCTIFIED POSITIONALLY IN CHRIST for EVER......=SONSHIP BY BIRTH

REPENTENCE is required of SINS committed after salvation to MAINTAIN FELLOWSHIP

YOU CANNOT be a LEARNER of ONES doctrine until you HAVE BEEN saved......THE NATURAL MAN cannot KNOW or discern the WORD of GOD as it takes a SPIRITUAL BIRTH from ABOVE to do so.....

You have moved to the top of the list for sure with the above statement of denial!

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.



1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.




Justification involves more than mere lip service. note I did not say we work to be justified. But it is clear that a person is not justified apart from works. The works are Gods not ours, and come to those who have faith.

So was Paul stupid, misguided and or not under inspiration when he penned...Therefore we CONCLUDE a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.....?