The Rejection of Obedience

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, you just want to stick words in my mouth and flat ignore what I'm actually saying so you can feel like you're right.

lol. whatever.. Nol. I am trying to explain to you what you are actually saying in hopes you will see it and repent.

It's not even a debate on the topic at this point. You're falsely accusing me of something I'm not actually saying and then arguing against your own misrepresentation instead of responding to my actual position.

You believe obedience is required to be saved correct? Please show me I am wrong. and I will repent.

otherwise. it is you who are falsly accusing me.

I love it when people preach works. then demand we are falsly accusing them of teaching what they actually teach

I've repeatedly said grace is what saves, not obedience. If you continue insisting that I believe something I've explicitly denied over and over, then there's no discussion to be had because you're debating a position you've invented, not the one I've presented. So I'm going to pull out of responding to you. At least debate what I'm actually saying, not what you've decided in your head I'm saying.

You believe faith is what saved, but we are chosen because of our works.. ie, works are required.

you add works to grace, which is a false gospel.

Unless you can explain otherwise. Then your right, the discussion is over. and I am truth in what I said about what you believe

You trying to change the meaning of works so you can deny you teach works is not going to help you. It is what most legalists do.

 

[TMS]

I've said it before but I'll repeat the point.
Satan has strategically employed extremes in both grace and works to lead souls into deception. By pushing individuals to either legalism or lawlessness, he leads people away from the truth.

Balance is not sitting on the fence, balance is not half grace and half works.
The truth is 100% faith in God's grace and 100% works by giving all to God.

100% trust in God's grace and power. And being 100% willing to obey and follow His commands.

Satan often leads people to trust in their own efforts for salvation, a condition frequently described as Pharisaism. This extreme focuses on outward compliance while the heart remains unchanged.

Self-Righteousness: This spirit leads individuals to regard themselves with complacency and their neighbors with contempt. It involves a hard, unsympathetic spirit toward the erring, often leaving the "lost sheep" to perish.

When people seek to be justified by the law, they are actually trying to substitute their own righteousness for God’s righteousness. ....Self righteousness.....
This leads to a life of spiritual lethargy where the "form of godliness" exists without the power of God. 2 Timothy 3:5.

Satan courses hair-splitting rules, traditions and human inventions to push Jesus out of the picture.

On the other side, Satan presents a counterfeit grace that encourages indifference toward God's law. Lawlessness and sin.

Indifference and Lawlessness is not God's plan for us. Thousands mistake freedom in Christ for lawlessness, declaring that because Christ came to release us from condemnation, the law itself is done away. Making sin acceptable.

Satan will use emotionalism over Principle and cause people to base their claims to holiness entirely on emotions and feelings rather than the work of grace on the heart, or truth and principle.

Presumption is a big problem today like the past. The great truth of our entire dependence on Christ for salvation is often twisted into the error of presumption, where individuals believe they are secure while disregarding direct commands from God.

Using the error of presumption, satan has caused thousands to confuse lawlessness and Christ releasing us from the condemnation of the law. People declare that the law itself is done away, and that those who keep it are fallen from grace. But Jesus never died to give us freedom to sin.

Change comes by grace,
Faith and Works go hand in hand with each other. They should not be seperated. Take up the cross of Jesus and you will find peace.

Forgiveness is not just a book transaction; Christ takes away the sin and leaves His righteousness there, producing a vital change in the person.

True religion is a radical change in us that avoids these dangerous extremes.
It is the grace of Christ in the heart that results in a new heart.

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[PennEd]

If you have the Holy Spirit, you WILL obey God and will not go on sinning just as the Bible says

Depends on what your definition of “go on sinning” is.
If we’re talking about unrepentant sin, and an attitude that it either isn’t sin, or is sin that isn’t that bad, then I would agree with you.

But because we still inhabit our dead flesh, and are not fully sanctified with our new resurrected bodies, we still sin.

We hate it, we confess it, we accept the Father’s sometimes even harsh discipline, and hopefully we continue being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

I hope you are not one of those that think they don’t ever sin anymore.

