The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

[PlainWord]

According to Genesis 2:7, a Soul comes into existence at the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. At death, the Breath of Life (whether that of a saint, a sinner, or even an animal) returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, and the Soul ceases to be...until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.

I was asking John146 because he said this:

John146 said:
Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.

He clearly said, "Souls can speak, feel, think, etc." and that they wear robes. I was asking him how that is possible. So far, only crickets from John146.

Now you said, "the soul ceases to be" until one of the resurrections. Does it vanish into thin air? Where does it go and how does it know the way back? I agree the body returns to the earth. What happens next to that body? Please explain the mechanism whereby that body comes back to life as a spiritual body.

 

[PlainWord]

You asked "What do you mean by Christ is our example?" Christ died and He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and He did not raise from the grave until God raised him from the grave and just like Christ we will die and we will descend down to the lower parts of the earth and we will stay there until Christ raises us from the grave on Resurrection Day. Paradise is in the lower parts of the earth.
So lets take the whole verse into consideration instead of quoting only half of the verse and assuming it says something that it doesn't.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse in no way says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" . Paul is saying that he is confident that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When you quote this verse and quote only half of the verse you change the context of the verse to make it sound like it is saying something it is not. By leaving out the words "willing rather"you changes the verse from saying that we would willingly rather be out of this body and to be present with the Lord. Yes without question I would willingly rather be with my Lord then here on this earth and in my body.
But this verse in no way says that we go to heaven as soon as we die.
The soul dose not go striaght to the Lord and there is no scriptural proof that it goes anywhere other then the grave until the soul is raised from the grave by Christ on Resurrection day.

So you believe that when a Christian dies today, their souls still goes to Hades? Did Christ ascend? What does it mean to "lead captivity captive? What is captivity? Who were/are the captives?

Eph 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

When this man Paul knew (likely himself) was caught up (harpazo = Rapture) to the third heaven, which of his three parts, body, soul, spirit, went to heaven?

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (raptured) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words...

Why was it that this person was raptured (caught up) immediately when they died and didn't have to wait for everyone else?
In other words, how does the harpazo used here differ from the harpazo found in 1 Thes 4? In 2 Cor 12, we clearly have an individual rapture - same word, harpazo, is used.

Paul is unclear about whether this person was in or out of the body and he repeats that twice. But this person could hear. Why would Paul be unclear about this since he provides most of the teaching on the subject?

 

[John146]

You asked "What do you mean by Christ is our example?" Christ died and He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and He did not raise from the grave until God raised him from the grave and just like Christ we will die and we will descend down to the lower parts of the earth and we will stay there until Christ raises us from the grave on Resurrection Day. Paradise is in the lower parts of the earth.
So lets take the whole verse into consideration instead of quoting only half of the verse and assuming it says something that it doesn't.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse in no way says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" . Paul is saying that he is confident that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When you quote this verse and quote only half of the verse you change the context of the verse to make it sound like it is saying something it is not. By leaving out the words "willing rather"you changes the verse from saying that we would willingly rather be out of this body and to be present with the Lord. Yes without question I would willingly rather be with my Lord then here on this earth and in my body.
But this verse in no way says that we go to heaven as soon as we die.
The soul dose not go striaght to the Lord and there is no scriptural proof that it goes anywhere other then the grave until the soul is raised from the grave by Christ on Resurrection day.

Yes, willing rather means that Paul is more willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Simple. And Christ is not our example in everything.

 

[John146]

Find in the Word of God where it says that when we die our soul goes straight to heaven. But before you search for it I am telling you that there is no such scripture that says that when we die we go straight to heaven. How do I know that? Because I have spent a long tome looking for it. I am very strict about scripture and I have a line that I draw in the sand so to speak. If it is not written in the Word of God then it is not. If I can't find where it is clearly spelled out in scripture then I never assume that it is true because I consider it to be a sin to assume anything about the Word of God and God never meant for us to assume anything about His Word.

Don’t be ignorant concerning them which are asleep...dead. The Lord is going to bring them, their souls, back with Him at the resurrection of the body. Their souls are with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.

