The Rejection of Obedience

[Everlasting-Grace]

when is eternal life granted and by Who?, please use scripture

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”
john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

it is given when we recieve it in faith. by hearing the word and believing.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You don't seem to understand this concept:

Please do not tell me what I do or do not understand

do you have any humility in you. or do you think you know it all?

Repentance --->> put into the definition of the word includes obedience.

No it does not

to repent means to turn around. it does nto include the word obedience. I am not sure who you heard this from but they are wrong

when we have turned from a point of unbelief to a point of belief, we have repented.

So if repentance is required, and repentance includes obedience inside the definition itself, ergo obedience is required.

Repentance again is a change of mind

If I repent and in faith believe,, they by that action i will be saved.

if I am saved I will be made a new creature

as that new creature, I will (not might) obey

hoever I will not obey perfectly I need to grow

To say obedience is not required, is breaking down the definition of repentance and rejecting part of that definition.

To say obedience is required puts us under law not under grace.

Law tells us what obedience is. (or at least it leads us to that point) It proves we are not onedience by exposing our sin to prove we have sined..

Either accept the word or don't, there is no in-between.

I accept the word. just not your interpretation of it

again, please show some humility.

 

[Delvianna]

Please do not tell me what I do or do not understand

do you have any humility in you. or do you think you know it all?

This is getting insufferable. Did you not read the word "seem"? You don't SEEM to understand... I'm free to make observations and that has nothing to do with you attacking me with a non-humility claim. Just as you have made statements against me. So let's not be a hypocrite shall we?

No it does not

to repent means to turn around. it does nto include the word obedience. I am not sure who you heard this from but they are wrong

when we have turned from a point of unbelief to a point of belief, we have repented.

Post 424. I broke down the greek. So you are wrong.

again, please show some humility.

again, don't be a hypocrite.

Then you have never been saved, because you have never had faith

Comes to mind of what you said to me which shows you were the first to make statements against me. So practice what you preach before you start throwing accusations at others.

 

[Delvianna]

Please do not tell me what I do or do not understand

do you have any humility in you. or do you think you know it all?

No it does not

to repent means to turn around. it does nto include the word obedience. I am not sure who you heard this from but they are wrong

when we have turned from a point of unbelief to a point of belief, we have repented.



Repentance again is a change of mind

If I repent and in faith believe,, they by that action i will be saved.

if I am saved I will be made a new creature

as that new creature, I will (not might) obey

hoever I will not obey perfectly I need to grow

To say obedience is required puts us under law not under grace.

Law tells us what obedience is. (or at least it leads us to that point) It proves we are not onedience by exposing our sin to prove we have sined..

I accept the word. just not your interpretation of it

again, please show some humility.

And the thing is, thinking you aren't understanding something isn't inherently arrogant anyway even if I left out the word "seems". Since you're easily offended and getting all worked up, I'm just going to drop this conversation. I can do without the accusations. Good luck to you.

 

[2Christ]

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”
john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

it is given when we recieve it in faith. by hearing the word and believing.

Thank you for the verses. I know them well and I agree, Jesus clearly said that the believer has eternal life. The question is not whether eternal life is given through faith. Jesus plainly says it is. The question is when that life is fully received and made complete.

Jesus said:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. (John 5:24, ASV)

So yes, eternal life is possessed now by the believer through faith. But Jesus also repeatedly connects eternal life with a future event:

For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40, ASV)

Jesus does not say, "I have already raised him." He says, "I will raise him up at the last day."

This is why we must keep both truths together. Eternal life is given now through faith as God's promise, but its full fulfillment comes at the resurrection.

Jesus gives us the same pattern with the Kingdom: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32, ASV)

Yet at the judgment He says: Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matthew 25:34, ASV)

The Kingdom is promised now, but it is inherited when Christ returns. Eternal life follows the same pattern.

And we cannot ignore Jesus' warnings: But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13, ASV)

And: Abide in me, and I in you... If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered. (John 15:4, 6, ASV)

Therefore, there is no contradiction:

We have eternal life now through faith in Christ, because Jesus has promised it. We must remain in Him and endure to the end. Then, at the resurrection on the last day, Jesus will raise His faithful followers and bring that promise to its complete fulfillment.

