The Role of the Woman

[zoii]

Ok you are taking it to the extreme. I for one have never told my wife that and she has never told me that. If you are in a relationship like that then yes it is wrong. The bible doesn't support this.

I'm editing this post because I just saw your age. So I'm guessing you have seen this from your mom and dad? Because right now I'm having a hard time seeing that you have gone through this personally.

I think itd be wise of u to leave any comments or criticisms of my parents out of this

 

[CeileDe]

sorry...are you directing this to me? (helps if you quote please or at least address the post to the intended poster..thanks)

It was directed at everyone reading the thread

 

[CeileDe]

I think itd be wise of u to leave any comments or criticisms of my parents out of this

I wasn't criticizing your parents just asking where you get your life long experience with your comments.

 

[Sirk]

Ok you are taking it to the extreme. I for one have never told my wife that and she has never told me that. If you are in a relationship like that then yes it is wrong. The bible doesn't support this.

I'm editing this post because I just saw your age. So I'm guessing you have seen this from your mom and dad? Because right now I'm having a hard time seeing that you have gone through this personally.

My parents set a terrible example and then divorced so I had to do a lot of relearning how a good relationship works and my role in helping that happen.

 

[secularhermit]

I´d like to thank all those failures I had and all I saw as a witness... With that spectrum of choices I now know what I would pick to me.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Lol, TRUE!

I think itd be wise of u to leave any comments or criticisms of my parents out of this

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here's something to think about: not having the problem is a solution.

Elegant simplicity.

The government cannot legally deprive you of your liberty, status, power, resources, progeny, etc... if you never allow yourself to become ensnared by the body of law which permits them to.

^ Bingo! We have a winner. .

I´d like to thank all those failures I had and all I saw as a witness... With that spectrum of choices I now know what I would pick to me.

 

[tourist]

The list of the OP on the biblical role of a woman is exhaustive. I am sure that the biblical role of a man is equally exhaustive. i am exhausted to even contemplate such a list.

If a man believes that his future wife is actually going to fulfill all the items on this list he will end up disappointed.

 

[ember]

This, from Angela, just really does justice to a summation of this thread. I think it needs a second read

Marc, the more I think about this OP, and this thread, the more vehement I become about how wrong it is to copy and paste, to present Scriptures out of context, and how wrong some of the assumptions are especially by the men on this thread.

Let's see - if you prayed before you got married, and God said yes, then you will have a good marriage. I know women who prayed and had others pray and thought God said yes, and then ended up in a nightmare marriage with a selfish, mama's boy who would not lift a finger, and never put his wife first once, despite his supposed commitment to Christ. We won't even get into the abuse some of them have suffered at the hands of pastors, deacons and men who are supposed to be servants of God.

Then there is that infamous passage from Ephesians 5. Somehow, everyone wants to start the passage at Eph. 5:22. But Eph 5:21 is part of Paul's train of thought.

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ," Eph. 5:21

The rest of the Ephesians 5 passage is very relevant, as a household code in Greece or Rome, to teach men to treat their wives in a totally different way than that culture. The passage is written to men. Oh yes, the earliest manuscripts don't even have the word "submit" in Eph. 5:22, by the way.

I also hurt for the women who are single, who are being told the only way they will fulfill their "role" is to be married! It demotes them to something less than married women, which is contrary to Scripture. Paul tells people if they are able, it is better to be single!

" But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I." 1 Cor 7:8

As for those who were in marriages, which they prayed about, and ended up getting abused, then living in poverty when they sought to get out, like Misty testified to, I have heard this story over and over again.

I am blessed to have a wonderful husband, but my eyes are open to the truth that a Christian marriage needs to be accountable to God by both spouses. We each stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to answer for ourselves. And I personally don't think a good answer is "Well, my husband made me do it!" It is demeaning to women to suggest that they are accountable to a husband, rather than to God.

Jesus Christ is the one who has been given authority. Because of the bad translation of 1 Tim. 2:12, many men have somehow come to think that they have authority, and a woman is to be under them.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek

The key word here is αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. It is an infinitive, which in the case of the ESV and most translations, means that you actually have to add a verb, such as "usurp" in the KJV or "exercise" in the ESV. The word "authentein" is a verb, whereas "authority" is a noun. In fact, the word exousia ἐξουσία, is the word for authority, and is found in such places as Matt 28:18 where Jesus tells his disciples that he has been given ALL authority.

