The Law.................Faith

[john832]

Also in Revelation 13:14-18 is the beast (false church) is breaking the commandments of God, and this is during the very last days. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (New Jerusalem) Revelation 22:14. Also see Revelation 21:7-8, 1 John 5:2-3, Hosea 4:6

And also...

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The saints keep the Commandments. Christ said to keep them...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

but people would rather quote a verse from Paul out of context...

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[john832]

Edit

(ten characters)

 

[Karraster]

...more out of context verses,

Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.


And the drinking was according to the law; none did compel: for so the king had appointed to all the officers of his house, that they should do according to every man's pleasure.

And the saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan:





I just couldn't resist...................

 

[Vernon]

The Law ............. Faith

niether profit anything if we have not love, we can have faith to move mountains but if we have not love it means nothing. We can observe the law to the letter but if we have not love it is vanity.
Jesus certainly never said for his disciples to not obey the law of Moses, and none of the apostles said to not obey the law. Jesus did not abolish the law as some teach, but he reformed the law. Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, that our failure to fulfill the law would not destroy us, because we place our faith in his accomplishments for us. No one who continues in disobedience is of Christ. Without the Holy Spirit we would not be able to obey the commandments and would not even have a desire to do so.
Some see the reformation of the law in different ways, some say all food is clean while others believe they are obligated to follow the dietary laws, some believe they need observe the jewish sabbath while others believe Sunday is the sabbath of the church.
Paul said we should not condemn one another over such disputes, but each individual should follow Christ as they are led to follow him, indicating there is now a freedom in Christ to follow the law.
"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17

 

[p_rehbein]

Why do people just pick one or two verse to try to make a point and totally miss what God's Word (Jesus) is saying? Romans 6 is saying that if you are true followers of Jesus you will keep his law even though we are saved by grace. Grace and the law (ten commandments) go hand in hand (verse 15). If you disobey God's commandments you are a servant of the devil (verse 16). Not being under the law does not mean that we do not have to keep the commandments, it is saying that the law is now written in your heart and it becomes second nature to God's people (verse 17).

Lessee..........the OP contains about 55.......that's fifty five verses......uh, hmmm....how many verses does your response contain? (might wanna walk slowly away from that pile of stones your eying....... )

 

[p_rehbein]

I really like this post. Well said.

............seriously?..............



pot........................................kettle..............................? maybe? possibly?

 

[p_rehbein]

Thank you. I'm just trying to share God's truth as the Holy Spirit reveals it to me. God bless.

.........uh, er, .................. so the Scriptures quoted in the OP are NOT God's Truth? ............... really?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He gloriously fulfilled the law, but the New Testament believer is not under the law now; the law was changed, and the New Testament believer is under grace.

the OT believers were under grace also. no one was ever saved by following the law

the law only had one purpose. prove to everyone they need Christ (the lamb of God) to remove the penalty of the law. which was death..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So Christians can disobey God and break the ten commandments, the moral law? Or is it the ceremonial law that was done away with?

No.

Christians are still unable to keep the moral law. It continues to show them, without Christ, they are doomed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do people just pick one or two verse to try to make a point and totally miss what God's Word (Jesus) is saying? Romans 6 is saying that if you are true followers of Jesus you will keep his law even though we are saved by grace. Grace and the law (ten commandments) go hand in hand (verse 15). If you disobey God's commandments you are a servant of the devil (verse 16). Not being under the law does not mean that we do not have to keep the commandments, it is saying that the law is now written in your heart and it becomes second nature to God's people (verse 17).

Why do people keep thinking they can keep the law? You do understand nothing short of 100 % obeyance off all Gods laws (not just the ten, thats a copout) is required to be righteous according to the law. Why do you think you can do this. when no other person (other than Christ) has done this.

 

[faroukfarouk]

the OT believers were under grace also. no one was ever saved by following the law

the law only had one purpose. prove to everyone they need Christ (the lamb of God) to remove the penalty of the law. which was death..

Thle Old Testament believers - the justified by faith - were, however, under the strictures of the law in a way that New Testament believers are not. Acts 9 & 10 speak of Peter's vision, whereby what was formerly unclean under the law was no longer to be so. Hebrews 7 says that the law was changes and we now draw night to God according to a 'better hope'.

Blessings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thle Old Testament believers - the justified by faith - were, however, under the strictures of the law in a way that New Testament believers are not. Acts 9 & 10 speak of Peter's vision, whereby what was formerly unclean under the law was no longer to be so. Hebrews 7 says that the law was changes and we now draw night to God according to a 'better hope'.

Blessings.

