The Law Debacle Resolved

[Utah]

We stand IN Christ

outside of Him...no one stands

He is our shelter and our rock and our fortress in times of trouble

He is our peace and He has made peace with our God for us!

Ember, I am going through the rest of today and always rejoicing in what you have shared.

Thank you and God bless you!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You're just trying to twist things around as you always do. Scripture says walking in the spirit produces fruit against which no law can bring a charge of disobedience. You said walking in the fruit causes one to not break the law. Complete twisting of scripture and nonsense.

You are the one twisting things not me, and I never said walking in the fruit causes one to break the law !!!

Please stop with your continuous lies about me !!!

You're losing it, dude. Reread what I said.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are the one who is doing the accusing, not me and I am done with you !!!

Of course you are. There's no way you can stand against what Acts 15 says.

 

[RickyZ]

The last several posts are interesting and quite true. But when the Pharisees wake up and come in here. LOOK OUT.


Kefa

What I find amusing is that your pharasees have left the building yet you're still arguing!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The ten commandments sure are referenced a whole lot....for being done away with and unnecessary today. Not much opinion here....just verses.

The 10 commandments are most valuable for instruction and edification, but Acts 15:20, which you listed, proves that gentiles were never under, not expected to be under, the 10 commandments.

Every other commandment you listed falls under the two greatest commandments of faith and love. Again, what you listed is most useful for instruction and edification in how to walk.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What I find amusing is that your pharasees have left the building yet you're still arguing!

Pharisees would be like those described in Acts 15:5

But some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to observe the law of Moses!” Acts 15:5​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Walking in His righteousness means we walk by His teachings and commands that leads to liberty from the law through Him, and walking in our own righteousness is doing as the Pharisees did in doing everything for self.

Acts 15:5 describes the pharisees as being those who taught that gentile believers had to observe the law of Moses.

 

[ember]

Ember, I am going through the rest of today and always rejoicing in what you have shared.

Thank you and God bless you!

thank you...I rejoice with you!

A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1

 

[KennethC]

Walking in the fruit of the Holy Spirit will not lead one to transgress the law, we do that our selves when we get drawn away by our own lusts and desires. Apostle James clearly shows this !!!

Walking in the Spirit a person can not walk in disobedience, disobedience comes from self not the Spirit !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Walking in the fruit of the Holy Spirit will not lead one to transgress the law, we do that our selves when we get drawn away by our own lusts and desires. Apostle James clearly shows this !!!

Walking in the Spirit a person can not walk in disobedience, disobedience comes from self not the Spirit !!!

Until you define what doing things for self actually means, your doctrine is pretty meaningless. It's an expression that is much too vague and ambiguous.

 

[Shoshanah]

There is no confusing when one does a history study on Jewish tradition and customs and go by their calendar, and one will find that Saturday was the original day of the Sabbath observance. It was changed to Sunday by Constantine and the RCC to not cause a stumbling block on new converts.

However this just confuses the whole issue since the Sabbath observance is clearly shown observed in a different way then the OT standard.

It does appear that HeRoseFromTheDead is twisting things you are saying as I read both yours and his posts.

Now concerning the Sabbath as Saturday, didn't Pope Gregory live after Constantine died? The Julian calendar was revised by Pope Gregory's calendar? Saturn was a Roman God. Then Sunday was named after a sun god Ra in relation to Egyptian worship. Should either day be called a Sabbath day according to Exodus chapter 16?

 

[KennethC]

It does appear that HeRoseFromTheDead is twisting things you are saying as I read both yours and his posts.

Now concerning the Sabbath as Saturday, didn't Pope Gregory live after Constantine died? The Julian calendar was revised by Pope Gregory's calendar? Saturn was a Roman God. Then Sunday was named after a sun god Ra in relation to Egyptian worship. Should either day be called a Sabbath day according to Exodus chapter 16?

This is true but this has no bearing on when or why the Sabbath was changed, the original day of observance by the Jews was on Saturday and changed later to Sunday by Constantine and the RCC.

Constantine changed this because he did not want to cause stumbling blocks to his soldiers.

 

[RickyZ]

Let me interject here one more time in the (probably false) hope of removing some blinders.

Part one:



I have from the VERY BEGINNING been in agreement with your 'anti-Pharisee' argument:



SALVATION IS NOT GAINED OR LOST THRU WORKS.



Let me repeat that because I know you're not listening:



I agree with you the salvation is not gained by works, nor can it be lost by works.



And one more time, just because I know you're not listening:



I HAVE, AND ALWAYS HAVE, AGREED THAT SALVATION IS NOT GAINED THRU WORKS, NOR IS IT LOST BY WORKS.



Do I have to say it a fourth time or are we good now?

 

[RickyZ]

Part two: Here's the troubling issue -

The non-Pharisee group goes on to insist that because salvation itself is not affected by one's works, that works therefore have no place in a believers life.

Let me repeat that again lest you not be paying attention:



The non-Pharisee group goes on to insist that because salvation itself is not affected by one's works, that works therefore have no place in a believers life.