"And Jesus came and said to them,“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18

In fact, "authentein", used in the 1 Tim. 2:12 passage is a hapax legomena. That means that it is only used once in the Bible. Therefore, we have to look to contemporaneous sources to find a definition of this verb. There are actually over 50 different words used in extra biblical sources when translating this word. But the one that comes up the most, is "to dominate." Therefore, a women is not to "dominate." Given the culture in Ephesus, with the temple of Artemis, the kinds of rites and rituals and the dominance of women, Paul had a definite reason to write this phrase. He did not want the former priestesses of Artemis to be dominating their husbands. A far cry from the authority of men over women for all times. Or even husbands over their wives!

In the garden of Eden, there were no roles. As believers, we are not instructed to live out the Fall, with its roles and consquences of sin, daily in our marriages. Instead, we are to support and help one another. Eve was not a "Helpmeet" or "helper" as many translations say. Instead, God created her to be an equal partner, an "ezer" who was a warrior. God did not create a weak and submissive woman that Adam would have to take care of for the rest of his life. God created a woman who was his equal, his partner and someone who could help him fight in the battles of life. Yes, even in the Garden of Eden.

I have taken the time to study this extensively in the original languages. God's plan is NOT for a woman to be a door mat, or for the man to have authority over her. Only Jesus has that authority! As for submission, Eph. 5:21 says it all - we are to submit to each other!

 

[MarcR]

This, from Angela, just really does justice to a summation of this thread. I think it needs a second read

AMEN

If you read my remarks carefully; you will note that I NEVER agreed with the OP!

My concern and my remarks were consistently about how Mary was being treated while we were disagreeing with her.

Anyone who has read what I post knows that while I consider male leadership Scriptural; I DO NOT CONSIDER SUBJUGATION OR ABUSE OF WOMEN ACCEPTABLE!!!

 

[MarcR]

My personal take on is that yes....God does give generously to us.....but our feet still gotta move. If you wanna good job you gotta go to college and learn how to do it first.

No argument from me here; but you haven't addressed whether or how Jas 1:5 applies to making decisions.

 

[MarcR]

In terms of marriage, you could be Solomon, but that may not make the other person wise. Neither is being wise assurance of avoiding bad circumstances, that you never even foresee. Nor is wisdom now assurance of remaining wise. But, again, God doesn't make robots. It's not an appropriate prayer, to ask God to, in essence, make sure the person you marry tows the line, or yourself, in perpetuity, or slay one of you, whatever. You have to both tow the line, fastidiously, or there will be trouble. There are zero guarantees in marriage. It will always be taking a chance, an element of blind faith. Again, not even God will force obedience, and you're even talking about a lifetime of obedience, moving forward. It's like asking God, "Make my flesh life, in a corrupt world, perfect." Nice prayer, but probably not a very good one. Better to ask Him to help you cope, with the evils of the day!

The problem is that I am not looking at this in terms of marriage. I am looking at whether or how Jas 1:5 applies to making decisions in general.

Until there is understanding of the verse we can't apply it to anything. If we correctly understand the verse; it should apply to all decisions, or none, the same way.

My understanding of the verse is still in accordance with the way I applied it.

 

[p_rehbein]

Actually there is plenty of scripture to support the OP. Not just in the OT but in the NT as well

And plenty of Scripture to show the misinterpretation of the Scriptures you speak of

 

[p_rehbein]

I'm just sharing my truth and my personal beliefs that are supported by the scriptures. I should have the right to share my beliefs.

Well, not according to how some here translate Scripture..........you are to keep silent........you provided this one:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. -1 Timothy 2:11

Now, I'm all for you expressing your thoughts/opinions, but if you and others are going to try and teach this submissive slavery stuff, well, you got to abide by it first don't you? Just saying.

 

[p_rehbein]

Far too many people/Pastors/churches teach this stuff about women.............BUT..........I don't see ANY of them living it. So, why should we accept their teachings? Now, they will say (such as the Southern Baptists) we don't allow women Pastors.......so we ARE living it.

Yeah, ok, then you go into the "keep silence in church and if they want to learn let them learn at home from their husbands..." Oh, they say, that's not relevant today.......