"Souls can speak, feel, think, etc." and they wear robes? If a soul can do all these things, what do they need a body for? Common John146, defend your position.

 

[PlainWord]

Don’t be ignorant concerning them which are asleep...dead. The Lord is going to bring them, their souls, back with Him at the resurrection of the body. Their souls are with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Please show me where the word, "soul" is found in the above passage that you just relied upon.

 

[massorite]

Don’t be ignorant concerning them which are asleep...dead. The Lord is going to bring them, their souls, back with Him at the resurrection of the body. Their souls are with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So the very scriptures you quoted contradict what you are saying. Where does it say in either one of your quoted scriptures that those who are sleeping are in heaven?? Nowhere. However those who are sleeping does prove my point. Jesus stated that the girl wasn't dead but was sleeping.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Lazarus who was in the bossum of Abraham was silent and never say a single word. But we know that Lazarus was saved when he died because he was carried away by angels. But the rich man was not saved and was not carried away to the Bosom of Abraham
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
When Christ was told that Lazarus was sick even Christ told Martha and Mary that Lazarus was not going to die of the sickness.
Joh 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
Oh but Lazarus did die after all which means that Christ was a liar or He didn't know what He was talking about. Right??
No not at all. Though the body of Lazarus died, the souls Lazarus went to the Bosom of Abraham and during the conversation between the rich man and Abraham Lazarus was not dead at all but was in the Bosom of Abraham and never says a word because he was sleeping.
Even in the Old Testament the prophets didn't go straight to heaven when they died but went DOWN into the lower parts of the earth and were sleeping.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when Samuel was brought up he was upset because he was disturbed from his sleep.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
We are even told in prophetic scriptures that we will be sleeping in the dust of the earth and will be raised from the grave. Not brought back down from heaven so we can be raised from the grave by Christ.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:2 proves that we do not go to heaven at all when we die but that we simply go to sleep and are not awakened until Christ comes back to wake us and raise us from the grave
So who is ignorant here??? You call me ignorant yet you quote scripture that actually proves that we don't go to heaven at the point of death and will not go to heaven until the day that Christ raises us from the grave.
I would suggest that you do a little more research and know what you are talking about before you call someone ignorant and assume that you are correct and thereby making yourself look very foolish in doing so.
And still yet you have provided no scripture that tells us that we go to heaven as soon as we die.

 

[massorite]

Yes, willing rather means that Paul is more willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Simple. And Christ is not our example in everything.

Now you are showing just how ignorant you really are. Christ is our perfect example for any and all aspects of life of our walk with him even in death even as He did we will go to Paradise/Bosom of Abraham and will be raised from the grave By God/Christ.
I would say that your statement is bordering on Blasphemy.

 

[CS1]

2 Peter 3:10 KJV says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."​

Notice that "in the which" part? Peter is saying "in the same day the Lord comes as a thief, the heavens (atmosphere) disintegrate, the Periodic Table flips over, and the Earth and the things therein burn to a crisp. Does it sound like there's gonna be 7 more years of anything going on down here after all that? But, just when I thought I'd heard it all, a Jesuit Futurist stepped up and raised the bar to a whole new level of crazy:

"Oh, Peter's talking about the second time the Lord comes as a thief, at the end of the 7 years tribulation". ​

Now please...if Jesus was to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints, would there be anyone left behind on planet Earth in the dark about His return 7 years later? Think about it: Every calendar would be marked when all the Christians disappeared. CNN would have a "XXXX days left until the Lord returns" graphic running 24/7. Don King would activate the greatest event promotion of all time. TicketMaster and StubHub would be selling out as fast as they could print tickets. Times Square would be ready to drop the "Jesus Ball" at the final countdown...but that is the extent to which Jesuit Futurists are willing to go in order to cling to Jesuit Futurism. It's just not Biblical.

interesting. Jesus is to sneak into town? On thing that is not consider here is it is not happy time in the Seven years following the " Rapture" . And if there is no Rapture God is going to protect HIS people while pouring out Judgement on the earth. To scoff and mock
saying " The Jesus Ball" is one of the most unbiblical things I have heard said to make a point. The context of " As a thief" is not same coming "of a thief". The meaning is the event will come when you least expect it. The Bible says in Matthew 24 where Jesus is speaking they will be partying as it were in the days of Noah all the way up until the entered the Ark. This jesuit Futurism is more about the denial of " Last days " than anything it seems. This is a "Amazing Facts" position of the SDA.

