The Rejection of Obedience

[GRACE_ambassador]

There’s several more “do’s and don’t do’s” for Christian’s in the first few chapters of Revelations.

This is why people need to read the Bible themselves. There will always be someone to distract you with ‘the easy path’.

Precious friend, then what do you do with the "do's and don't do's" That Christ Gave Paul for
The Body Of Christ, Under Grace?:

Shouldn't we Rightly Divide them as God Commanded in 2 Timothy 2:15 AV - ie:

Prophecy / Law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)
Mystery / Grace

Kinda like this study 'link': I have decided to follow Jesus?, asking the Important question:

Exactly "Which Commands" Are we Supposed to Follow?:

---------
Is this a distraction, or is it not the real reason:

There is So Little Agreement With The Gospel?
Grace And Peace.

 

[Levib]

Precious friend, then what do you do with the "do's and don't do's" That Christ Gave Paul for
The Body Of Christ, Under Grace?:

Shouldn't we Rightly Divide them as God Commanded in 2 Timothy 2:15 AV - ie:

Prophecy / Law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)
Mystery / Grace

Kinda like this study 'link': I have decided to follow Jesus?, asking the Important question:

Exactly "Which Commands" Are we Supposed to Follow?:

---------
Is this a distraction, or is it not the real reason:

There is So Little Agreement With The Gospel?
Grace And Peace.

Well I supposed that’s how you choose to define ‘Faith’. In Hebrews every person recorded as “having faith” also obeyed God.

In Mark 16:16 “Believeth not” is translated to ‘disobey’.

How do you take the advice of James “Be doers and not hearers only” and have no action (or ‘work’ as some like to call it).

James 1:22 KJV
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Why would so many warnings be given if we have zero responsibility to heed them? Why did Jesus tell people to turn from their sin?

One has to intentionally disregard most of the bible to think their actions do not need to change. Even the unsaved/ungodly recognize this is not true.

 

[PennEd]

Keep reading the rest of John. This is not the “whole will of God” or the “only will of God”.

There’s several more “do’s and don’t do’s” for Christian’s in the first few chapters of Revelations.

This is why people need to read the Bible themselves. There will always be someone to distract you with ‘the easy path’.

Yes. By all means. Keep working for your salvation!

SMH

 

[Soyeong]

John 6​

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Just going to address this one point. No sense going round in circles.

The issue of doing the Will of the Father comes up quite often from those that think following the Law will save them.
THIS is what Jesus tells us is the Will of the Father:

John 6:40​

​

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so there is no need to jump to another book in order to figure out that it is the will of the Father for us to know Jesus by being workers of lawfulness. There are many verses that speak about what the will of the Father is and it is straightforward that He has made His will known through what He has commanded, so there is no justification for trying to use John 6:40 to counter Matthew 7:21-23 as if it implies that it is not the will of the Father obey what He has commanded, especially because the Bible frequently connects our belief in the Son with our obedience to what God has commanded. For example, in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so the Bible does not present believing in the Son as being an alternative to obeying God's commandments, but rather obeying God's commandments is the way to believe in the Son.

 

[Soyeong]

Seeing that the Hebrew translation of Adonai Elohim is the LORD God throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament) we know this is the WORD before becoming flesh. And from John chapter 1 we know that the WORD made flesh is Yeshua (Jesus) tells us it was the WORD who wrote the 10 Commandments and gave the 613 Laws.

In 2 places found in the Gospels we have an example of the WORD made flesh (Yeshua-Jesus) explained the 2 greatest Commandments, being a condensed version of the Law, was to love God with all that we are and our Neighbors as ourselves.

The real Commands given were basically to preach the Gospel and make Disciples. But none of that actually is required until you are first already Saved.

So works after Salvation is merely God doing His Works by using us. They count up as Rewards but not as requirements towards Salvation.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

If you from birth could keep the law perfectly. you would never have sinned, having never sinned, you would not need saved.

since Christ is the only one who kept the law from Birth. he is the only one who has fulfilled Gods righteous standard.

its why he died on the cross. as the lamb of God without spot.. for the sin of all mankind..

Exactly, there is no sense in thinking that we are required to have perfect obedience to the Law of God in order to earn our salvation as the result when someone who has perfect obedience would not need salvation. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of earning our salvation in the first place. The reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn it as the result.