SERIOUSLY?

And the Baptists aren't the only ones living the hypocrisy of this teaching..........just using them as an example. If you guys are not going to follow all of Paul's opinions on women and their role in the church..........don't come to me with a "oner" and argue it's truth.

Again, this whole thing is because of the difference between the Carnal Christian and the Spiritual Christian. The "be submissive" folks just need to grow into a Spiritual understanding of His Word and all of this will not matter.

 

[Olerica]

The list of the OP on the biblical role of a woman is exhaustive. I am sure that the biblical role of a man is equally exhaustive. i am exhausted to even contemplate such a list.

If a man believes that his future wife is actually going to fulfill all the items on this list he will end up disappointed.

In the same breath (and conversely) if a man believes this for his future wife (or current wife, as the case may be) he'd better be toeing the line on his role as a man/husband.

I don't know, aren't we supposed to be growing together in Christ in our marriages (yeah, I'm single currently), aren't we supposed to support each other in our respective roles?

No one is going to win if we keep pointing at each other and accusing, "You are doing it WRONG". In this, and SO MANY OTHER INSTANCES IN OUR LIVING OUT OUR WALK WITH CHRIST, we'd be best to pay attention to what WE should be doing, and then doing it as individuals. Only then we can go and plank remove. Even in marriage, being gentle and gracious with each other, encouraging growth and development and not bonking each other over the head when it's not "done right".

There's a reason marriage is hard, and it's not for every one. I'm glad that AgeofKnowledge know's it's not for him (for whatever reason). That's his choice.... and it's not a choice everyone wants to make, or can make. But marriage should be entered into soberly, carefully, humbly and with a huge storage shed of forgiveness.

 

[Olerica]

*Caveat to my last post*

If either spouse is being physically and/or mentally abused? That needs to stop. Don't let that go on. Seek help. Find a friend. PM me.... or someone safe. No one should have to endure abusive behavior.

 

[Stephen63]

In the garden of Eden, there were no roles. As believers, we are not instructed to live out the Fall, with its roles and consquences of sin, daily in our marriages. Instead, we are to support and help one another. Eve was not a "Helpmeet" or "helper" as many translations say.