 

[Delvianna]

lol. whatever.. Nol. I am trying to explain to you what you are actually saying in hopes you will see it and repent.

You believe obedience is required to be saved correct? Please show me I am wrong. and I will repent.

otherwise. it is you who are falsly accusing me.

I love it when people preach works. then demand we are falsly accusing them of teaching what they actually teach

You believe faith is what saved, but we are chosen because of our works.. ie, works are required.

you add works to grace, which is a false gospel.

Unless you can explain otherwise. Then your right, the discussion is over. and I am truth in what I said about what you believe

You trying to change the meaning of works so you can deny you teach works is not going to help you. It is what most legalists do.

The word "saved" (in your context) as in, what actually gets you to heaven, is grace. If you're about to get hit by a car and Jesus runs out into the road and shoves you aside and gets hit instead, HE "saved" you. Nothing else. IE: Grace is what "saved" (from the penalty of death and separation).

By adding obedience, you're falsely stating I'm adding it to what "saves". I am not. Grace saves you from death. Just like a person is the means by which you don't get hit by a car.

Scripture says, Christ died for everyone. (1 John 2:2). Which means, that a lot of the people he died FOR are not going to heaven. Don't conflate the word "saved" because otherwise if you do, you would have to say every single person born that Jesus died for is "saved" IE: going to heaven.

You're mixing and conflating words outside their definitions which is why I'm arguing with you about why your attribution of what I'm saying is incorrect.

So because Christ died for everyone but not everyone is getting to heaven, then you have to say there is another category or parameter missing here as to what gets you to heaven since everyone is "saved" by Christ's death (Romans 5:18). So to take the verses that talk about being "saved" is saving from sins while heaven falls into another category and those verses about "saved" cannot and should not be used as an all-encompassing means to get to heaven, otherwise again, you'd be saying every single person ever born is going to heaven.

Now, what gets you to heaven? 3 things

1) Accept that Christ is the means/way that "saved" you from the penalty of sins.
2) Have no gods other than YHWH
3) Repent

Christ said, "“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”"- Mark 1:15.

Wait, you mean there's something else you have to do apart from "belief"?? Yes, Christ said it Himself. The very thing you are arguing against and saying nothing else is added; Repent. To say repentance isn't required is disagreement with Christ's own words.

What does repent mean?

μετανοέω (metanoeō), with the noun μετάνοια (metanoia).

The word is made up of:

• μετά (meta) – after, with, change
• νοέω (noeō) – to think, perceive, understand

Literally, it means "to change one's mind" or "to change one's way of thinking."

However, in biblical usage it means more than merely changing an opinion. It refers to a change of mind that results in a change of direction.
For example:

• Turning from sin to God (Acts 3:19)
• Turning from idols to the living God (1 Thessalonians 1:9)
• Producing a changed life consistent with repentance (Matthew 3:8, Said by John the Baptist)

So to quote Paul: (Romans 6:1-4)

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

How do you live a "new" life, if you're living like your old life which is full of sin? Sin IS lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Which means, if you don't turn from sin, you haven't repented. The one word that is so prevalent throughout the entire bible and the reason why the tribulation period comes in the first place because they didn't repent. (Revelation 9:21)

So by definition, repentance requires you to walk in obedience. Because you couldn't have "changed" if you're still walking in lawlessness. And repentance is what separates the sheeps from goats, which by definition means you're walking in obedience, otherwise you'd need to repent again since your mind wasn't really changed in the first place.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

We hate it, we confess it, we accept the Father’s sometimes even harsh discipline, and hopefully we continue being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

What you don't mention in your post is the power of the Holy Spirit at work in a submitted Christian's life. He is God's solution to make it easy for us to follow Him. Why would you leave that out?

"Hopefully?" It is a SURE THING that a Christian will transform into the likeness of Christ more and more as they continue to submit and abide in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The word "saved" (in your context) as in, what actually gets you to heaven, is grace. If you're about to get hit by a car and Jesus runs out into the road and shoves you aside and gets hit instead, HE "saved" you. Nothing else. IE: Grace is what "saved" (from the penalty of death and separation).

