The Rejection of Obedience

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have and some people on this website have.


I teach that obedience proves salvation because God wants us to be holy as He is holy. So anyone who claims Christ and does not walk in obedience, is not His. Again, going back to post 392. So then by definition, obedience is required because without it, it proves you aren't saved.

But God does not need proof. When you claim it is required. you are walking a tight rope of trusting in self. and not in God.

One who has true saving faith will work. because they were created as a new creature. in christ. their old nature was crucified with Christ. As John said in his first epistle chapter 3. One born of God can not live in sin, because Gods seed in is him.

Again, post 392. Grace is what actually saves you but walking in obedience is how you are chosen.

This is found no where in scripture. Your chosen because The son of man was sent to the world not to judge the world. but to save it. Your saved because your looked to the cross in faith (living faith) and recieved the gospel of truth. by recieving the gift of God which saves you.

You will only do this through repentance and faith.

thats why it says we are saved by Grace through faith, not of works.

Works does not equal obedience,

Actually they are. When yuo obey a command, you are doing a work of righteousness..

When you disobay a command, you are doing a work of the flesh.

they are not the same thing, don't conflate the two.

This is dangerous. and leads to your works based Gospel.

Not all works = obedience but all obedience is works.

This I will agree with. If I do a work of obedience but do it in a fleshly manner. it is sin, it is not a work of obedience.

A non believer can do a good deed. but he does it in the flesh. so even that good deed is a work of the flesh.

To conflate the two is misunderstanding all the passages you just linked.

To not conflate to the two again is to support a works based Gospel. which Paul spent book after book trying to destroy.

 

[Delvianna]

But God does not need proof. When you claim it is required. you are walking a tight rope of trusting in self. and not in God.

One who has true saving faith will work. because they were created as a new creature. in christ. their old nature was crucified with Christ. As John said in his first epistle chapter 3. One born of God can not live in sin, because Gods seed in is him.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. - Romans 2:6-8

Again, if you follow in unrighteousness, you are not saved and will be apart of this verse: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." They are calling him Lord, which are people who accept Christ. So not everyone who accepts Christ, then is saved. Which goes back to Romans 2. Christ is the gate, the starting point.

This is found no where in scripture. Your chosen because The son of man was sent to the world not to judge the world. but to save it. Your saved because your looked to the cross in faith (living faith) and recieved the gospel of truth. by recieving the gift of God which saves you.

You will only do this through repentance and faith.

thats why it says we are saved by Grace through faith, not of works.

Repentance is turning from unrighteousness which is breaking the law. How can you be saved, which includes repentance, if obedience isn't required? Which then, is all over scripture. You cannot turn from lawlnessness without walking in obedience, which is by definition what you do when you "repent".

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." - Acts 10:42

Christ judges the world, as he judged the Pharisees and found them vipers and white washed tombs (spiritually dead).

To not conflate to the two again is to support a works based Gospel. which Paul spent book after book trying to destroy.

You need to re-read Paul again because of Romans that I quoted. Also, 1 John backs up Paul, and Peter and James backs up them both. A works based gospel says works alone gets you to heaven, or that works is the catalyst for salvation, which no one is arguing. Grace saves, but Obedience is how you are chosen. In both instances, that puts God as the means for salvation, and not you. So you cannot "earn" your way. Doing works without God is "earning" your way. Doing works because of God (your love for God), is how you are chosen.

Works or obedience without Christ = Unsaved
Christ without obedience = unsaved
Christ with partial obedience = still unsaved (luke-warm)
Christ WITH obedience = saved

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Good fruit = righteousness, bad fruit = lawlessness.

 

[Churchgoer]

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. - Romans 2:6-8

Again, if you follow in unrighteousness, you are not saved and will be apart of this verse: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." They are calling him Lord, which are people who accept Christ. So not everyone who accepts Christ, then is saved. Which goes back to Romans 2. Christ is the gate, the starting point.


Repentance is turning from unrighteousness which is breaking the law. How can you be saved, which includes repentance, if obedience isn't required? Which then, is all over scripture. You cannot turn from lawlnessness without walking in obedience, which is by definition what you do when you "repent".