The pre-tribulational rapture has Scriptural support. Let us briefly note the promise of return (John 14), the picture of His return (1 Thess. 4:13–18) and the proof of His return (Rev. 3:10). When in John 14, Christ promised to return for his own, it was to take them to the Father’s House. If believers must endure the judgments of the Tribulation, they would meet Him in the air at the second advent and immediately return with Him to earth. In the post-tribulational scheme of things, we would never inhabit the dwelling places in the Father’s House as promised, and, worse by far, Jesus would be guilty of telling a lie.

In 1 Thess. 4:13–18, the Apostle Paul gives a graphic portrayal of the sequence of events at the rapture. At the return of Christ there is the resurrection of the dead, the rapture of the living, the reunion with the Lord and our loved ones in the air, followed by Paul’s blessed reassurance, And so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words, (1 Thess. 4:17b–18). Were believers destined to endure the Tribulation, Paul should have said, Wherefore scare ye one another with these words. Instead, he assures the Thessalonians again, as he has done earlier, that God has not appointed them unto the wrath of the Tribulation but unto salvation (1 Thess. 5:9, 1:10 ; (Romans 5:9).

Perhaps the best proof text for the pre-tribulational rapture position is found in Revelation 3:10: Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. It should be noted that the church is not promised protection in or during the hour of trial, but protection out of it. The Tribulation saints are not promised exemption from suffering (Rev. 6:9–11; 7:9–14; 14:1–3; 15:1–3).

 

[PlainWord]

So the very scriptures you quoted contradict what you are saying. Where does it say in either one of your quoted scriptures that those who are sleeping are in heaven?? Nowhere. However those who are sleeping does prove my point. Jesus stated that the girl wasn't dead but was sleeping.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Lazarus who was in the bossum of Abraham was silent and never say a single word. But we know that Lazarus was saved when he died because he was carried away by angels. But the rich man was not saved and was not carried away to the Bosom of Abraham
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
When Christ was told that Lazarus was sick even Christ told Martha and Mary that Lazarus was not going to die of the sickness.
Joh 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
Oh but Lazarus did die after all which means that Christ was a liar or He didn't know what He was talking about. Right??
No not at all. Though the body of Lazarus died, the souls Lazarus went to the Bosom of Abraham and during the conversation between the rich man and Abraham Lazarus was not dead at all but was in the Bosom of Abraham and never says a word because he was sleeping.
Even in the Old Testament the prophets didn't go straight to heaven when they died but went DOWN into the lower parts of the earth and were sleeping.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when Samuel was brought up he was upset because he was disturbed from his sleep.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
We are even told in prophetic scriptures that we will be sleeping in the dust of the earth and will be raised from the grave. Not brought back down from heaven so we can be raised from the grave by Christ.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:2 proves that we do not go to heaven at all when we die but that we simply go to sleep and are not awakened until Christ comes back to wake us and raise us from the grave
So who is ignorant here??? You call me ignorant yet you quote scripture that actually proves that we don't go to heaven at the point of death and will not go to heaven until the day that Christ raises us from the grave.
I would suggest that you do a little more research and know what you are talking about before you call someone ignorant and assume that you are correct and thereby making yourself look very foolish in doing so.
And still yet you have provided no scripture that tells us that we go to heaven as soon as we die.

You do realize that "sleeping" or "resting" refers to those in Hades awaiting Christ to free them, right?