You have two ways to heaven

1. Perfect obedience (only Christ met this standard)
2. Grace through faith in the work of christ.

there is no third way.

The Bible never states that we can earn our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given a a way of earning it in the first place, so there is only one way. In Matthew 7:21-23, the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to earn it as the result but because that is the way to know Jesus, which is also the way to have faith in his work..

your preaching works my friend.

You have not kept even the two commands.. Most of us break the first command every day. by chosing to serve self and not God or others.

and most reject that fact that loving our neighbor equals loving even our enemy.. so most of us can not keep this command either.

Look to christ for salvation.. Then use the love God gave you to learn to love him and others.

we love because he first loved us.

The Bible preaches works, such as with Hebrews 5:9, where Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. I have kept them. If anyone breaks any command, then they can repent and can continue to keep it. Christ' is God's Word made flesh, so the way to look for him for salvation is by following his example of embodying God's Word. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.

I am not talking about being blessed

I am talking about being right with God so we enter heaven, and are not cast down to hell..

if we do not have this set in stone.. then being blessed does nto matter

does it help if I am blessed for 50 years. but spend eternity in hell?

Everyone who is blessed by God is right with God and vice versa. The way to be right with God is by following His instruction for how to do that in His law through faith, not by refusing to follow them.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes. By all means. Keep working for your salvation!

SMH

Why would you think people who obey God are not saved?

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."


A consistently obedient Christian is evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in that person's life and shows they belong to God and are saved.

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."


Obedience to God is the natural outcome of salvation.

Galatians 5:16 "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

Romans 8:13-14 "For if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."


Incidentally, these verses also show that a person who claims to be a Christian but won't obey God actually doesn't belong to God.

 

[lrs68]

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

If you mean a doer after being Saved I agree

 

[Soyeong]

If you mean a doer after being Saved I agree

It notably does not say that we will be saved first and the. We will do those works, but fair describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

 

[PennEd]

Why would you think people who obey God are not saved?

You are putting words in my mouth.

Don’t know of any Christians that think we shouldn’t obey God.

The difference is between SHOULD, and MUST.

If the “must” means you must do or not do something aside from believing and trusting in Jesus, then that person is adding to His Sacrifice and trampling the Blood of Christ.

 

[Churchgoer]

Salvation is gift of God. Good work is the result of that gift.

A good apple does not produce the tree. But the tree produces good apples.

 

[Delvianna]

You are putting words in my mouth.

Don’t know of any Christians that think we shouldn’t obey God.

The difference is between SHOULD, and MUST.

If the “must” means you must do or not do something aside from believing and trusting in Jesus, then that person is adding to His Sacrifice and trampling the Blood of Christ.

Literally no one here is arguing that works is what saves. If anyone thinks that, you aren't paying attention. But that also means, we are advocating for "must" but in a nuance way that I don't think you're understanding if you automatically equate it to "adding to His sacrifice".

As a Messianic, the Christian doctrine seriously lacks understanding in how the sacrificial system worked and what the point of it was and how that ties into Christ. The majority of what is being taught, is incorrect. Specifically if you equate to adding works to trampling the Blood of Christ.

Let me be clear... Sacrifices NEVER took away sins. The book of Hebrews backs this up. Please stop perpetuating this lie. To understand what Christ did on the cross, you have to let go of the idea that His death was a ritualistic sacrifice. It wasn't by nature. Which makes the whole thing convoluted and brings you to wrong conclusions if you think it was.

• God's universal law: The wages of sin is death. Sin separates us from the Father. That is the universal problem that had to be dealt with. Look at Lucifer and all the angels that left. Iniquity (sin) was found in him. So if sin is transgression of God's law, then God's law is universally applied, not just strictly towards humans. Revelation 6 shows an altar (where you sacrifice) in heaven. Revelation 9, depicts a golden altar in heaven. Revelation 11 shows there is a temple of God and there is an altar. If the sacrificial system was a means of dealing with sin, why is there an altar and temple in heaven?
• Temple sacrifices: These are offerings (korban literally means "to draw near"). They are gifts brought to God as a means of reconciliation. The sacrifice itself is not what forgives sin, it is a means of drawing near to God and seeking His forgiveness which God automatically promises He will forgive if it's due to sin.
• Christ's death: Christ took upon Himself the universal penalty of sin...death. He satisfied that universal consequence so that we no longer have to bear it ourselves. His death addressed the separation caused by sin, opening the way back to the Father. God's spirit which we had originally when Adam and Eve were created, but left after sin tore us apart (The Holy Spirit). This is why there was a warning that you will die if you eat from the fruit. It wasn't just literal death eventually, it was immediate spiritual death (Being spiritually dead is a concept scripture talks about several times).