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." - Acts 10:42

Christ judges the world, as he judged the Pharisees and found them vipers and white washed tombs (spiritually dead).


You need to re-read Paul again because of Romans that I quoted. Also, 1 John backs up Paul, and Peter and James backs up them both. A works based gospel says works alone gets you to heaven, or that works is the catalyst for salvation, which no one is arguing. Grace saves, but Obedience is how you are chosen. In both instances, that puts God as the means for salvation, and not you. So you cannot "earn" your way. Doing works without God is "earning" your way. Doing works because of God (your love for God), is how you are chosen.

Works or obedience without Christ = Unsaved
Christ without obedience = unsaved
Christ with partial obedience = still unsaved (luke-warm)
Christ WITH obedience = saved

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Good fruit = righteousness, bad fruit = lawlessness.

agree.
But we need to put a time frame, which is in God's hand.
A new believer probably has little faith, but God will discipline His children 10 years, 20 years, to grow the new heart, more and more obedient.

If one person after 30 years still disobedient, then he should really humble and seek the Lord.

 

[Delvianna]

agree.
But we need to put a time frame, which is in God's hand.
A new believer probably has little faith, but God will discipline His children 10 years, 20 years, to grow the new heart, more and more obedient.

If one person after 30 years still disobedient, then he should really humble and seek the Lord.

Amen and agreed. God is the judge. There isn't a single mile-marker you can get to that says "okay I'm saved now". If you stay in Christ, He will get you to where you need to go if you obey Him. It's the parable of the vine. If you stay in the vine and obey Him, you will be nourished and saved. God alone determines where someone is at, but our faith is in God because we are really dumb sheep that constantly gets stuck in ditches, which He has to bail us out from. Which is why the holy spirit was sent, to help/aid us in doing what's right.

 

[PennEd]

There is a difference between including works as required vs that in itself is what saves you. Again, you aren't paying attention to what is actually being said because multiple times grace has been mentioned as to what actually saves you.

Your point was convoluted. “Must in a nuanced way”.

The entire sacrificial system was a foreshadowing, looking forward and similitude of Jesus Christ, and His once for all time perfect Sacrifice. In every conceivable way.

The sacrifices in the millennial kingdom, in heaven, or anywhere else will be for commemorative remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross.

 

[Delvianna]

Your point was convoluted. “Must in a nuanced way”.

The entire sacrificial system was a foreshadowing, looking forward and similitude of Jesus Christ, and His once for all time perfect Sacrifice. In every conceivable way.

The sacrifices in the millennial kingdom, in heaven, or anywhere else will be for commemorative remembrance of what Jesus did on the cross.

Your reply assumes a premise I don't even accept and one scripture doesn't even teach.

You said, "The entire sacrificial system was a foreshadowing...of Jesus Christ." Don't agree. Repeating your conclusion isn't a response to my argument.

I do not believe Christ was a foreshadowed Levitical sacrifice in the sense you're describing. So appealing to "foreshadowing" doesn't address what I said. Christ was not sacrificed on an altar before God or had his blood sprinkled anywhere and the act was not done by someone who was considered "clean". By definition, that cannot be a "foreshadow". Christs sacrifice in scripture is an analogy to help Jews understand what Christ did and not to be taken literally in the Levitical sense.

And since you called my answer convoluted, then you really don't understand what the sacrificial system does and are just probably parroting what you're told/taught. I couldn't have stated it anymore straightforward than I already did.

Christ fulfilled God's law, not Levitical law.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. - Romans 2:6-8

God is not an author of confusion. Eternal life is a gift. it is not earned.

those who consistenly do good are Gods children.

Those who follow evil are those who havew never met christ.

this is not a prescriptive verse. it is a descriptive verse.

Again, if you follow in unrighteousness, you are not saved and will be apart of this verse: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." They are calling him Lord, which are people who accept Christ. So not everyone who accepts Christ, then is saved. Which goes back to Romans 2. Christ is the gate, the starting point.