That is not denying the present possession of eternal life. It is taking all of Jesus' words together, including His promise of eternal life now and His promise to raise His followers at the last day.

 

[2Christ]

I was sealed the second He granted me repentance. I was there. Ye must be born again

Matthew 3​

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ephesians 1​

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hello dkontner, were certainly calld and if you repented that is great, it is true that the Holy spirit is now given to the believers, but why did Jesus speak of perseverance to the end? many think that once saved always saved do you believe this? if so why did Jesus always speak or perseverance? ill tell you now, we are tested to see who we truly love , God the almighty or this world? not an easy thing since we do live in it and could be influenced by what goes around us, but I tell you this, Keep all your energies following Christ, his words are eternal life and it is not easy to follow him but we should not be discouraged and do everything he asked us to do. Do you believe this?

Blessings.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Of course it’s the Holy Spirit that works in us to transform us into the likeness of Christ.

There, you admit YOU KNOW IT. Now you REALLY have no excuse.

John 9:41 "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

Obedience is through the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit would NEVER say, "Don't obey God" like what your group is saying. God also has a criteria for giving His Holy Spirit. He will not give Him to those who refuse to obey God and treat His commands as optional.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

John 14:26 "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

If you don't obey God and are promoting that we shouldn't obey God because that is the work of the flesh and won't get saved, you have to ask yourself if you have the Holy Spirit or not.

I really don't care if you accuse me of being a heretic. The Pharisees accused Jesus too. It's not like either of us are condemned by God the Father for obeying Him in the Holy Spirit.

 

[PennEd]

There, you admit YOU KNOW IT. Now you REALLY have no excuse.

John 9:41 "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

Obedience is through the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit would NEVER say, "Don't obey God" like what your group is saying. God also has a criteria for giving His Holy Spirit. He will not give Him to those who refuse to obey God and treat His commands as optional.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

John 14:26 "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

If you don't obey God and are promoting that we shouldn't obey God because that is the work of the flesh and won't get saved, you have to ask yourself if you have the Holy Spirit or not.

I really don't care if you accuse me of being a heretic. The Pharisees accused Jesus too. It's not like either of us are condemned by God the Father for obeying Him in the Holy Spirit.

So. You ARE a sinless perfectionist!

You lower God’s perfect standard, by thinking He grades on a curve, or you redefine what sin is.

Very bad.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

So. You ARE a sinless perfectionist!

You lower God’s perfect standard, by thinking He grades on a curve, or you redefine what sin is.

Very bad.

Who cares about your accusations? I don't. Neither did Jesus when the Pharisees accused Him as "very bad".

God isn't going to send me to hell because of your false accusations. He's actually pleased that some people actually made Him their Lord and obey Him.

You just don't want to obey God, that's on you. A person who doesn't want to obey God doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

A person who has the Holy Spirit obeys God and belongs to Him. Think about that.

 

[PennEd]

Who cares about your accusations? I don't. Neither did Jesus when the Pharisees accused Him as "very bad".

God isn't going to send me to hell because of your false accusations. He's actually pleased that some people actually made Him their Lord and obey Him.

You just don't want to obey God, that's on you. A person who doesn't want to obey God doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

A person who has the Holy Spirit obeys God and belongs to Him. Think about that.

What accusation? I asked if you still sin. You refuse to answer.

Why?

So I’ll try again.

Do you ever still sin?

 

[Delvianna]

So. You ARE a sinless perfectionist!

Is an accusation. That wasn't a question.

You lower God’s perfect standard, by thinking He grades on a curve, or you redefine what sin is.

Another accusation. Wasn't a question.

Very bad.

Your conclusion.

God actually does grade on a curve, if He didn't, then Jesus wouldn't have been needed. So to make that statement like it's derogatory, is actually attacking your own belief. Because either God requires perfection for heaven, or He doesn't. Clearly, He doesn't (because Jesus). That doesn't negate the fact though that He does require the pursuit of obedience. You cannot have sanctification or refinement without walking in obedience. You cannot be a different person than who you were before, without obedience. And just like the Jews were walking in obedience while God's spirit dwelled in the Temple, when they became disobedient, God's spirit left. Same concept when Paul likens us to being a Temple. God cannot dwell in a house full of sin and disobedience. God also gave the Jews a ton of leeway before He left, just like He gives us leeway, but obedience will always be something He requires from His children, or they are not His children.

