The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

louis · Aug 25, 2019

Good morning GaryA,
The environmental destruction of the earth in Revelation 8 occurs prior to the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:2.
The beast ascends from the bottomless pit (Revelation 17:8).
The beast ascending from the bottomless pit is another description for his rising from the sea in Revelation 13:1.
People in Revelation 8 will therefore not be worshipping the beast prior to his rising from the bottomless pit/ sea.
With this realization, we can then deduce that when the beast does rise from the bottomless pit/sea, which will have all the world who are not written in the lambs book of life worshipping him (Revelation 13:8), that the beasts system will temporarily put a halt to the environmental destruction that is currently taking place due to fossil fuel use.

louis · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Good morning Ahwatukee,
Yes, there will be a tribulation such as the world has never experienced at the conclusion of the beasts system as Revelation 16 clearly indicates, but there will also be great tribulation throughout the world prior to the beast rising from the bottomless pit/sea, as the destruction of 1/3 of the environment in Revelation 8 clearly indicates.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

jb said:

Good day JB,

Excuse me but that is a well known false teaching which I have debated many times before and which you are just repeating. The truth is that the devil and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth takes place as a result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet which is the 3rd woe and which takes place in the middle of the seven years and continues through the entire last 3 1/2 years of God's wrath, not Satan's nor man's. God's wrath begins with the opening of the 1st seal, the rider on the white horse, which is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21 and is completed at the pouring out of the 7th bowl judgment. The period that follows the gathering of the church is all God's wrath. God uses Satan, the beast and the false prophet to fulfill His purpose during that time. In other words everything that they do is apart of God's plan.

According to the Lord, the great tribulation period will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened no one would be left alive on the earth. And your claiming that "The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God?" My advice to you is to stop reading the false teachings of men and trust in the word of God.

The tribulation period will be the fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy 'sevens' that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem found in Daniel 9:24-27. It will also be the time when God will pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. Therefore, since it is the fulfillment of God's decree, it is not Satan's nor man's wrath, but God's.

I do agree with you the after Satan and his angels are cast out, he is angry knowing that his time is short because 3 1/2 years later when the Lord returns to end the age he will be locked up in the Abyss during the thousand reign of Christ. However and as I previously stated, just because Satan is angry for being cast out of heaven it does not mean that the last 3 1/2 years is his wrath. That entire period is still God's wrath, but Satan is just angry because he will have been cast out and has a short time left.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

louis said:

Blessings to you Louis!

Yes, I totally agree with you in that, the entire seven years will be God's tribulation, with the last 3 1/2 years being referred to by the Lord as the great tribulation, which begins at the setting up of the abomination. The first 3 1/2 years will have been initiated by the opening of the first seal rider on the white horse, which figuratively represents the emergence of the antichrist and who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse revealed in Rev.19:11-21, who is the Lord.

That last seven years will be in fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy 'sevens" (seventy seven year periods) which was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as found in Dan.9:24-27. It will involve Israel and the entire world, as God will be pouring out His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments upon a Christ rejecting world and which will continue throughout the entire seven years, with the Lord returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

GaryA said:

Well Gary, I think that you had better continue to watch the posts here, because there are many people who make the claim that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath but protected. These are those who believe in post tribulation, i.e. that the church will be gathered when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Since the wrath of God takes place prior to the Lord's return to end the age, then it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. I debate this all the time and that is why I say stuff like this.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

GaryA said:

If Jesus is already here on the earth, then it would make no sense for Him to say "Look, I come like a thief" at the opening of the 6th bowl judgment. The fact that he will arrive on the clouds of the sky to end the age tells us that He is not on the earth during the time of His wrath. Not only that, but the phrase "second coming" wouldn't make any sense if in fact the Lord was already here.

What scripture(s) makes you believe that Christ will be on the earth for the entire duration of the bowl judgments? I have found no such scripture stating this.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

GaryA said:

I think that you have that backwards. What is more of a lie, that the Lord is going to gather believers who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God after the time of His wrath, or that God is going to gather believers who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled before His wrath? If you believe the former, then you don't understand the nature of God in that, He does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what He would be doing if He gathers the church after His wrath. And anyone who says different has not understood the severity of the coming seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

To understand who is correct regarding this issue, it is just going to be a matter of the timing of the church being gathered in relation to God's wrath being poured out. To be clear, when the resurrection takes place and the living church is removed and following that the antichrist is revealed by making his seven year agreement with Israel, then everyone will know that we were correct. In opposition, if the antichrist makes his seven year agreement with Israel and the church is still here, then everyone will know that the post tribulation view was correct. That is the only way that these issues will be settled, i.e. by the order in which they take place.