Then you have never been saved, because you have never had faith

we are saved by grace through faith. not of works.

Your work will nto save you. the price of redemtion was the cross. You cannot pay for your own sin.

Repentance is turning from unrighteousness which is breaking the law. How can you be saved, which includes repentance, if obedience isn't required? Which then, is all over scripture. You cannot turn from lawlnessness without walking in obedience, which is by definition what you do when you "repent".

No repentance is a change of mind, You agree with God and and change from a statue of unbelief to a state of faith.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." - Acts 10:42

Christ judges the world, as he judged the Pharisees and found them vipers and white washed tombs (spiritually dead).

Jesus said he was not sent to judge but to saved. Ye must be born again, Your not born again because of works.

You need to re-read Paul again because of Romans that I quoted. Also, 1 John backs up Paul, and Peter and James backs up them both. A works based gospel says works alone gets you to heaven, or that works is the catalyst for salvation, which no one is arguing. Grace saves, but Obedience is how you are chosen. In both instances, that puts God as the means for salvation, and not you. So you cannot "earn" your way. Doing works without God is "earning" your way. Doing works because of God (your love for God), is how you are chosen.

Your incorrect

a works based Gospel says works plus anything gets you to heaven.

Paul called the Galations fools because they thought it was faith plus works which got them saved.. They started in the spirit (faith) but myst perfect in the flesh (works)

Works or obedience without Christ = Unsaved
Christ without obedience = unsaved
Christ with partial obedience = still unsaved (luke-warm)
Christ WITH obedience = saved

We are saved by grace through faith

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Why would you boast of saving yourself by your works?

the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life

You work to earn a wage, you cannot earn a gift.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Good fruit = righteousness, bad fruit = lawlessness.

A tree can not bear fruit unless they are in christ

we are not in christ unless we recieve his gift of life in faith

no works are involved.

eph 2: 4 but god, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith , and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works lest anyone should boast

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness
rom 4: 16 therefore it if of faith that it may be according to grace , so that the promise may be sure to all the seed not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of abraham , who is the father of us all


rom 4: 23 now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us, it shall be imputed to us who believe in him who raised up Jesus our lord from the dead , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification


rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work
2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

 

[dkontner]

Jesus made me free. If I mess up, I'll be chastened. If I mess up bad enough, I'll be turned over for the destruction of the flesh.

No matter what I do, I've been sealed. From that point on, the Lord has been cleaning me up (thru His word). No one can say otherwise, I know who saved me.

1 Corinthians 5​

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[PennEd]

Your reply assumes a premise I don't even accept and one scripture doesn't even teach.

You said, "The entire sacrificial system was a foreshadowing...of Jesus Christ." Don't agree. Repeating your conclusion isn't a response to my argument.

I do not believe Christ was a foreshadowed Levitical sacrifice in the sense you're describing. So appealing to "foreshadowing" doesn't address what I said. Christ was not sacrificed on an altar before God or had his blood sprinkled anywhere and the act was not done by someone who was considered "clean". By definition, that cannot be a "foreshadow". Christs sacrifice in scripture is an analogy to help Jews understand what Christ did and not to be taken literally in the Levitical sense.

And since you called my answer convoluted, then you really don't understand what the sacrificial system does and are just probably parroting what you're told/taught. I couldn't have stated it anymore straightforward than I already did.

Christ fulfilled God's law, not Levitical law.

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law, and that you cannot see that the Sacrificial system was a foreshadowing and in effect a prophecy of Jesus’s ultimate Sacrifice belies an immaturity of the Word.

Christs sacrifice in scripture is an analogy to help Jews understand what Christ did and not to be taken literally in the Levitical sense.

Pure unadulterated heresy.

Are you Jewish?

The entire Bible, every single bit of it, is about Jesus, His Birth, Death, Resurrection.

Start with the first three words. “In the beginning” Bereshit. God’s redemption plan is there, and on every page.

Hebrews 10:7
​

7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

 

[Churchgoer]

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law, and that you cannot see that the Sacrificial system was a foreshadowing and in effect a prophecy of Jesus’s ultimate Sacrifice belies an immaturity of the Word.