 

[PlainWord]

interesting. Jesus is to sneak into town? On thing that is not consider here is it is not happy time in the Seven years following the " Rapture" The pre-tribulational rapture has Scriptural support. Let us briefly note the promise of return (John 14), the picture of His return (1 Thess. 4:13–18) and the proof of His return (Rev. 3:10). When in John 14, Christ promised to return for his own, it was to take them to the Father’s House. . And if there is no Rapture God is going to protect HIS people while pouring out Judgement on the earth. To scoff and mock
saying " The Jesus Ball" is one of the most unbiblical things I have heard said to make a point. The context of " As a thief" is not same coming "of a thief". The meaning is the event will come when you least expect it. The Bible says in Matthew 24 where Jesus is speaking they will be partying as it were in the days of Noah all the way up until the entered the Ark. This jesuit Futurism is more about the denial of " Last days " than anything it seems. This is a "Amazing Facts" position of the SDA.

The pre-tribulational rapture has Scriptural support. Let us briefly note the promise of return (John 14), the picture of His return (1 Thess. 4:13–18) and the proof of His return (Rev. 3:10). When in John 14, Christ promised to return for his own, it was to take them to the Father’s House. If believers must endure the judgments of the Tribulation, they would meet Him in the air at the second advent and immediately return with Him to earth. In the post-tribulational scheme of things, we would never inhabit the dwelling places in the Father’s House as promised, and, worse by far, Jesus would be guilty of telling a lie.

In 1 Thess. 4:13–18, the Apostle Paul gives a graphic portrayal of the sequence of events at the rapture. At the return of Christ there is the resurrection of the dead, the rapture of the living, the reunion with the Lord and our loved ones in the air, followed by Paul’s blessed reassurance, And so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words, (1 Thess. 4:17b–18). Were believers destined to endure the Tribulation, Paul should have said, Wherefore scare ye one another with these words. Instead, he assures the Thessalonians again, as he has done earlier, that God has not appointed them unto the wrath of the Tribulation but unto salvation (1 Thess. 5:9, 1:10 ; (Romans 5:9).

Perhaps the best proof text for the pre-tribulational rapture position is found in Revelation 3:10: Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. It should be noted that the church is not promised protection in or during the hour of trial, but protection out of it. The Tribulation saints are not promised exemption from suffering (Rev. 6:9–11; 7:9–14; 14:1–3; 15:1–3).

The pre-tribulational rapture has Scriptural support. Let us briefly note the promise of return (John 14), the picture of His return (1 Thess. 4:13–18) and the proof of His return (Rev. 3:10). When in John 14, Christ promised to return for his own, it was to take them to the Father’s House.

What would be the state of those disciples in John 14 when Christ returns, are they dead or alive?

Wherefore comfort one another with these words, (1 Thess. 4:17b–18). Were believers destined to endure the Tribulation, Paul should have said, Wherefore scare ye one another with these words. Instead, he assures the Thessalonians again, as he has done earlier, that God has not appointed them unto the wrath of the Tribulation but unto salvation (1 Thess. 5:9, 1:10 ; (Romans 5:9).

Glad you recognized Paul's words of comfort to the Thessalonians as being directed to them since they were suffering persecution from the wicked disbelieving Jews in their town (Acts 17). Notice Paul makes another promise in his second letter.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day...

Perhaps you can explain to us how God repaid those who were troubling the early Thessalonian Church? How and when was the vengeance taken on them?

Perhaps the best proof text for the pre-tribulational rapture position is found in Revelation 3:10: Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. It should be noted that the church is not promised protection in or during the hour of trial, but protection out of it.

I agree the early church did not endure the great tribulation (siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD) as they were taken by divine intervention to Pella as taught by several early church leaders. I sense that you think there is another great tribulation coming at the end of our age as well? Do you have support for this view? Because in Luke 21, he defines the trigger to flee as armies surrounding Jerusalem. In all three passages they are told to flee Judea. No other place was told to flee.

 

[CS1]

What would be the state of those disciples in John 14 when Christ returns, are they dead or alive?



Glad you recognized Paul's words of comfort to the Thessalonians as being directed to them since they were suffering persecution from the wicked disbelieving Jews in their town (Acts 17). Notice Paul makes another promise in his second letter.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day...