So if your deduction is that obedience somehow adds to the sacrifice Christ did, that literally makes no sense considering it was disobedience that put him on the cross in the first place. And only through God's grace are we forgiven of sin. Like Soy said, if we were perfect in the law, we wouldn't have needed Christ but that doesn't mean you trample grace by not striving to do the best you can in obedience. And only those who strive in obedience are called Sons/Daughters of God (1 John 3:7-10, 1 John 2:3-5).

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Literally no one here is arguing that works is what saves.

If you think this. you have not been paying attention.. While they may not believe works are the only thing that saves us. far to many people say works are required

 

[PennEd]

Literally no one here is arguing that works is what saves. If anyone thinks that, you aren't paying attention. But that also means, we are advocating for "must" but in a nuance way that I don't think you're understanding if you automatically equate it to "adding to His sacrifice".

As a Messianic, the Christian doctrine seriously lacks understanding in how the sacrificial system worked and what the point of it was and how that ties into Christ. The majority of what is being taught, is incorrect. Specifically if you equate to adding works to trampling the Blood of Christ.

Let me be clear... Sacrifices NEVER took away sins. The book of Hebrews backs this up. Please stop perpetuating this lie. To understand what Christ did on the cross, you have to let go of the idea that His death was a ritualistic sacrifice. It wasn't by nature. Which makes the whole thing convoluted and brings you to wrong conclusions if you think it was.

• God's universal law: The wages of sin is death. Sin separates us from the Father. That is the universal problem that had to be dealt with. Look at Lucifer and all the angels that left. Iniquity (sin) was found in him. So if sin is transgression of God's law, then God's law is universally applied, not just strictly towards humans. Revelation 6 shows an altar (where you sacrifice) in heaven. Revelation 9, depicts a golden altar in heaven. Revelation 11 shows there is a temple of God and there is an altar. If the sacrificial system was a means of dealing with sin, why is there an altar and temple in heaven?
• Temple sacrifices: These are offerings (korban literally means "to draw near"). They are gifts brought to God as a means of reconciliation. The sacrifice itself is not what forgives sin, it is a means of drawing near to God and seeking His forgiveness which God automatically promises He will forgive if it's due to sin.
• Christ's death: Christ took upon Himself the universal penalty of sin...death. He satisfied that universal consequence so that we no longer have to bear it ourselves. His death addressed the separation caused by sin, opening the way back to the Father. God's spirit which we had originally when Adam and Eve were created, but left after sin tore us apart (The Holy Spirit). This is why there was a warning that you will die if you eat from the fruit. It wasn't just literal death eventually, it was immediate spiritual death (Being spiritually dead is a concept scripture talks about several times).

So if your deduction is that obedience somehow adds to the sacrifice Christ did, that literally makes no sense considering it was disobedience that put him on the cross in the first place. And only through God's grace are we forgiven of sin. Like Soy said, if we were perfect in the law, we wouldn't have needed Christ but that doesn't mean you trample grace by not striving to do the best you can in obedience. And only those who strive in obedience are called Sons/Daughters of God (1 John 3:7-10, 1 John 2:3-5).

Please see post 378

 

[Delvianna]

If you think this. you have not been paying attention.. While they may not believe works are the only thing that saves us. far to many people say works are required

There is a difference between including works as required vs that in itself is what saves you. Again, you aren't paying attention to what is actually being said because multiple times grace has been mentioned as to what actually saves you.

 

[Delvianna]

Please see post 378

Post 392 again because you clearly didn't understand my point if you're referring me to 378. 378 is not a valid response to what I addressed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There is a difference between including works as required vs that in itself is what saves you.