 

[Roger316]

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. - Romans 2:6-8

Again, if you follow in unrighteousness, you are not saved and will be apart of this verse: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." They are calling him Lord, which are people who accept Christ. So not everyone who accepts Christ, then is saved. Which goes back to Romans 2. Christ is the gate, the starting point.


Repentance is turning from unrighteousness which is breaking the law. How can you be saved, which includes repentance, if obedience isn't required? Which then, is all over scripture. You cannot turn from lawlnessness without walking in obedience, which is by definition what you do when you "repent".

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." - Acts 10:42

Christ judges the world, as he judged the Pharisees and found them vipers and white washed tombs (spiritually dead).


You need to re-read Paul again because of Romans that I quoted. Also, 1 John backs up Paul, and Peter and James backs up them both. A works based gospel says works alone gets you to heaven, or that works is the catalyst for salvation, which no one is arguing. Grace saves, but Obedience is how you are chosen. In both instances, that puts God as the means for salvation, and not you. So you cannot "earn" your way. Doing works without God is "earning" your way. Doing works because of God (your love for God), is how you are chosen.

Works or obedience without Christ = Unsaved
Christ without obedience = unsaved
Christ with partial obedience = still unsaved (luke-warm)
Christ WITH obedience = saved

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Good fruit = righteousness, bad fruit = lawlessness.

I think your insight is good, and so I am writing to encourage you to keep up the good work you are doing. We are followers of Christ, and so logically, we are living according to our master's teaching. At times, we must forgive each other for being trapped by our creeds or slogans. "We are saved by grace not by works" is one of those slogans but it lacks the nuances of what our Master has taught us.

We don’t see our behavior as earning God’s favor in any way. Yet our actions do serve as visible markers of those who belong to Christ. Our works aren’t prerequisites for being chosen; they are the evidence of that chosenness—the way our lives manifest what God has already done.

Good work.

 

[PennEd]

Is an accusation. That wasn't a question.

Another accusation. Wasn't a question.

Your conclusion.

God actually does grade on a curve, if He didn't, then Jesus wouldn't have been needed. So to make that statement like it's derogatory, is actually attacking your own belief. Because either God requires perfection for heaven, or He doesn't. Clearly, He doesn't (because Jesus). That doesn't negate the fact though that He does require the pursuit of obedience. You cannot have sanctification or refinement without walking in obedience. You cannot be a different person than who you were before, without obedience. And just like the Jews were walking in obedience while God's spirit dwelled in the Temple, when they became disobedient, God's spirit left. Same concept when Paul likens us to being a Temple. God cannot dwell in a house full of sin and disobedience. God also gave the Jews a ton of leeway before He left, just like He gives us leeway, but obedience will always be something He requires from His children, or they are not His children.

Unbelievable!
You actually believe God grades sin on a curve!

God demands perfection. No one is perfect, even after regeneration, except Jesus.

We are constantly being sanctified, by the Holy Spirit, to become more and more like Christ.

But we will not achieve that perfection until we are in our glorified bodies.

I find it interesting that the same people that think God will toss His children into the Lake of fire, by rescinding their salvation, because of something they did or didn’t do, are the same people that think they never sin, ever anymore.

The reason is apparent to me. Once you admit you still sin. You have to admit that you can never know if that last sin was the one that caused you to lose what Jesus has paid for.

Therefore you ease your mind into thinking that “God grades on a curve”. So those little sins don’t really count!

Incredibly sad.

 

[Delvianna]

Unbelievable!
You actually believe God grades sin on a curve!

God demands perfection. No one is perfect, even after regeneration, except Jesus.

We are constantly being sanctified, by the Holy Spirit, to become more and more like Christ.

But we will not achieve that perfection until we are in our glorified bodies.

I find it interesting that the same people that think God will toss His children into the Lake of fire, by rescinding their salvation, because of something they did or didn’t do, are the same people that think they never sin, ever anymore.

The reason is apparent to me. Once you admit you still sin. You have to admit that you can never know if that last sin was the one that caused you to lose what Jesus has paid for.

Therefore you ease your mind into thinking that “God grades on a curve”. So those little sins don’t really count!

Incredibly sad.

If God demands perfection, and doesn't grade on a curve, then no one is getting into heaven and I guess whatever Jesus did, it wasn't to save us. See how that goes?

