The Rejection of Obedience

[Soyeong]

Where? let's talk about the passages. And why do you think I got it wrong?

Let me put a finer point on it. When we discover a truth that makes us uncomfortable, good exegesis doesn’t suddenly become optional. Either Jesus was speaking to a Jew under the Mosaic covenant or He wasn’t—and He was. That historical fact must shape how we interpret His words. As responsible readers of Scripture, we are obligated to account for the covenantal identity of the person Jesus is addressing; otherwise, we risk lifting His statements out of their original context and importing meanings that were never intended.

Agreed.

I agree—Jesus was a light to the Gentiles as well. But we shouldn’t forget that Jesus commissioned Paul to bring that light to the Gentiles by announcing that God would forgive them if they repented and sought His mercy. Paul is explicit and unambiguous: salvation comes by faith apart from the Law, not through Torah observance or covenantal works.

There are many examples in the Bible of people having forgiveness based on repentance, such as with 1 Kings 8:46-50.

It is important to recognize that Paul can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for the reasons that God commanded them. We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works or with the acts of faith listed in Hebrews 11, so it is not salvation comes apart from the Torah but that it comes from obedience to the the Torah apart from obedience to the Torah done in order to earn it as the result.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it it and the position that Gentiles are not required to obey it is also the position that Gentiles do not need salvation from sin. Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits, so everything that God's covenants teach us about sin is eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

So while Jesus’ ministry radiated outward to the nations, the content of the gospel delivered to the Gentiles was not a continuation of Mosaic obligation but the proclamation of faith in Christ as the sole means of justification. In that sense, the “light” Jesus brings to the Gentiles is not the Law but the revelation that God saves them through faith in Christ alone.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his Jewish followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and in Matthew 28:16-20, so he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them. The Torah is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so it is contradictory to have faith in one alone instead of the other.

At this point it’s worth saying something positive about the Ten Commandments. Even though our discussion has focused on covenantal obedience, the commandments themselves still matter—not because Christians are bound to the Mosaic covenant, but because they reveal and frame the moral mind of God. They express what God considers good, right, and fitting for His creatures. It would never be acceptable to worship another god, bear false witness, or dishonor parents, not because we are under Sinai, but because these commands disclose God’s own moral character. The Decalogue remains morally instructive precisely because it reflects who God is, and obedience to it aligns us with His nature rather than with a particular covenantal administration.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has the character traits that the 613 laws of the Torah were given to teach us how to embody and morality is the position that we are obligated to embody God's character traits, so all of the 613 laws of the Torah reveal and frame the moral mind of God. To teach that only 612 of the laws of the Torah should be followed is to teach to follow a different god who does not have the character trait that that 1 law was given in order to teach us how to embody, which is why Deuteronomy 12:32 prohibits adding to or subtracting from the Torah and why Deuteronomy 13 associates false prophets who speak against obeying the Torah with those who teach to follow other gods. There is also the issue of whether someone who teaches to follow only 612 laws is following a different god or whether they just have an incomplete understanding of the frame of the moral mind of the one true God.

 

[biblestudent78]

It’s like obeying the law of gravity. If you obey it, you get the benefits

Burn1986:
Obeying the law of gravity is not possible. It also has as many negatives as positives.

 

[Roger316]

How are you going to do that? How are you going to become 'godlike', that is what you are actually saying whether you know it or not.

The ceremonial law was all about understanding the fact that God is holy....meaning separate and not like the human beings He gave the law to.

So, be like God and separate yourself to Him. The line between actually understanding this and confusing what holy is, is a thin one but the difference is vast and the reason we continue to have these threads where people argue over being holy by being 'good' or thinking Jesus told everyone to obey the commandments when He was not speaking to everyone.

Things changed after the resurrection but people seem to want to play a part in their own salvation. You cannot.

That isn't true.