By adding obedience, you're falsely stating I'm adding it to what "saves". I am not. Grace saves you from death. Just like a person is the means by which you don't get hit by a car.

Scripture says, Christ died for everyone. (1 John 2:2). Which means, that a lot of the people he died FOR are not going to heaven. Don't conflate the word "saved" because otherwise if you do, you would have to say every single person born that Jesus died for is "saved" IE: going to heaven.

You're mixing and conflating words outside their definitions which is why I'm arguing with you about why your attribution of what I'm saying is incorrect.

So because Christ died for everyone but not everyone is getting to heaven, then you have to say there is another category or parameter missing here as to what gets you to heaven since everyone is "saved" by Christ's death (Romans 5:18). So to take the verses that talk about being "saved" is saving from sins while heaven falls into another category and those verses about "saved" cannot and should not be used as an all-encompassing means to get to heaven, otherwise again, you'd be saying every single person ever born is going to heaven.

Now, what gets you to heaven? 3 things

1) Accept that Christ is the means/way that "saved" you from the penalty of sins.
2) Have no gods other than YHWH
3) Repent

Christ said, "“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”"- Mark 1:15.

Wait, you mean there's something else you have to do apart from "belief"?? Yes, Christ said it Himself. The very thing you are arguing against and saying nothing else is added; Repent. To say repentance isn't required is disagreement with Christ's own words.

What does repent mean?

μετανοέω (metanoeō), with the noun μετάνοια (metanoia).

The word is made up of:

• μετά (meta) – after, with, change
• νοέω (noeō) – to think, perceive, understand

Literally, it means "to change one's mind" or "to change one's way of thinking."

However, in biblical usage it means more than merely changing an opinion. It refers to a change of mind that results in a change of direction.
For example:

• Turning from sin to God (Acts 3:19)
• Turning from idols to the living God (1 Thessalonians 1:9)
• Producing a changed life consistent with repentance (Matthew 3:8, Said by John the Baptist)

So to quote Paul: (Romans 6:1-4)



How do you live a "new" life, if you're living like your old life which is full of sin? Sin IS lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Which means, if you don't turn from sin, you haven't repented. The one word that is so prevalent throughout the entire bible and the reason why the tribulation period comes in the first place because they didn't repent. (Revelation 9:21)

So by definition, repentance requires you to walk in obedience. Because you couldn't have "changed" if you're still walking in lawlessness. And repentance is what separates the sheeps from goats, which by definition means you're walking in obedience, otherwise you'd need to repent again since your mind wasn't really changed in the first place.

lets put it on the table

if I am saved. can I lose that salvation?

 

[Churchgoer]

lets put it on the table

if I am saved. can I lose that salvation?

I believe one that's truly saved by God, will not lose salvation.

 

[dkontner]

I believe one that's truly saved by God, will not lose salvation.

I agree, but we are tried.

 

[2Christ]

lets put it on the table

if I am saved. can I lose that salvation?

only God and Jesus know if you are saved, it is by Jesus words that we shall be judged, and yes you anybody can lose salvation Jesus words are clear, He left us too many clear verses saying this to be ignored or be misinterpreted.

as for obedience it is essential for salvation here are Jesus own words :
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17 KJV

What Jesus said here pointing to the ten commandments is clear and direct and not opened to any interpretation by anyone. Reject or twist Christs words at your own peril.

 

[Churchgoer]

I agree, but we are tried.

I also believe God is absolutely real, not just doctrines, theologies, but a real everyday present God, who sustains all universe, not just create it and leave it.

 

[dkontner]

Matthew 22​

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[dkontner]

I also believe God is absolutely real, not just doctrines, theologies, but a real everyday present God, who sustains all universe, not just create it and leave it.

100% absolutely and His word is a living, breathing book. We are watching it all play out. I'm never certain what He does and what He let's happen, but it's ALL in His book. I need to get back to finding a place to 'gather' no matter how I feel. Thanks

God bless

Isaiah 34​

16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

 

[dkontner]

Revelation 10​

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

 

[Delvianna]

lets put it on the table

if I am saved. can I lose that salvation?