True,

But even david understood.,

Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. He knew the law could not save them.

The law was given to israel as a way to be blessed by God or cursed by God. It could never save anyone, period.

 

[p_rehbein]

hello there,
I see that nobody (except Jay1) lay a single word on the scale of law, and I find it not fair, because op is named faith….law


Also what a poor discussion without counterarguments, it is not even discussion, it is just…hmm.. nods after nods


So I risk it, (and I know … let’s see how quickly the big black crows will fly here and eat me up with their beaks) and I would put something on the other side of scales


Anyway, try to be gentle with me, I am your guest you know, and woman…and also stranger… so don’t beat me up….. it wouldn’t be polite..


Mat5, 17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven


Luc 10,25- …
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.



Luc 16,17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.



Mat 23,2,3

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


Mt 24, 35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



Rom7.7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Gal. 3,21

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


Gal6,2 2

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. ....law of Christ


1tim1 8

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully



Rom 2, 21
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

......thanks for the Scriptures..........and, no. I'm not a big black crow..........wow, is that how you see Christians who may disagree with your ideology? If so, then how exactly should they describe you? (just saying........... )


QUOTE: Mat5, 17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. END QUOTE:

So, when Jesus said He came to FULFUL the Law............what exactly does that mean to you? IF He FULFILLED the Law, what then? Remembering that the Law was the First Covenant............are we still under the First Covenant?

Luke 10:25 is Grace not law............just saying...........doya remember the two NEW Commandments Jesus gave us, and what HE SAID ABOUT THEM? Do you remember what "hang upon these" referred to?

Mt 24, 35...............ok, so then the Scriptures quoted in the OP will NOT pass away either right? They ARE HIS WORDS.

You need to read Romans 7 and Galatians 3 closer I believe...........just saying........Romans is saying that the Law was given to make man AWARE of his sinfulness and to bring him into judgment.......... Galatians actually argues for the OP (Grace) and against your stance (Law)............just saying.............. No, really, read it...........


Gal. 3,21

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

You do understand that this is clearly saying that the Law is NOT UNTO salvation?

QUOTE:
Gal6,2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. ....law of Christ
END QUOTE

You do know that the Law of Christ is Grace?


QUOTE:
Rom 2, 21
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
END QUOTE:

This is speaking of the 10 Commandments...............NOT the Law...........ergo it does not support your position.........but, hey, nice try............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How does one fulfill the law? (thus how did Christ fulfill it)

first:

Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

thus according to the law. anyone who did not conform to ALL the words of the law and obey them completely with NO sin, were cursed.

Christ fulfilled the law by being the first and only man to fulfill this requirement

second:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]“If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, [SUP]23 [/SUP]his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is [SUP][s][/SUP]accursed of God),

Jesus fulfilled the law. By taking the curse of not fulfilling the law in point one, for us..

and if you do not believe me. Maybe you will believe Paul:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[SUP][g][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[BenFTW]

(From Let Us Reason) - Commandment observers today are zealous and eager to accept a principle Paul himself rejected. He taught against the idea that law-keeping could be used to convey growth for our spiritual life or justification (Gal. 3:1-3). This does not mean we ignore the Old Testament? No the Old Testament teaching is beneficial to the Church to learn examples from Israel, to see the way in which Jesus fulfilled the prophecies and for typology (the tabernacle, feast days, priesthood etc.) But to suggest that both Gentile or Jewish believers in Christ would become more obedient or spiritual if they lived under the law is to miss the power which comes from the Gospel by grace in the new covenant. Paul certainly stood against this idea, so much so that he rebuked the whole Church of Galatia for bringing the law in alongside the Spirit of grace which they began in

[h=3]Galatians 3:1-3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

That is the question. And the answer is, 'No.' We are made perfect, in Christ. We do not mature by means of law-keeping, but by means of focusing on Jesus Christ. Hence why, we read this verse.

[h=3]2 Peter 3:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

How do we grow? What should we grow in? In the revelation of the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, and what does that mean? To see what we are, as with what He has done. Such as, "We are the righteousness of God, in Christ." Truths about us, in relation to Christ and His finished work.

 

[RedTent]

Thle Old Testament believers - the justified by faith - were, however, under the strictures of the law in a way that New Testament believers are not. Acts 9 & 10 speak of Peter's vision, whereby what was formerly unclean under the law was no longer to be so. Hebrews 7 says that the law was changes and we now draw night to God according to a 'better hope'.

Blessings.

Did God change all that He is, was the world made differently in the time between the new and old testament? Did God say scripture is scripture after Christ, and not before Christ?