* Gathering of the church

* Seven year agreement made with Israel by the antichrist

* Wrath of God begins and continues throughout the entire seven years

* Jesus returns after the 7th bowl has been poured out

* Beast and false prophet thrown alive in the lake of fire

* Satan thrown into and locked up in the Abyss for a thousand years

* Millennial kingdom

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

GaryA said:

Gary, by claiming that the bowls/vials alone are the wrath of God, you are clearly not taking all of the scriptures into account. I know that you will just produce another false apologetic, but consider the following:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

Since the seven bowl judgments as a unit are said to be the seven last plagues which complete God's wrath, then there would have to be wrath that takes place before them. To be clear, in saying that the bowls are "last," then other plagues of wrath would have to come before the bowls.

As and example, if I tell you that I was last in line to get my concert tickets, that immediately infers that there were other people in front of me. It is the same here. By saying that bowl judgments are the last of God's wrath, then other wrath would have had to have taken place before them, which would be the seals and the trumpet judgments.

If something is last, then something else would have to come before.

garee · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

2 Corinthians 5:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:

I would offer. We are in the most terrible time of our lives as witnesses or martyrs .Living in tribulation of a body of death as the wrath of God being revealed from heaven against a corrupted creation. Who having no faith(not little) by which they could beleive God. They naturally try to make a invisible God who is not a man, into a man.

Therefore placing him in the holy place of God not seen. the abomination of desecration. A place the Son of man Jesus refused to stand in. . . but rather gave glory to our unseen God saying. . . God alone not seen is "good". The word good acting as the signature of God's approval.. again the unseen witness . . . "Let there be and it was good.". . . day after day.

For the wrath of God (death) is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 18-20

Being understood by the things that are made the temporal mixing them with faith the eternal (Hebrew 4:1-4) our sabbath rest.

The prescription or recipe for mixing faith a requirement for our rest in our works as Christ does work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure...our born again free will he says to do so without murmuring.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ the Spirt of Jesus then he belongs not to Him . We are reigning with Christ .On the last day the new heavens and earth with appear as the city prepared as his one bride his wife the church .,

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

GaryA said:

At least your batting average is consisent!

The claim that Jesus is the male child is a knee-jerk reaction made by many. There are a few reasons as to why Jesus cannot be the male child.

1. The male child is an event which will take place during the "what must take place later" part of what John was told to write, that is, it takes place after the church period.

2. Jesus does not match the criteria of the male child

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars, is identified as representing Israel and that by comparing the symbols of the sun, moon and stars in Genesis 37:9-10.

So the woman/Israel will give birth to a male child, which is figuratively referring to the 144,000 who will come out of unbelieving Israel. This 144,000 will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. The phrase "gives birth to" is referring to the woman, which is unbelieving Israel, figuratively giving birth to 144,000 who believe in Jesus. The phrase has nothing to do with the literal birth of Jesus.

In Rev.14:4 regarding the 144,000, the verse states that "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." That they did not defile themselves with women would demonstrate that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child.

Furthermore, the scripture states that the dragon/Satan is waiting to kill the child as soon as it is born. But before he can do that, the male child is caught up to God and to His throne. The same word "harpazo" translated as "caught up" that is described for the living church at the time of the resurrection, is used here to describe the male child being caught up. I believe that they will be changed and caught up in the same manner as the living church will have been previously.

Regarding this and as I stated, Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the male child because He was not caught up before being killed, but was crucified, resurrected and ascended to the right hand of God. Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the male child, but is a collective name representing the 144,000.

KJV1611 · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Let me see if I have this right. The woman is Israel, the sun is Israel, the moon is Israel and the twelve stars is also Israel.

So to paraphrase the verse, we have- Israel clothed with Israel with Israel under her feet and Israel as a crown upon her head.

Is this what you’re saying?

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Please KJV1611, quote my post correctly! If you go look at my post I never said that the sun is Israel, the moon is Israel and the twelve stars are Israel. What I did is say is that the symbols combined represent the nation Israel and that because each of the symbols represent Jacob, his wife/wives and his sons. All together they represent the nation Israel

The woman is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars which incorporates all of the symbols.

In Joseph's dream, the sun = Jacob, the moon = wife/wives and the eleven stars represent eleven of the twelve tribes with Joseph being the twelfth star.