When I read this, I HAD to check this out for myself, 'cause in these days one MUST be a true Berean in the Word. Here's my findings from Hard Sayings of the Bible:
Genesis 2:18. A Helper for Man?
Are women inferior to men, merely designed to be their helpers? Is it consistent with the biblical text to view men as the initiators and women as their assistants? Is this what makes women suitable matches for men?
The Creator regarded Adam's situation as incomplete and deficient while he was living without community or a proper counterpart. The Creator judged Adam's situation quite negatively: "It is not good."
Eccles. 4:9-12 expresses this same opinion about aloneness. The wise writer Solomon advised:
Two are better than one. . . . If one falls down, his friend can help him up. . . . Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.
True, in Jeremiah 16:1-9 the prophet Jeremiah is commanded by God to remain alone, but this is meant to be a sign that God's judgment on the people is so near that it will not be worthwhile to get married. Nevertheless, the full life is a life that finds its fulfillment in community with another person or group of persons.
In the Genesis story we find that God created a woman after he had created the man. This would end Adam's loneliness and the state that God judged to be "not good." She was to be his "helper"—at least that is how most of the translations have interpreted this word. A sample of the translations reads as follows: "I shall make a helper fit for him" (RSV); "I will make a fitting helper for him" (New Jewish Publication Society); "I will make an aid fit for him" (AB); "I will make him a helpmate" (JB); "I will make a suitable partner for him" (NAB); "I will make him a helper comparable to him" (NKJV).
However, the customary translation of the two words [FONT=&quot]ʿēzer kenegdô[/FONT]as "helper fitting him" is almost certainly wrong. Recently R. David Freedman has pointed out that the Hebrew word [FONT=&quot]ʿēzer[/FONT] is a combination of two roots: [FONT=&quot]ʿ[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]z[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT], meaning "to rescue, to save," and [FONT=&quot]ǵ[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]z[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT], meaning "to be strong." The difference between the two is the first letter in Hebrew. Today that letter is silent in Hebrew, but in ancient times it was a guttural sound formed in the back of the throat. The [FONT=&quot]ǵ[/FONT]was a[FONT=&quot]ghayyin[/FONT], and it came to use the same Hebrew symbol as the other sound, [FONT=&quot]ʿayin[/FONT]. But the fact that they were pronounced differently is clear from such place names which preserve the g sound, such as Gaza or Gomorrah. Some Semitic languages distinguished between these two signs and others did not; for example, Ugaritic did make a distinction between the [FONT=&quot]ʿayin[/FONT] and the [FONT=&quot]ghayyin[/FONT]; Hebrew did not (R. David Freedman, "Woman, a Power Equal to a Man," Biblical Archaeology Review 9 [1983]: 56-58).
It would appear that sometime around 1500 b.c. these two signs began to be represented by one sign in Phoenician. Consequently the two phonemes merged into one grapheme and what had been two different roots merged into one, much as in English the one word fast can refer to a person's speed, abstinence from food, his or her slyness in a "fast deal" or the adamant way in which someone holds "fast" to positions. The noun [FONT=&quot]ʿēzer[/FONT] occurs twenty-one times in the Old Testament. In many of the passages it is used in parallelism to words that clearly denote strength or power. Some examples are:
There is none like the God of Jeshurun, The Rider of the Heavens in your strength ([FONT=&quot]ʿ[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]z[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT]), and on the clouds in his majesty. (Deut. 33:26, my translation)
Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the Lord? He is the shield of your strength ([FONT=&quot]ʿ[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]z[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT]) and the sword of your majesty. (Deut. 33:29, my translation)
The case that begins to build is that we can be sure that [FONT=&quot]ʿēzer[/FONT] means "strength" or "power" whenever it is used in parallelism with words for majesty or other words for power such as [FONT=&quot]ʿoz[/FONT] or [FONT=&quot]ʿuzzo[/FONT]. In fact, the presence of two names for one king, Azariah and Uzziah (both referring to God's strength), makes it abundantly clear that the root [FONT=&quot]ʿēzer[/FONT] meaning "strength" was known in Hebrew.
Therefore I suggest that we translate Genesis 2:18 as "I will make a power [or strength] corresponding to man." Freedman even suggests on the basis of later Hebrew that the second word in the Hebrew expression found in this verse should be rendered equal to him. If this is so, then God makes for the man a woman fully his equal and fully his match. In this way, the man's loneliness will be assuaged.
The same line of reasoning occurs in the apostle Paul. He urged in 1 Cor. 11:10, "For this reason, a woman must have power [or authority] on her head [that is to say, invested in her]."
This line of reasoning which stresses full equality is continued in Genesis 2:23, where Adam says of Eve, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." The idiomatic sense of this phrase "bone of my bones" is a "very close relative," "one of us" or in effect "our equal."
The woman was never meant to be an assistant or "helpmate" to the man. The word mate slipped into English since it was so close to Old English meet, which means "fit to" or "corresponding to" the man. That all comes from the phrase that I have suggested likely means "equal to."
What God had intended then was to make a "power" or "strength" for the man who would in every way "correspond to him" or even "be his equal."

I fully believe this to be true. Woman wasn't created to be a lower "helper", but a joint partner. I already believed this without substantial evidence, understanding that eve's subjective position was given her AFTER the fall, meaning in the beginning it was not so.

In the NT, we see Priscilla & Aquila ministering exactly this way, both of them tentmakers & ministers of the Gospel.
Since Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13), then isn't the judgement lifted from women christians also?
Please note:
Revelation 1:4-6 (KJV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; [SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath made us (past tense) kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

If Christ already sees all christians equally as this, why don't we?

 

[zoii]

I wasn't criticizing your parents just asking where you get your life long experience with your comments.

I'm guessing your being sarcastic and that your saying because I'm 14 I haven't lived long enough to be able to comment here. Well you think that because you don't know me. And I'm not trying to speak like a 60 year old - I'm speaking from my own 14yo heart n mind. Everyone can see my age so I don't even know why u posted this answer unless it was to have some sort of verbal shot at me.

 

[zoii]

I wasn't criticizing your parents just asking where you get your life long experience with your comments.

And by the way I think you were criticising my parents when u said "I'm editing this post because I just saw your age. So I'm guessing you have seen this from your mom and dad"