Perhaps you can explain to us how God repaid those who were troubling the early Thessalonian Church? How and when was the vengeance taken on them?



I agree the early church did not endure the great tribulation (siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD) as they were taken by divine intervention to Pella as taught by several early church leaders. I sense that you think there is another great tribulation coming at the end of our age as well? Do you have support for this view? Because in Luke 21, he defines the trigger to flee as armies surrounding Jerusalem. In all three passages they are told to flee Judea. No other place was told to flee.

I guess maybe you think we have to be here to have those who troubled us repay? Is God going have them cut US a check? Or do you think we have to see it? What about those who were already Killed for the Gospel? Did Peter and Paul see the reward of the wicked? Did they saints who have died in persecution in Iraq , China, India , and other parts of the world? Did they see, the payment of the trouble they got? Human reasoning is not the ways of God. The point you are making is valid, but you have to deal with those who have died already too.

You perhaps, can explain to us how God repaid those who were killed or dead already and were troubled with the early Thessalonians Church?

 

[soberxp]

Rapture
There is no such thing.
Why should you be mentioned to heaven in your lifetime
If you're on earth trying to have a baby with your wife,
If your child is just born, and don't have faith

 

[Absolutely]

Now you are showing just how ignorant you really are. Christ is our perfect example for any and all aspects of life of our walk with him even in death even as He did we will go to Paradise/Bosom of Abraham and will be raised from the grave By God/Christ.
I would say that your statement is bordering on Blasphemy.

I believe he is pauline only.

They minimize or completely nullify Jesus words as well as peter and john. Pauline only.
They are also cessationist.

They say those I mentioned preach a false gospel...Jesus mission failed and paul was brought in to begin the new gospel basically.

Yes it is heretical

 

[PlainWord]

I guess maybe you think we have to be here to have those who troubled us repay? Is God going have them cut US a check? Or do you think we have to see it? What about those who were already Killed for the Gospel? Did Peter and Paul see the reward of the wicked? Did they saints who have died in persecution in Iraq , China, India , and other parts of the world? Did they see, the payment of the trouble they got? Human reasoning is not the ways of God. The point you are making is valid, but you have to deal with those who have died already too.

You perhaps, can explain to us how God repaid those who were killed or dead already and were troubled with the early Thessalonians Church?

No, we aren't the troubled ones, the Thessalonians of the first century were the troubled ones. Thus, those persecuting them were to get "repaid" were they not? If this rest was not for the Thessalonians and is instead for us, then Paul had nothing comforting to tell them, correct? They would continue to suffer and die at the hands of their persecutors. They would suffered in vain and those responsible got away with it. You see, I don't believe we are to receive the rest promised to the persecuted Church. I believe they got their rest and here's how.

From 66-70 AD while the zealots were rebelling against Rome, most of the devout Jews living throughout the Roman Empire would return to Jerusalem for the three mandated feast, Pentecost, Tabernacles and Passover. Once inside, they were not allowed out of the city. The population of Jerusalem swelled 5 fold just as it did in Acts 2. Thus, the Thessalonica church got rest from their troubles because the devote Jews who were persecuting them were gone. Then when the presence (parousia) of the Lord came in 70 AD to burn that wicked city, that perverse and adulterous generation He spoke of, He did so in flaming fire taking vengeance in fulfillment of 2 Thes 1.

The presence of the Lord AKA, "Day of the Lord' is often found in the OT to describe the invasion of a foreign army against the subject of God's wrath. We see this 4 times in the OT when Egypt, Edom, Babylon and Jerusalem of the 6th century BC fell. Since we are specifically told God was presence returned those 4 times in very similar cosmic disturbance language ( sun and moon turning dark, etc) should we not expect His presence when Jerusalem at last fell in 70 AD? I would be shocked if He wasn't there. After all, Christ said repeatedly that He would return to that generation and some standing there listening to Him would still be alive. I accept Him at His Word.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Rapture. There is no such thing.

People should not talk foolishly when they have no clue about something.