You are reporting that in OT God atoned based on works, that is seriously misreporting scripture. It is not true.

You are reporting that because we are under Christ and grace, we are not to listen to law. That is seriously misreporting. Not being under law for salvation does not mean don't listen to law.

 

[john832]

Did God change all that He is, was the world made differently in the time between the new and old testament? Did God say scripture is scripture after Christ, and not before Christ? You are reporting that in OT God atoned based on works, that is seriously misreporting scripture. It is not true. You are reporting that because we are under Christ and grace, we are not to listen to law. That is seriously misreporting. Not being under law for salvation does not mean don't listen to law.

Lev 19:32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Once again the wisdom of age is displayed and the need to respect those who have the wisdom and experience to teach.

 

[Cobus]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Feel the need to edit them?

Do you see the process to perfection in these three verses you quoted? If you do not you know not the power of salvation God made for us.

Feel the need to edit? Never John832. I really do get the Truth and the message of God in the Bible. God saves a sinner (in the flesh) to be a NEW CREATURE (in the flesh wit ha NEW SPIRIT AND HEART) EXACTLY to the image and likeness of His son. Yes the destructable flesh will NEVER go into the kingdom, but that does not mean the KINGDOM OF GOD cannot be in the flesh that God chose to be in. The flesh will not enter the Kingdom, but if the Kingdom (God's Spirit) does not enter your flesh, you are of the spirit of the ANTI-CHRIST... 1 John 3.

God's SEED that remaineth in you is the KINGDOM.... It is HIS Spirit and Truth... ALL the KINGDOM of God for flesh as Jesus Himself bear.

Sorry if you cannot understnad this. God's Spirit CANNOT sin not in the flesh of Jesus and not in MINE or YOURS or any flesh. And if we receive not that Spirit from God here on earth, we will NEVER receive Him.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

How do you keep the 10 commandments on your own?

The bible says,all the law hangs on one word.love.

so there is the 10 commandments and the 2 commandments.

GOD said if you love me keep my commandments.

so if GOD does'nt do the work,would'nt that mean that you are doing the work?

 

[guestno2]

......thanks for the Scriptures..........and, no. I'm not a big black crow....


You do know that the Law of Christ is Grace?

but, hey, nice try............

Caw caw caw so I see that first crow arrived ...... just kidding


Brother, will you be really satisfied if your thread will end in a first page without a little bit of flying feathers? Just saying …. You said it yourself in op that you couldn’t resist teasing us with all this…


So you’re welcome.


Ok, so

You are staying that law is fulfill in Jesus, right?
I am saying that law is fulfilled in Jesus and through Him is law fulfilled in us too.
Old flesh is just not able to do that.
But new one, yes.

Therefore we are not throwing out the law. Because we will throw out with law also Jesus.


And fullness of law is love, not grace.


We, as not saved Christians weren’t able to perfectly fulfill law.

It doesn’t mean that law is bad. It means that we are weak.


In Rom 10,4 Paul teaches that Jesus is the end of law as we know it, bcause Jesus with his death take our sin and also the curse witch threatens sinners (death).

Therefore we don’t have to seek justness before God thru law, but thru Jesus. If we ignore this, we despite of grace from God.

So yes, this is the part we are here absolutely united, Jesus is only way. Nobody talking otherwise!


But.

In my eyes it is foolishness to put in contradict faith and law in those correlations as you did here.
(faith as jesus and law as circumcision) hey, you really think, that me or somebody else here is for law as a way of salvation or what??

Or are you trying to convince us that we are not under NT law?

Because Paul Himself is talking about our obligation to obey the new law

He is naming this law 3 times as law of Christ, law of faith and law of Spirit

Rim 3,27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith


Rim 8,2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


1Kor 9,21 To them that are without law, as without law, being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ



You are talking about that law of sin and death, we are talking about that new one
Also!!

Paul didn’t said that the old law (meaning law from Mose) is reprobate, but in a new level fulfilled and subsequently confirmed
(Rom 3,31)

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


See? See that word we?

We establish the law.

Therefore and just for that reason apostol Paul can occasionally (yeh, more than occasionally) arguing from law (OT law) for example in 1Kor, 9, 8-9 and he even support his basic thesis with OT law, that law is not the way to justification.

And he puts forward this new law of faith (so you putting into contrast law and faith can be perceived as an absurdity)

Also Paul expresses that free life in faith, spirit and in Christ is not the life with arbitrariness, but it is the life which incorporates internally severity and law. New law (if you want hear the word new so badly) that we can now fulfill thru Christ.


be blessed
ps sorry for my en, I hope you will understand my view