Pure unadulterated heresy.

Are you Jewish?

The entire Bible, every single bit of it, is about Jesus, His Birth, Death, Resurrection.

Start with the first three words. “In the beginning” Bereshit. God’s redemption plan is there, and on every page.

Hebrews 10:7​

​

7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Agree, entire Bible from beginning to end, it is about Jesus.
Whoever reject Jesus, will not see the kingdom of God.
Simple.
Plain.
Jesus centered.

 

[Delvianna]

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law, and that you cannot see that the Sacrificial system was a foreshadowing and in effect a prophecy of Jesus’s ultimate Sacrifice belies an immaturity of the Word.

Pure unadulterated heresy.

Are you Jewish?

The entire Bible, every single bit of it, is about Jesus, His Birth, Death, Resurrection.

Start with the first three words. “In the beginning” Bereshit. God’s redemption plan is there, and on every page.

Hebrews 10:7​

​

7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

You don't understand my point. I'm just going to move on since you haven't understood my points from the beginning.

 

[Delvianna]

God is not an author of confusion. Eternal life is a gift. it is not earned.

those who consistenly do good are Gods children.

Those who follow evil are those who havew never met christ.

this is not a prescriptive verse. it is a descriptive verse.

Then you have never been saved, because you have never had faith

we are saved by grace through faith. not of works.

Your work will nto save you. the price of redemtion was the cross. You cannot pay for your own sin.

No repentance is a change of mind, You agree with God and and change from a statue of unbelief to a state of faith.

Jesus said he was not sent to judge but to saved. Ye must be born again, Your not born again because of works.

Your incorrect

a works based Gospel says works plus anything gets you to heaven.

Paul called the Galations fools because they thought it was faith plus works which got them saved.. They started in the spirit (faith) but myst perfect in the flesh (works)

We are saved by grace through faith

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Why would you boast of saving yourself by your works?

the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life

You work to earn a wage, you cannot earn a gift.



A tree can not bear fruit unless they are in christ

we are not in christ unless we recieve his gift of life in faith

no works are involved.

eph 2: 4 but god, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith , and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works lest anyone should boast

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness
rom 4: 16 therefore it if of faith that it may be according to grace , so that the promise may be sure to all the seed not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of abraham , who is the father of us all


rom 4: 23 now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us, it shall be imputed to us who believe in him who raised up Jesus our lord from the dead , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification


rom 11: 6 and if by grace, than it is no longer of works, ; otherwise grace is no longer grace.but if it is of works, then it is no longer of grace. otherwise work is no longer work
2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

titus 3: 4 but when the kindness and the love of god our savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 that having been justified by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

I already defined what works is, but you're going back to a definition I don't hold while claiming I do. This conversation is just going circular at this point if you can't get passed what I'm rejecting while you're claiming otherwise.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I already defined what works is, but you're going back to a definition I don't hold while claiming I do.

Again.

We do not get to define what a word is. God does.

Just because you have a seperate defenition for works does not mean you are right. I go with what the word says

Your defenition of works vs obedience is in error

This conversation is just going circular at this point if you can't get passed what I'm rejecting while you're claiming otherwise.

Its going circular because you are unable to see what we are saying, and trying to support your works based Gospel

Again

We are justified as a gift. by the work of God on the cross.

We recieve that gift.. We do not earn it by acts of obedience.

if you think this, you place yourself under law. not under grace

 

[Delvianna]

Again.

We do not get to define what a word is. God does.

Just because you have a seperate defenition for works does not mean you are right. I go with what the word says

Your defenition of works vs obedience is in error

Its going circular because you are unable to see what we are saying, and trying to support your works based Gospel

Again

We are justified as a gift. by the work of God on the cross.