What's really sad is that you don't love God enough to actually obey Him.

 

[PennEd]

If God demands perfection, and doesn't grade on a curve, then no one is getting into heaven and I guess whatever Jesus did, it wasn't to save us. See how that goes?

What's really sad is that you don't love God enough to actually obey Him.

God grades all His Children through the lens of His Son Jesus! Who IS perfect.

Cmon. This is basic Christian doctrine.

1 John 1:8

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



This is NOT a license to sin, just an admission that we are NOT perfected, but are deemed perfect through Jesus’s sacrifice.

Do you still ever sin, or are you a liar?

​

 

[Delvianna]

God grades all His Children through the lens of His Son Jesus! Who IS perfect.

Cmon. This is basic Christian doctrine.

1 John 1:8​

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8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

​

​

​

This is NOT a license to sin, just an admission that we are NOT perfected, but are deemed perfect through Jesus’s sacrifice.​

​

Do you still ever sin, or are you a liar?​

​

​

It's definitely false Christian doctrine alright. So if this isn't "a license to sin" then you should be obedient in all you do, correct? And you're still pendulum swinging while ignoring the statements I've made because its the only way you can ignore what I'm saying and feel like you have an argument. No one is claiming they are perfect. Stop using that as an argument. You're literally making a statement that no one is even making. It's like, we're all over here talking about TV's and you want to accuse us of talking about toasters. That's literally how this comes off.

 

[PennEd]

So if this isn't "a license to sin" then you should be obedient in all you do, correct?

This is what is called “ building a strawman “. Look it up if you don’t know what it means.

You have over 13 years of posts from me to sift through. I defy you to find EVEN one where I say we shouldn’t obey Jesus.

like, we're all over here talking about TV's and you want to accuse us of talking about toasters. That's literally how this comes off.

Conversations move and flow, I can choose whatever I want to address on someone’s post.

YOU interjected yourself on THIS subject, sinless perfection, I was having with someone else.’
I literally grabbed YOUR quote that “God grades on curve” to underscore not only the bad doctrine of sinless perfection, but how it relates to the erroneous belief of losing your salvation.

No one is claiming they are perfect.

This is again a twisting of what I said. The perfection being talked about is in regards to sin, and whether or not you ever still commit any. I still haven’t heard the answer on that.

 

[DavidLamb]

Is an accusation. That wasn't a question.

Another accusation. Wasn't a question.

Your conclusion.

God actually does grade on a curve, if He didn't, then Jesus wouldn't have been needed. So to make that statement like it's derogatory, is actually attacking your own belief. Because either God requires perfection for heaven, or He doesn't. Clearly, He doesn't (because Jesus). That doesn't negate the fact though that He does require the pursuit of obedience. You cannot have sanctification or refinement without walking in obedience. You cannot be a different person than who you were before, without obedience. And just like the Jews were walking in obedience while God's spirit dwelled in the Temple, when they became disobedient, God's spirit left. Same concept when Paul likens us to being a Temple. God cannot dwell in a house full of sin and disobedience. God also gave the Jews a ton of leeway before He left, just like He gives us leeway, but obedience will always be something He requires from His children, or they are not His children.

So there is no curve. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners. The only way we can gain access to heaven is by having9 a sinless Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. A sinner either has his/her sins dealt with and forgiven by the Saviour, or not. There is no curve between "unsaved sinner" and "saved sinner."

I agree that saved sinners, Christians, are to pursue holiness.

 

[DavidLamb]

If God demands perfection, and doesn't grade on a curve, then no one is getting into heaven and I guess whatever Jesus did, it wasn't to save us. See how that goes?

What's really sad is that you don't love God enough to actually obey Him.

No, if Jesus Christ is our Saviour, we go to heaven because of His perfect righteousness, not our own. Of course we should obey God, but we will never do so perfectly in this life. Which one of us would dare claim to fulfil these words of Jesus:

NKJV Mrk 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' This is the first commandment.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

If God demands perfection, and doesn't grade on a curve, then no one is getting into heaven and I guess whatever Jesus did, it wasn't to save us. See how that goes?

What's really sad is that you don't love God enough to actually obey Him.

It's true and it is heartbreaking to see. They want His salvation, but not Him as their Lord.