 

[CS1]

Rapture
There is no such thing.
Why should you be mentioned to heaven in your lifetime
If you're on earth trying to have a baby with your wife,
If your child is just born, and don't have faith

Again human reasoning to discredit and limit God.

"If you're on earth trying to have a baby with your wife,
If your child is just born, and don't have faith?"

Those who ask that question must think babies go to hell. Absurd.

 

[massorite]

I believe he is pauline only.

They minimize or completely nullify Jesus words as well as peter and john. Pauline only.
They are also cessationist.

They say those I mentioned preach a false gospel...Jesus mission failed and paul was brought in to begin the new gospel basically.

Yes it is heretical

I agree. No matter how many or what any scriptures says they will never back down from their doctrinal beliefs because they are prideful and have invested to much of themselves into a false and antichrist belief.

 

[CS1]

No, we aren't the troubled ones, the Thessalonians of the first century were the troubled ones. Thus, those persecuting them were to get "repaid" were they not? If this rest was not for the Thessalonians and is instead for us, then Paul had nothing comforting to tell them, correct? They would continue to suffer and die at the hands of their persecutors. They would suffered in vain and those responsible got away with it. You see, I don't believe we are to receive the rest promised to the persecuted Church. I believe they got their rest and here's how.

From 66-70 AD while the zealots were rebelling against Rome, most of the devout Jews living throughout the Roman Empire would return to Jerusalem for the three mandated feast, Pentecost, Tabernacles and Passover. Once inside, they were not allowed out of the city. The population of Jerusalem swelled 5 fold just as it did in Acts 2. Thus, the Thessalonica church got rest from their troubles because the devote Jews who were persecuting them were gone. Then when the presence (parousia) of the Lord came in 70 AD to burn that wicked city, that perverse and adulterous generation He spoke of, He did so in flaming fire taking vengeance in fulfillment of 2 Thes 1.

The presence of the Lord AKA, "Day of the Lord' is often found in the OT to describe the invasion of a foreign army against the subject of God's wrath. We see this 4 times in the OT when Egypt, Edom, Babylon and Jerusalem of the 6th century BC fell. Since we are specifically told God was presence returned those 4 times in very similar cosmic disturbance language ( sun and moon turning dark, etc) should we not expect His presence when Jerusalem at last fell in 70 AD? I would be shocked if He wasn't there. After all, Christ said repeatedly that He would return to that generation and some standing there listening to Him would still be alive. I accept Him at His Word.

Tell that to those who have died in the faith. And You did not explain Peter and Paul who were the troubled ones LOL. You don't believe Jesus when HE said " Upon this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail".

Was Jesus only speaking of the early Church? LOL. You accept HIM at some of HIS word to which you agree with or hold to your line of thinking. The suffered in vain? I guess you think that the preaching Paul did where no one was saved was a waste of time?

Paul preached to Felix, Agrippa, and Ceaser guess what. We have no record of their conversion. Paul had his head taken off and you think he suffered in vain? Paul was victorious in Christ. Paul taught the Thessalonian's Faith and Trust in the Promises of God as They go through their tribulation at that time.
those who have died did not see " Their rest" on this side of heaven. The Presence of the Lord and the day of the Lord have different meanings depending on the context. And FYI Peter and Joel say the same thing yet Peter added something in Acts 2 that maybe you did not see or know in the Greek language

Acts 2:20-37

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Less move into Chapter 3 of ACTS

aFTER pETER AND jOHN HEALED THE LAME MAN pETER BEGAn to teach :

verse 13 of CHAPTER 3

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Some things you may want to consider doing.

1. read Joel and Acts 2 and what did Peter say in chapter two of Acts that was different than what Joel said.
find out what Great and notable day of the Lord is and Restitution of all things is.

 

[oyster67]

That is weird, i thought thief in the night referred to the rapture

Not in this context. Context is so important. After Rapture happens and bad times start up, people are not going to automatically look to Jesus and uphold His timetable that is given to them in His Word. They will still not be ready for Christ's Second Coming...

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?