The features of the woman are the sun, moon and twelve stars and therefore the symbols combined identifies the woman as being Israel

KJV1611 · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Please KJV1611, quote my post correctly! If you go look at my post I never said that the sun is Israel, the moon is Israel and the twelve stars are Israel. What I did is say is that the symbols combined represent the nation Israel and that because each of the symbols represent Jacob, his wife/wives and his sons. All together they represent the nation Israel

The woman is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars which incorporates all of the symbols.

In Joseph's dream, the sun = Jacob, the moon = wife/wives and the eleven stars represent eleven of the twelve tribes with Joseph being the twelfth star.

The features of the woman are the sun, moon and twelve stars and therefore the symbols combined identifies the woman as being Israel

If Israel is the woman then who or what is the sun that’s she’s clothed with?

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

KJV1611 said:

The woman as a whole represents the nation Israel and that because she is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Since the sun, moon and stars represent Jacob, his wives and his son's, the twelve tribes respectively, then since the woman has those same symbols combined, she is then representing Israel as a whole. In other words, the sun, moon and stars (Jacob, wives and twelve sons) together make up the nation Israel.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Stars = Jacob's twelves sons

The woman being clothed with the sun, moon and twelve stars represents the nation Israel. It is the combination of those three symbols that make up Israel, which the woman is clothed with. Therefore, she figurately represents Israel.

I hope this is beneficial

KJV1611 · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

The identity of the woman is the woman that is 1) clothed with the sun, 2) has the moon under her feet, and wears a crown that contains 12 stars (NOT 11).

Who is the only woman in the Bible that 1) is clothed with the righteousness of the Sun 2) Has the moon under here feet and 3) wears a crown adorned with 12 disciples?

Ahwatukee · Aug 25, 2019

KJV1611 said:

The twelve stars has nothing to do with the disciples.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wives/wife

Eleven stars = Eleven of Jacob's son's with Joseph being number twelve.

The woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars = the nation Israel

In the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness to that place God has prepared for her where she will be cared for 1260 days which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They will remain there until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

KJV1611 · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

The twelve stars has nothing to do with the disciples.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wives/wife

Eleven stars = Eleven of Jacob's son's with Joseph being number twelve.

The woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars = the nation Israel

In the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel will flee out into the wilderness to that place God has prepared for her where she will be cared for 1260 days which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They will remain there until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

You didn’t answer my question, who is the only woman in the Bible that is clothed with the sun, has the moon under her feet and wears a crown with 12 stars? There’s only one woman that fits that description do you know who she is?

Nebuchadnezzer · Aug 25, 2019

cv5 said:

But what's the fun in that?

I'm happy too man! Thank you and all Glory to God !!!!

jb · Aug 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Good day JB,

Excuse me but that is a well known false teaching which I have debated many times before and which you are just repeating. The truth is that the devil and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth takes place as a result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet which is the 3rd woe and which takes place in the middle of the seven years and continues through the entire last 3 1/2 years of God's wrath, not Satan's nor man's. God's wrath begins with the opening of the 1st seal, the rider on the white horse, which is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21 and is completed at the pouring out of the 7th bowl judgment. The period that follows the gathering of the church is all God's wrath. God uses Satan, the beast and the false prophet to fulfill His purpose during that time. In other words everything that they do is apart of God's plan.

According to the Lord, the great tribulation period will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened no one would be left alive on the earth. And your claiming that "The Great Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God?" My advice to you is to stop reading the false teachings of men and trust in the word of God.

The tribulation period will be the fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy 'sevens' that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem found in Daniel 9:24-27. It will also be the time when God will pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. Therefore, since it is the fulfillment of God's decree, it is not Satan's nor man's wrath, but God's......

Someone like yourself, who can so twist the Scriptures to make 2Thess 2v1-12 support a pre-tribulation advent and rapture, when it clearly teaches a POST-tribulation Advent and rapture (of the Church, the Body of Christ); when you come to The Revelation of Jesus Christ and express your interpretation of it you enter a world of pure fantasy!

cv5 · Aug 25, 2019

jb said:

Well....lets untwist them for you shall we?

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/2-thessalonians-2-3/

"Tommy pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Tommy presented that was most convicting to me was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:1

The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
The Tyndale Bible (1526)
The Coverdale Bible (1535)
The Cranmer Bible (1539)
The Great Bible (1540)
The Beeches Bible (1576)
The Geneva Bible (1608)

Tommy also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”

The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Tommy Ice made that I thought was significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:2

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion.”3 And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].”

This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church."

The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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