The saints—the consecrated ones—always participate in their salvation. Their participation is never meritorious, of course. Nothing they do earns salvation, contributes to salvation, or supplements the finished work of Christ. But the absence of merit does not imply the absence of activity. To be consecrated is not merely a status; it is an existential reality, a Spirit‑created mode of life. Those whom God has set apart act like set‑apart people. The child of God loves God, loves his brother, loves his neighbor, and even loves his enemy. He seeks first the kingdom of God. He mourns. He prays that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He forgives others. These actions are not attempts to qualify for salvation; they are the visible outworking of the indwelling Spirit who consecrates, guides, and transforms. A consecrated individual acts appropriately—not to earn anything, but because the Spirit has made him into the kind of person who does these things. In Paul’s theology, this Spirit‑formed obedience is the marker of those whom God is saving.

 

[Soyeong]

Jeremiah 31:31–34 is hard for people to grasp because it challenges a widely held assumption that the passage addresses only one issue. In reality, Jeremiah is dealing with two distinct but related promises: the transformation of the Jewish heart and the forgiveness of sins. When I look at the New Testament—both the gospels and the epistles—it becomes obvious that the New Covenant Christ inaugurates is consistently defined as the forgiveness of sins through His cross, and that forgiveness is offered to both Jews and Greeks alike. But very little is said about the first aspect of Jeremiah’s prophecy: the inner transformation of the Jewish people. That part of the promise is still future and still tied to Israel’s covenant identity. So when people collapse Jeremiah 31 into a single theme, they unintentionally blur the distinction between what Christ has already accomplished for all nations and what God has promised specifically for Israel’s internal renewal.

Forgiveness has always been through faith in Christ. The New Covenant is only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31), so it is only through becoming joined to Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Torah, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer stranger or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Torah.

I hear what you’re saying, but I think we need to be careful not to collapse two different categories into one. Yes, the command to “be holy as He is holy” surrounds that particular law in Leviticus, and yes, the New Testament calls both Jews and Gentiles to holiness. But holiness in Scripture is not defined by every instruction God gave Israel under the Mosaic covenant. Holiness is fundamentally about embodying God’s character, not about reproducing Israel’s covenantal code. Under the New Covenant, I’m not arguing that God has ceased to be holy or that His moral vision has changed. What I’m saying is that the way God expresses His holiness through His people differs depending on the covenant they are under. Gentiles are not commanded to keep Israel’s distinct covenantal markers, but they are commanded to embody God’s character—truthfulness, purity, justice, mercy, faithfulness. So the question isn’t, “Has God stopped being holy?” Of course not. The question is, “Which instructions express God’s holiness for those who are not under the Mosaic covenant?” And the New Testament consistently grounds holiness for Gentiles in the character of God revealed in Christ, not in the specific stipulations of Israel’s covenant code.

It might also help to remember that Peter isn’t addressing all Christians in his letter; he’s writing specifically to Jewish believers living abroad. His call to “be holy as He is holy” is directed to people who already understood holiness through the lens of Israel’s covenant identity. So when Peter uses that language, he’s not laying the Mosaic code on Gentile believers—he’s exhorting Jewish Christians to embody God’s character in their scattered communities. That context matters, because it shows that Peter’s appeal to holiness is rooted in Israel’s story, not in a universal requirement to keep every command tied to Israel’s covenant markers.

Holiness is indeed about embodying God's character and everything that God instructed to Israel through the Torah was given in order to teach us how to do that. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us o follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is the character of God revealed in Christ.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The above verses are clearly referring to people who were not part of God's chosen people who are now included among His chosen people, but regardless of whether 1 Peter 1:16 is referring to Jews or Gentiles, there are many other verses that call Gentiles to be holy and what it means for someone to be holy is for them to be a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy.

 

[Dave123]

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20)

The issue of the way to acquire righteousness is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith in Christ apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given in order to describe the behavior of the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of Moses other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous by faith apart form works also upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, we become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our our obedience.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he was a doer of righteous works (Genesis 18:19), and that he believed God, so he obeyed the command to offer Isaac, so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

You did not answer the question. Why did Jesus need to be the Lamb without blemish?