Only God knows when someone has salvation. Until then, there are warnings about falling away and staying rooted in Christ so you don't wither, die and be tossed into the fire (parable of the vine). In the parable of the vine (John 15:1-17), the word "remain" in Him is used 11 times. If falling away wasn't possible, then why make such a point about it? But again, only God knows if someone has salvation.

Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Which is also why scripture constantly talks about "perseverance/endurance". Stay in Christ, persevere through trials, keep walking in obedience.

Hebrews 10:36

"For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised."

Revelation 14:12

"Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I believe one that's truly saved by God, will not lose salvation.

if they can, they must earn it. this is the gospel of works.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

only God and Jesus know if you are saved, it is by Jesus words that we shall be judged, and yes you anybody can lose salvation Jesus words are clear, He left us too many clear verses saying this to be ignored or be misinterpreted.

then we are saved by works my friend. we must earn our salvation. it is not a gift.

as for obedience it is essential for salvation here are Jesus own words :
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17 KJV

What Jesus said here pointing to the ten commandments is clear and direct and not opened to any interpretation by anyone. Reject or twist Christs words at your own peril.

Yes.. And if you want to have life you have to keep them as required.

the law required perfection. that is what Jesus tried to get the person he said that to to acknowledge, that he has failed.

You are not saved because you obey some commands. because the wage of sin is death.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Matthew 22​

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

we love because he first loved us

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Only God knows when someone has salvation. Until then, there are warnings about falling away and staying rooted in Christ so you don't wither, die and be tossed into the fire (parable of the vine). In the parable of the vine (John 15:1-17), the word "remain" in Him is used 11 times. If falling away wasn't possible, then why make such a point about it? But again, only God knows if someone has salvation.

That passage is about producing fruit. Not being saved.

If you want to produce fruit, you must abide in the vine,

If you do not you will not produce fruit

we are not saved because we produce fruit.

God said I have eternal life.. I will never perish

If I can still persih, then God lied

Philippians 2:12

Which is also why scripture constantly talks about "perseverance/endurance". Stay in Christ, persevere through trials, keep walking in obedience.

Hebrews 10:36


Revelation 14:12

that is you trying to save yourself. You have confirmed my thoughts

You are teaching a gospel of work. you must work to abide, remain, persevere etc etc. It is not God saving you, it is you saving yourself

 

[Delvianna]

That passage is about producing fruit. Not being saved.

If you want to produce fruit, you must abide in the vine,

If you do not you will not produce fruit

we are not saved because we produce fruit.

God said I have eternal life.. I will never perish

If I can still persih, then God lied

that is you trying to save yourself. You have confirmed my thoughts

You are teaching a gospel of work. you must work to abide, remain, persevere etc etc. It is not God saving you, it is you saving yourself

So then you reject what Christ said. Then there's nothing more that needs to be said if you want to reject His own words in Mark 1:15. You cannot get to heaven without repentance which is a complete change of mind which is proved by endurance. If you want to reject what Christ said, that's entirely up to you. Good luck, you're going to need it.

 

[2Christ]

then we are saved by works my friend. we must earn our salvation. it is not a gift.

Yes.. And if you want to have life you have to keep them as required.

the law required perfection. that is what Jesus tried to get the person he said that to to acknowledge, that he has failed.

You are not saved because you obey some commands. because the wage of sin is death.

You invent things i never said and twist my words and add to them. You use old twisted doctrine of men that I never spoke about, you just wont listen to what Christ said because you dont want to obey the commandments. I always speak about the Ten COmmandments and not the rest of the law of Moses. The commandments do not require perfection, that is another invention of Men, God knows we stumble and He forgives us but we must at least try and persevere. what is wrong with obedience if its for everyone's good? all the commandments are good and not a burden, it is men who make them so. every time you stop at a red light or at a stop sign you obey mens laws because its the right thing to do. So why cant some people not obey and keep the commandments?

As for obeying the commandments you do it from the heart and not with outward observable obedience like the Pharisees did to be seem of all men. see MAtthew chapter 23 Jesus explains it all.