That is where we disagree. That is and always have been the gist of my arguments -


THAT EVEN THO WORKS (AND THE LAW THEY ARE BASED UPON) HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON ONE'S SALVATION. WORKS DO NONETHELESS HAVE A PLACE IN A BELIEVERS LIFE.


And let me repeat that because, oh, you know -


THAT EVEN THO WORKS (AND THE LAW THEY ARE BASED UPON) HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON ONE'S SALVATION, WORKS DO NONETHELESS HAVE A PLACE IN A BELIEVERS LIFE.


Now, the fact that you non-Pharisees cannot discern the difference in my simple little missives, tells me you cannot discern the difference in scripture.

And let me repeat that for clarity:

the fact that you non-Pharisees cannot discern the difference in my simple little missives, tells me you cannot discern the difference in scripture.

And that is what troubles me here. There is a huge lack of discernment in the non-Pharisee group. And lack of discernment is caused by tunnel vision and the unwillingness to take in the whole picture.

 

[RickyZ]

Part 3 -

So let me sum up here what a lot of us are saying:

Works do not earn or lose you salvation.

and again

Works do not earn or lose you salvation.

But works (and the law they are based upon) still have a place in a believers life.

And again

works (and the law they are based upon), altho not a factor in salvation, still have a place in a believers life





now, A)Can we agree on that, or are you all B) still stuck on the idea that I (and others like me) are preaching a works based salvation?


Your answer to that will answer whether you are tunnel visioned or seeing the big picture. And with scripture you want to see the big picture

 

[crossnote]

Put me on ignore if you like just for a simple disagreement, but there are multiple scriptures from Paul, Peter, and John that clearly shows walking by the Spirit means we add His fruit to our lives. Paul clearly says in Galatians 5:23 that those who walk by this fruit (giving the list), there is no law !!!

The law still exists for those who transgress it as the bible does confirm this !!!

I saw this because someone had responded to it and I felt it needed a reponse.

I put you on ignore not for 'a simple disagreement' but because you incessantly (even on other threads) seem to argue just to argue, and when challenged you start to redefine terms, twist the issues and misrepresent what the other is saying.
Yes, we all are guilty from time to time of this but in your case it is in constant crescendo mode and I could stand it no longer as well as find it a total waste of time responding.

 

[crossnote]

Let me interject here one more time in the (probably false) hope of removing some blinders.

Part one:



I have from the VERY BEGINNING been in agreement with your 'anti-Pharisee' argument:



SALVATION IS NOT GAINED OR LOST THRU WORKS.



Let me repeat that because I know you're not listening:



I agree with you the salvation is not gained by works, nor can it be lost by works.



And one more time, just because I know you're not listening:



I HAVE, AND ALWAYS HAVE, AGREED THAT SALVATION IS NOT GAINED THRU WORKS, NOR IS IT LOST BY WORKS.



Do I have to say it a fourth time or are we good now?

i take it your addressing Kenneth? Good.

 

[crossnote]

Part two: Here's the troubling issue -

The non-Pharisee group goes on to insist that because salvation itself is not affected by one's works, that works therefore have no place in a believers life.

Let me repeat that again lest you not be paying attention:



The non-Pharisee group goes on to insist that because salvation itself is not affected by one's works, that works therefore have no place in a believers life.


That is where we disagree. That is and always have been the gist of my arguments -


THAT EVEN THO WORKS (AND THE LAW THEY ARE BASED UPON) HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON ONE'S SALVATION. WORKS DO NONETHELESS HAVE A PLACE IN A BELIEVERS LIFE.


And let me repeat that because, oh, you know -


THAT EVEN THO WORKS (AND THE LAW THEY ARE BASED UPON) HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON ONE'S SALVATION, WORKS DO NONETHELESS HAVE A PLACE IN A BELIEVERS LIFE.


Now, the fact that you non-Pharisees cannot discern the difference in my simple little missives, tells me you cannot discern the difference in scripture.

And let me repeat that for clarity:

the fact that you non-Pharisees cannot discern the difference in my simple little missives, tells me you cannot discern the difference in scripture.

And that is what troubles me here. There is a huge lack of discernment in the non-Pharisee group. And lack of discernment is caused by tunnel vision and the unwillingness to take in the whole picture.

I guess you haven't been listening.
Point to a post that asserts...
"...because salvation itself is not affected by one's works, that works therefore have no place in a believers life."

Also your term " non pharisee" is an admittance that the other group is made up of pharisees.

 

[crossnote]

Part 3 -

So let me sum up here what a lot of us are saying:

Works do not earn or lose you salvation.

and again

Works do not earn or lose you salvation.

But works (and the law they are based upon) still have a place in a believers life.

And again

works (and the law they are based upon), altho not a factor in salvation, still have a place in a believers life





now, A)Can we agree on that, or are you all B) still stuck on the idea that I (and others like me) are preaching a works based salvation?


Your answer to that will answer whether you are tunnel visioned or seeing the big picture. And with scripture you want to see the big picture

Right. It's called fruit of the Spirit...

Galatians 5:18-24 KJV
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Least]

Seems that there was a whole debate on using the ignore button...and people jumped all over some for using it.

I happen to now think that's it's an excellent feature.