 

[Soyeong]

You did not answer the question. Why did Jesus need to be the Lamb without blemish?

Jesus was required to be without blemish in order to accomplished what he did in Titus 2:14.

 

[pinebeach]

That isn't true.

The saints—the consecrated ones—always participate in their salvation. Their participation is never meritorious, of course. Nothing they do earns salvation, contributes to salvation, or supplements the finished work of Christ. But the absence of merit does not imply the absence of activity. To be consecrated is not merely a status; it is an existential reality, a Spirit‑created mode of life. Those whom God has set apart act like set‑apart people. The child of God loves God, loves his brother, loves his neighbor, and even loves his enemy. He seeks first the kingdom of God. He mourns. He prays that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He forgives others. These actions are not attempts to qualify for salvation; they are the visible outworking of the indwelling Spirit who consecrates, guides, and transforms. A consecrated individual acts appropriately—not to earn anything, but because the Spirit has made him into the kind of person who does these things. In Paul’s theology, this Spirit‑formed obedience is the marker of those whom God is saving.

I think you might be thinking of sanctification. That occurs as we agree with God instead of disagreeing with God.

But here's one for you.

So we know when the law was given, instructions for a Tabernacle that was able to be moved as the Israelites waundered around for 4o years, with the 1st permanent structure being built by Solomon once residency in the 'promised land' was achieved. Was God's presence said to be in that building or even in the Tabernacle? The Holy of Holies? So was it called that because God did not sin or because that Holy of Holies was SEPARATE from the rest of the stuctrue whether moveable or permanent?

Moving along, do those who have accepted Christ carry along a scaled model of that building so they can have the Holy of Holies with them at all times and worship God who resided in the Holy of Holies, so holy in fact, they are afraid to pull back the curtain?

What does the NT tell us? And here is where far too many Christians go catatonic, drool a little and wait for Sunday and the pastor.

WE ARE ...YOU AND I ALL ACTUAL BELIEVERS IN JESUS...ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD! You are holy and I am holy IN Christ and God Himself approved of that and made it so.

YOU are a priest of the Most High and do not need Moses or the Pastor or the elder or someone who spent years in seminary and believe they have the right to sort everyone out.

Did you forget that? Did you forget YOU are the temple of the Most High and that GOD tore the curtain in the first temple from the top to the bottom and said 'come on in. I want you to get acquainted with me. I want you to understand how much I love you and I want you to love me back. Look at my Son, Jesus. He does not condemn you and neither do I.'

So yeah, that is where we are supposed to be as believers and not waundering trying to figure out if we should obey the 10 commandments and worrying about punishment if we slip. Isaiah tells us that Jesus bore the punishment of sin on our behalf so quit thinking you play any part in that because you do not. Your part is to worship in spirit and truth and allow the Holy Spirit to renew your mind as you study scripture in truth and not personal interpretation.

Now tell me what part of what I said is not in scripture.

 

[Soyeong]

Burn1986:
Obeying the law of gravity is not possible. It also has as many negatives as positives.

"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

 

[biblestudent78]

Forgiveness has always been through faith in Christ. The New Covenant is only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31), so it is only through becoming joined to Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of the Torah, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer stranger or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of the Torah.


Holiness is indeed about embodying God's character and everything that God instructed to Israel through the Torah was given in order to teach us how to do that. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us o follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is the character of God revealed in Christ.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The above verses are clearly referring to people who were not part of God's chosen people who are now included among His chosen people, but regardless of whether 1 Peter 1:16 is referring to Jews or Gentiles, there are many other verses that call Gentiles to be holy and what it means for someone to be holy is for them to be a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy.

Soyeong:
I appreciate your passion and the structure of your thinking. Not to quibble, but terms matter. You have mentioned the House of Judah and the House of Israel as if they are the same thing. The House of Israel lasted only about 210 years. It later became Samaria. They too worshipped YAHWEH about as infrequently as did Judah. Both worshipped other gods as well as YAHWEH. Jeremiah once noted that Israel had as many gods as they had towns so it is inaccurate to portray Israel and Judah as keepers of the Covenant (Torah). There is no evidences they did until around 250 BC.