Amen 100 %

But no one that I know of teaches works alone saves anyone. Nor have I ever heard anyone in any chatroom in over ten years accuse someone of preaching we are saved by works alone,

the only people who get accused of teaching alone, is people getting accused of saying we are saved by faith alone. which again. no one really believes .

when someone accuses someone else of teaching works salvation. they are not judging them for teaching works alone. they are judging them as teaching grace. plus works. plus faith.

Again, you aren't paying attention to what is actually being said because multiple times grace has been mentioned as to what actually saves you.

I just made a comment.

If you teach we are saved by Grace through faith and works like many do. you teach a works based gospel.

grace and works do not mix.

rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work
we are saved by Grace through faith Not by any type of works we do. lest we boast of saving ourselves.

We are not saved by faith. we are saved through faith.. we are ONLY saved by Grace, Not of works

eph 2: 4 but god, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith , and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works lest anyone should boast

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It notably does not say that we will be saved first and the. We will do those works, but fair describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

Actually it does say we are saved first. and then do works.

eph 2 8 - 20 is a perfect axample

 

[Delvianna]

Amen 100 %

But no one that I know of teaches works alone saves anyone. Nor have I ever heard anyone in any chatroom in over ten years accuse someone of preaching we are saved by works alone,

the only people who get accused of teaching alone, is people getting accused of saying we are saved by faith alone. which again. no one really believes .

when someone accuses someone else of teaching works salvation. they are not judging them for teaching works alone. they are judging them as teaching grace. plus works. plus faith.

I have and some people on this website have.

I just made a comment.

If you teach we are saved by Grace through faith and works like many do. you teach a works based gospel.

grace and works do not mix.

rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work
we are saved by Grace through faith Not by any type of works we do. lest we boast of saving ourselves.

We are not saved by faith. we are saved through faith.. we are ONLY saved by Grace, Not of works

eph 2: 4 but god, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith , and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works lest anyone should boast

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

I teach that obedience proves salvation because God wants us to be holy as He is holy. So anyone who claims Christ and does not walk in obedience, is not His. Again, going back to post 392. So then by definition, obedience is required because without it, it proves you aren't saved.

Again, post 392. Grace is what actually saves you but walking in obedience is how you are chosen.

Works does not equal obedience, they are not the same thing, don't conflate the two. Not all works = obedience but all obedience is works. To conflate the two is misunderstanding all the passages you just linked.

 

[Soyeong]

Amen 100 %

But no one that I know of teaches works alone saves anyone. Nor have I ever heard anyone in any chatroom in over ten years accuse someone of preaching we are saved by works alone,

the only people who get accused of teaching alone, is people getting accused of saying we are saved by faith alone. which again. no one really believes .

when someone accuses someone else of teaching works salvation. they are not judging them for teaching works alone. they are judging them as teaching grace. plus works. plus faith.

Someone can be alone apart from the company of other people while not being alone apart from the company of their pets, so someone can be alone and not alone at the same time in different sense. We are declared righteous by faith alone apart from works insofar as there are no works that we are required to have done first in order to earn it as the result, but we are not declared righteous by faith alone apart from becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God through faith (Romans 3:28-31).

I just made a comment.

If you teach we are saved by Grace through faith and works like many do. you teach a works based gospel.

grace and works do not mix.

rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work
we are saved by Grace through faith Not by any type of works we do. lest we boast of saving ourselves.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned as the result of works, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn a wage as the result (Romans 11:6), however, there are other reasons that works can be required that are compatible with grace. For example, in Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

We are not saved by faith. we are saved through faith.. we are ONLY saved by Grace, Not of works

eph 2: 4 but god, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith , and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works lest anyone should boast

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to do works for an incorrect reason while not speaking against being required to do works for correct reasons. The verses that you quoted deny that we can earn our salvation/righteousness as the result of our works, but they do not deny that ur salvation/righteousness require us to do works for correct reasons. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to be a doer of those works, so our salvation requires us to be a doer of those works, but not in order to become saved as the result. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to be a doer of righteous works other than in order to become righteous as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous part from works also upholds the Law of God.

Actually it does say we are saved first. and then do works.

Please show where Titus 2:11-13 says that we are saved first and then do those works.

eph 2 8 - 20 is a perfect axample

It notably does not say that we are saved first and then do works. In Ephesians 2:8, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer good works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.