We recieve that gift.. We do not earn it by acts of obedience.

if you think this, you place yourself under law. not under grace

Your definition of works is incorrect which pushes an interpretation of salvation that I don't hold. And no, your logic is incorrect as I stated almost a dozen times now in this thread, Grace saves but obedience is how you are chosen. That by definition still puts you under grace. Under the law = the law is what saves, which I've rejected now almost a dozen times. So if you're going to ignore what I'm saying and argue for something I'm not saying, I'm going to move along too.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your definition of works is incorrect which pushes an interpretation of salvation that I don't hold.

correct.

You have a salvation of works. You believe obedience to some commands are required.. that puts you under law not under grace.

And no, your logic is incorrect as I stated almost a dozen times now in this thread, Grace saves but obedience is how you are chosen.

And your wrong. on all accounts.

I am saved by grace. before I obey one command. and that salvation is eternal.

it is not a question of if I will obey, It is a matter of when I will obey my first command.

That by definition still puts you under grace. Under the law = the law is what saves, which I've rejected now almost a dozen times. So if you're going to ignore what I'm saying and argue for something I'm not saying, I'm going to move along too.

I am telling you what your saying

you can deny your teaching works. but you are. I am not the only one who sees this. so it is not just me.

Obedince is not required. Obedience is a byproduct of salvation.

 

[Churchgoer]

correct.

You have a salvation of works. You believe obedience to some commands are required.. that puts you under law not under grace.

And your wrong. on all accounts.

I am saved by grace. before I obey one command. and that salvation is eternal.

it is not a question of if I will obey, It is a matter of when I will obey my first command.

I am telling you what your saying

you can deny your teaching works. but you are. I am not the only one who sees this. so it is not just me.

Obedince is not required. Obedience is a byproduct of salvation.

Maybe obedience is the fruit of salvation?

Branch without fruit got trimmed?

 

[Churchgoer]

Maybe the 1st fruit is accepting Jesus as Lord and savior?

 

[Delvianna]

correct.

You have a salvation of works. You believe obedience to some commands are required.. that puts you under law not under grace.

And your wrong. on all accounts.

I am saved by grace. before I obey one command. and that salvation is eternal.

it is not a question of if I will obey, It is a matter of when I will obey my first command.

I am telling you what your saying

you can deny your teaching works. but you are. I am not the only one who sees this. so it is not just me.

Obedince is not required. Obedience is a byproduct of salvation.

No, you just want to stick words in my mouth and flat ignore what I'm actually saying so you can feel like you're right. It's not even a debate on the topic at this point. You're falsely accusing me of something I'm not actually saying and then arguing against your own misrepresentation instead of responding to my actual position.

I've repeatedly said grace is what saves, not obedience. If you continue insisting that I believe something I've explicitly denied over and over, then there's no discussion to be had because you're debating a position you've invented, not the one I've presented. So I'm going to pull out of responding to you. At least debate what I'm actually saying, not what you've decided in your head I'm saying.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You are putting words in my mouth.

Don’t know of any Christians that think we shouldn’t obey God.

The difference is between SHOULD, and MUST.

If the “must” means you must do or not do something aside from believing and trusting in Jesus, then that person is adding to His Sacrifice and trampling the Blood of Christ.

This is not even a matter of "should" or "must".

If you have the Holy Spirit, you WILL obey God and will not go on sinning just as the Bible says. With the Holy Spirit, obeying God is easy and just comes naturally. In Him, you don't have to force yourself to obey God and resist sin. Remember.....

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."

If you are having a difficult time obeying God and resisting sin, you need to have a serious talk with God about what is missing - or rather WHO.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe obedience is the fruit of salvation?

Branch without fruit got trimmed?

Yes it got trimmed

But remember, It could not attach itself to the vine, it can not remove itself from the vine.

If it wants to produce fruit. God will trim it, Prune it, or even lift it up so it produces fruit.

God created us into a new creature. Sin is no longer our natural state. it is poison to us now. As John said, we can no longer live in sin. because we have been born of God.

True faith produces true works. If you do not work. it just proves your faith was not living.

but remember, The pharisees obeyed God in doing commands.. they were the most righteous according to the law.

So works should be be a deciding facter on if someone is a child of God or not.

Faith should be. what is a persons faith in?

Their works.? Or the promises of God?