 

[Roger316]

Agreed.


There are many examples in the Bible of people having forgiveness based on repentance, such as with 1 Kings 8:46-50.

It is important to recognize that Paul can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for the reasons that God commanded them. We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works or with the acts of faith listed in Hebrews 11, so it is not salvation comes apart from the Torah but that it comes from obedience to the the Torah apart from obedience to the Torah done in order to earn it as the result.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it it and the position that Gentiles are not required to obey it is also the position that Gentiles do not need salvation from sin. Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits, so everything that God's covenants teach us about sin is eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.


Jesus spent his ministry teaching his Jewish followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and in Matthew 28:16-20, so he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them. The Torah is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so it is contradictory to have faith in one alone instead of the other.


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has the character traits that the 613 laws of the Torah were given to teach us how to embody and morality is the position that we are obligated to embody God's character traits, so all of the 613 laws of the Torah reveal and frame the moral mind of God. To teach that only 612 of the laws of the Torah should be followed is to teach to follow a different god who does not have the character trait that that 1 law was given in order to teach us how to embody, which is why Deuteronomy 12:32 prohibits adding to or subtracting from the Torah and why Deuteronomy 13 associates false prophets who speak against obeying the Torah with those who teach to follow other gods. There is also the issue of whether someone who teaches to follow only 612 laws is following a different god or whether they just have an incomplete understanding of the frame of the moral mind of the one true God.

Do you not see or understand that the 614 apply to the Nation of Israel exclusively because they only make sense inside the Covenant Context? Gentile believers are not obligated to follow those rules because they are not a part of that covenant.

 

[biblestudent78]

Do you not see or understand that the 614 apply to the Nation of Israel exclusively because they only make sense inside the Covenant Context? Gentile believers are not obligated to follow those rules because they are not a part of that covenant.

I have no contention with the metanarrative about the laws of the Torah applying only to Judah. I might note that there was no complete Torah until sometime in the last decade of the 7th century in the last days of King Josiah's reign. From the time the Jews had the complete Torah for about 23 yrs before they were led into captivity.....for not obeying the Torah. Thus talking about a Covenant between God and Judea was short lived. King Josiah tried to put in place the Torah Code found in the recently discovered Deuteronomy revelations, but never got time as he was killed in a foolish attack on an Egyptian army. Then Judah was no more and did not return for 70 years but under Persian control.

 

[Dave123]

The Levitical laws were never for the entire people but only for the priestly class. It was an error by the Jews when they chose to apply them to everyone.

You should google your quote. I think that you'll find it interesting. But I get what you're saying, some of it was specifically for Aarons descendants, the priests, and does not carry over. Leviticus 19:18 for example, does. Love your neighbor as yourself. There were big arguments over who ones neighbor was. That's the reason for the parable of the good Samaritan. Anyways, that same idea is expressed and explained in Romans by Paul on how that positive command summarizes and fulfills the negative command of the Law.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:13-14 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

To your point, Christ's eternal Priesthood replaced the earthly Levitical priesthood. Animal sacrifices end because Jesus offers one final, perfect sacrifice for sin, as Hebrews 10:14 tell us. "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." The curtain in the Temple tears down the middle. The whole OT sacrificial system ended with Jesus' death. We no longer need the priesthood, as believers will have Jesus, the High Priest, living in them in the NT.

Paul spends the entire letter of Galatians telling us that we cannot justify ourselves by our works. What Paul means by "fulfilled" in Galatians 5:13-14 and Romans 13:8-10 is that the law is summarized and currently accomplished through active love, not that a person has achieved sinless perfection to earn justification. Paul argues that Christian freedom is expressed through serving others in love, which captures the ultimate goal and moral intent of the entire law.

On the other hand...

Galatians 3:10-14 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Deuteronomy 27:26)

In fact we are told that one sin pronounces us guilty before God, (James 2:10).

 

[Dave123]

Jesus was required to be without blemish in order to accomplished what he did in Titus 2:14.

Why was He required to be without blemish?

 

[mailmandan]

Dan, You are changing the subject again. My question was simple: Do you believe what Jesus said to follow the Ten Commandments??

I believe what Jesus said, not merely in isolation, but in context. After the rich young ruler went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life, we read on in Matthew 19:23 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Don't be so fixed on salvation by obeying the 10 commandments that you miss the main point.

You say Jesus only answered that way because the man was Jewish and under the Law. But this does not answer the question. Jesus never said His teachings applied only to Jewish people. In fact, the Scriptures show that the Messiah was sent as a Light for all people, including the Gentiles.

The prophet Isaiah spoke of the Messiah:

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness from the prison-house. (Isaiah 42:6-7 ASV)

Yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49:6 ASV)

This prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus:

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples; A light for revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2:30-32 ASV)

Jesus Himself declared:

Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12 ASV)

When Jesus first sent the twelve disciples during His earthly ministry, their mission began with Israel, because the promises were first revealed to them.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6 ASV)

But after His resurrection, Jesus expanded the mission to every nation and commanded His disciples to teach everything He had commanded.

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20 ASV)

Now regarding the rich young ruler, Jesus gave a direct answer to his question:

And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17 ASV)

Jesus did not say, "This only applies to Jews." He answered the question that was asked. The problem with the man was not that Jesus' commandment was wrong, but that the man's heart was not fully surrendered to God. His riches had become more important than following Christ.

As I already explained, the rich young ruler confidently and self-righteously declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up, yet Jesus exposed his heart. Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation and demonstrated that he failed to keep even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37)

When Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, He wasn’t handing out a checklist for salvation. He was holding up a mirror. The Law exposed that man’s heart. “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17) but when the man claimed he had done that, Jesus went straight to his idol. The man walked away sorrowful (Matthew 19:22). Why? Because the Law revealed his sin, but it couldn’t save him. Jesus was showing him his need for a Savior, not teaching salvation by Law-keeping.

You also ask whether Jesus demands sinless perfection. No, Jesus never taught that. I never taught that, Jesus taught repentance, faith, and obedience. He called people to follow Him and do the will of the Father.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 ASV)

I'm glad to hear that you do not promote sinless perfection and those who do are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness, (1 John 1:8-10) which is the pinnacle of legalism.

Jesus also said:

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. (John 14:15 ASV)

The issue is not whether a person can boast of perfect obedience. The issue is whether we believe Jesus enough to follow what He taught.

So Dan, the question remains: Do you accept Jesus' own answer, "If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments," or do you believe His words were only for one Jewish man and not for the nations He later commanded His disciples to teach?

Following what Jesus taught/keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Christ. This is about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk. How do you define--"KEEP" His commandments? You seem to take the words of Jesus, "If though wouldest enter life, keep the commandments," in a rigid literal way without considering the context and his audience, which culminates in salvation by law keeping/justification by the law. Under the new covenant, we are no longer under the law of Moses. The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

 

[Soyeong]

Do you not see or understand that the 614 apply to the Nation of Israel exclusively because they only make sense inside the Covenant Context? Gentile believers are not obligated to follow those rules because they are not a part of that covenant.

There is a reality of what is true about who God is that was true before God made any covenants with man, that has been revealed through God's covenants, and that is true regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. God's character traits are eternal, so the way to know Him through embodying His character traits and to way to sin by doing what is contrary to His character traits has existed from the beginning regardless of when God made covenants that included instructions for how to do that and man would still be obligated to walk in God's way even if God had never made any covenants with man. For example, being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before God made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether anyone keeps it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so man would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that. If anyone has the goal to know God through embodying His character traits, then they will consider any instructions that God has given for how to do that to be eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant they are under, if any.

The children of Abraham were chosen by God to be a blessing to all nations by turning all nations from their wickedness and by bringing to knowledge of Him to the world in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace (Acts 3:25-26), so the blessing of Abraham was never intended to be exclusively for for Israel. It doesn't work for someone to want tor receive the blessing of Abraham while also taking the position that God's instructions for how to receive the blessing of Abraham are exclusively for Israel. If someone wants to receive the blessing of Abraham, then they will follow God's instructions for how to be blessed regardless of which covenant they are under, if any. I would think that anyone who thinks that God's instructions are accurately described in the following verses would jump that the opportunity to get to follow them regardless of whether or not they are obligated to do so:

Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms the he loved the Torah and delighted in obeying it, and the things that we delight in doing we voluntarily choose to do regardless of whether or that we are obligated to do them, but God is sovereign, so we are obligated to walk in His way.

 

[Soyeong]

Why was He required to be without blemish?

1 Peter 1:13-25
Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[b] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

 

[Roger316]

There is a reality of what is true about who God is that was true before God made any covenants with man, that has been revealed through God's covenants, and that is true regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. God's character traits are eternal, so the way to know Him through embodying His character traits and to way to sin by doing what is contrary to His character traits has existed from the beginning regardless of when God made covenants that included instructions for how to do that and man would still be obligated to walk in God's way even if God had never made any covenants with man. For example, being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before God made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether anyone keeps it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so man would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that. If anyone has the goal to know God through embodying His character traits, then they will consider any instructions that God has given for how to do that to be eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant they are under, if any.

The children of Abraham were chosen by God to be a blessing to all nations by turning all nations from their wickedness and by bringing to knowledge of Him to the world in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace (Acts 3:25-26), so the blessing of Abraham was never intended to be exclusively for for Israel. It doesn't work for someone to want tor receive the blessing of Abraham while also taking the position that God's instructions for how to receive the blessing of Abraham are exclusively for Israel. If someone wants to receive the blessing of Abraham, then they will follow God's instructions for how to be blessed regardless of which covenant they are under, if any. I would think that anyone who thinks that God's instructions are accurately described in the following verses would jump that the opportunity to get to follow them regardless of whether or not they are obligated to do so:

Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms the he loved the Torah and delighted in obeying it, and the things that we delight in doing we voluntarily choose to do regardless of whether or that we are obligated to do them, but God is sovereign, so we are obligated to walk in His way.

What is your argument here? That covenantal laws apply even where no covenant exists. This makes no sense to me.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong:
I appreciate your passion and the structure of your thinking. Not to quibble, but terms matter. You have mentioned the House of Judah and the House of Israel as if they are the same thing. The House of Israel lasted only about 210 years. It later became Samaria. They too worshipped YAHWEH about as infrequently as did Judah. Both worshipped other gods as well as YAHWEH. Jeremiah once noted that Israel had as many gods as they had towns so it is inaccurate to portray Israel and Judah as keepers of the Covenant (Torah). There is no evidences they did until around 250 BC.

Thank you. While Israel went through redemption cycles of turning away and back towards God, it is culminating in final redemption. The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37), so there will always be a faithful remnant, which Gentiles are able to join through faith in Christ.

In Hebrews 8:7-9, the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His righteousness or with His instructions for how to embody His righteousness found in the Torah, but rather the fault that God found was with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem was not to do away with the Torah but to do away with what was hindering from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10).

 

[rewriter]

What is your argument here? That covenantal laws apply even where no covenant exists. This makes no sense to me.

Roger, there are multiple covenants in the OT, including one with the gentiles. The Mosaic covenant is not the only one, just one that Jews and Christians like to focus on.

 

[2Christ]

Let me put a finer point on it. Christians who read themselves directly into Jeremiah 31 often fail to give full weight to the fact that Jeremiah is speaking about the Mosaic Law as it existed at the time he wrote. The “Law” that will be written on the heart is not a vague moral ideal or a New‑Covenant ethic shaped around the golden rule; it is the entire Mosaic Torah, including its sacrificial system, priestly structure, and covenantal obligations. The assumption many Christians make is that because Jeremiah is describing the New Covenant, he must also be describing a new kind of “Law”—a simplified, internalized ethic of love. But Jeremiah’s point is not that the Law will be replaced; it is that the same Law will be internalized, obeyed from the heart rather than imposed externally. The mistake comes from importing New‑Covenant categories into an Old‑Covenant prophecy without first honoring the covenantal context in which Jeremiah spoke.

your argument overlooks an important distinction that Scripture itself makes between God's Covenant, which is the Ten Commandments written by God's own finger, and the Law of Moses, which consists of the additional statutes, judgments, ceremonial laws, sacrifices, and priestly regulations written by Moses.

God Himself plainly identifies the Ten Commandments as His covenant.

“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)

Again, Scripture says: So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” (Exodus 34:28, NKJV)

These verses leave no room for doubt. God Himself calls the Ten Commandments His covenant. Therefore, when Jeremiah prophesied of the New Covenant, he was not introducing a different moral law or replacing God's commandments with a vague principle of love. He was describing the same covenant being written where it truly belongs, in the hearts of God's people.

“But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” (Jeremiah 31:33, NKJV)

Scripture also makes a clear distinction between what God wrote and what Moses wrote.
The Ten Commandments, written by God Himself, were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant.

“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.” (Deuteronomy 10:5, NKJV)

By contrast, the Book of the Law written by Moses was placed beside the Ark, not inside it.

“So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: ‘Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.’” (Deuteronomy 31:24-26, NKJV)

This distinction is significant. The covenant written by God was placed inside the Ark as the enduring testimony of His covenant. The book written by Moses was placed beside the Ark as a witness against Israel because it contained the additional regulations that addressed their continued disobedience. @Soyeong

The New Testament also explains why these additional laws existed.

“What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...” (Galatians 3:19, NKJV) @Soyeong

The ceremonial laws, sacrificial system, Levitical priesthood, purification rituals, feast regulations, and other ordinances were added because of transgressions and pointed forward to the coming of Christ. Once Christ fulfilled their purpose, those shadows were no longer necessary. However, the Ten Commandments were never described as something merely added because of transgressions. They were already established as God's covenant before these additional laws were given.

The prophets also declared that the coming Messiah would not be sent only to Israel but would become the Light for the Gentiles as well.

“I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles.” (Isaiah 42:6, NKJV)

“Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’” (Isaiah 49:6, NKJV)

Jesus fulfilled these prophecies when He declared: “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12, NKJV)

After His resurrection, Jesus commissioned His disciples to take His teachings to all nations, not merely to Israel.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...” (Matthew 28:19-20, NKJV)

What, then, did Jesus command concerning God's commandments?

When asked what was required to enter eternal life, Jesus gave a direct and unmistakable answer:

“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17, NKJV) These Ten Commandments are the Covenant

Jesus immediately quoted from the Ten Commandments, showing exactly which commandments He meant.

He also said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV)

And He pointed to His own example: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10, NKJV)

Jesus never taught that God's commandments had been abolished. Instead, He magnified them by teaching that true obedience begins in the heart, exactly as Jeremiah foretold. Anger becomes murder in the heart, lust becomes adultery in the heart, and love for God is demonstrated through willing obedience.

Therefore, the New Covenant is not the replacement of God's covenant with a new moral standard, nor is it merely a simplified ethic centered on love alone. The Bible consistently teaches that God's covenant is the Ten Commandments, written by His own finger, placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, and promised in Jeremiah to be written on the hearts of His people. The Law of Moses contained additional ordinances that were written by Moses, placed beside the Ark, and added because of transgressions until the Messiah came. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial system, but He never abolished the covenant that God Himself declared to be the Ten Commandments. As the promised Light to both Jews and Gentiles, Jesus instructed all nations to keep everything He commanded, and when asked how to enter into life, His answer was simple and clear: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” In this way, the teaching of Jesus perfectly agrees with the promise of Jeremiah that God would write His law upon the hearts of His people so that they would obey Him from within.