Tired of the Big LIE

[3Scoreand10]

In addition, 1 Timothy 6:3 Paul essentially says any man who teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

Wow! You just described yourself to a T

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Word_Swordsman where does "the flesh serving the law of sin puts one out of covenant with Christ" come from?

I've already answered that, posting Romans. Read chapters 6, 7, and 8. It appears folks prefer to ignore those scriptures, cherry picking a few they like.

Here's my answer:


Romans 8:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I'll ask you in turn, how anyone can go ahead and let the flesh serve the law of sin, yet be acceptable to God? The New Covenant makes a very strong case that if you are in Christ/Christ is in you, then your flesh can't be found serving another master. It's a matter of choosing a master. Serving the Devil through minding the flesh will not let anyone inside the Kingdom of Heaven. The "flesh" is supposed to be crucified, without turning back to it.

 

[posthuman]

so...

are you perfect, Jason?

are you completely without sin? ready and qualified to 'cast the first stone' ?

i confess i'm not. daily.

is this a cat we'd like to keep in the bag?

i think that's a bad approach. kitties need some freedom.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:9)

note the "IF" ↑

 

[KJV1611]

I've already answered that, posting Romans. Read chapters 6, 7, and 8. It appears folks prefer to ignore those scriptures, cherry picking a few they like.

Here's my answer:


Romans 8:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I'll ask you in turn, how anyone can go ahead and let the flesh serve the law of sin, yet be acceptable to God? The New Covenant makes a very strong case that if you are in Christ/Christ is in you, then your flesh can't be found serving another master. It's a matter of choosing a master. Serving the Devil through minding the flesh will not let anyone inside the Kingdom of Heaven. The "flesh" is supposed to be crucified, without turning back to it.

What about verse 9. It says that believers are in the spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. I don't see a spigot there. I don't see that I have the ability to hop back and forth between the flesh and the spirit. If the spirit of God dwells in me then I walk in the spirit. If the Spirit is not is not in me then I'm not Christs'. Would you agree with that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Jeff_56]

well, just an interjection here for later research and followup by those seeking --

jesus once told his faithful disciples with him, who stayed with him and later testified of him after his resurrection,

if you start gathering to yourself 'things' like houses, clothes, baseball cards, money, securities, stocks, bonds, or other worldly stuff,
then as you start saving that worldly stuff (that moth and rust can destroy, or that thieves can take),
as you start collecting worldly stuff
then you love for me that you have had in your heart will start diminishing
and
if you don't give up your earthly treasure on earth but let it remain and accumulate as if it was worth anything,
then
the love you had for me in your heart will continue to diminish until it is as nothing.......

 

[Word_Swordsman]

So you are a "righteous sinner"? I don't connect with that concept. I'll stick with believe and repent of sin. That' how they preached it in the Bible. If we are not willing to repent, to let our flesh die with Christ, then doesn't that leave us unsaved sinners?

I have already received the benefit of God's grace, that is, Jesus is my Savior and Lord by grace through faith. So now I have been made eligible to declare I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I will not say I am a righteous sinner, as that fails the message of a huge part of the Bible.
Philippians 1:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Sinners can't do that. Sinners offend all the time, not repenting to stop being sinners, not being without offense till that day of Christ that is hopefully near.

Then don't have fellowship with me, that's on you. Jesus has fellowship with me and that's the only thing that matters.

In my two months here I have been blessed to make the acquaintance of some wonderful children of God, in fact, God willing, one brother and I will be meeting for worship and a baseball game this Summer. Imagine that, two sinners in fellowship together in the midst of many other sinners, both in worship and at the game. And what did Jesus say about two or more gathering in His name? That's right, Jesus will be with us also.

And for the record, what do you think is more humble, to admit you're a sinner in need of God's grace and guidance or telling the world you're not a sinner and not in need of God's grace and guidance? That's actually a rhetorical question.

 

[KJV1611]

What about verse 9. It says that believers are in the spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. I don't see a spigot there. I don't see that I have the ability to hop back and forth between the flesh and the spirit. If the spirit of God dwells in me then I walk in the spirit. If the Spirit is not is not in me then I'm not Christs'. Would you agree with that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Any comment on this Jason? You were trying to tell me that abstaining from sin is what allowed me to walk in the spirit.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

What about verse 9. It says that believers are in the spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us. I don't see a spigot there. I don't see that I have the ability to hop back and forth between the flesh and the spirit. If the spirit of God dwells in me then I walk in the spirit. If the Spirit is not is not in me then I'm not Christs'. Would you agree with that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I agree. It is the Holy Spirit who won't stay in a temple where the person doesn't tend to sin by repenting of it. On the gentle side of it we have the commandments of Paul in Ephesians 4, centered around Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So far nobody is responding to my posting of Hebrews 10:25-27 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[SUP]30 [/SUP] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Nearby that passage is much exhortation to keep holding fast to faith in Christ Jesus. It is a lifelong challenge. It simply isn't enough to get your name on a church roll at age 13, told you are saved and always will be, then resting on that saying without meeting the commandments of Jesus or the apostles. Many, many people have been deluded to believe they can be a sinner while the Spirit hangs around in us hoping we will repent. When He leaves, the seal of redemption goes with him. He is that seal. It isn't that he would leave over occasional sins, given that we don't keep sinning over and over without repentance. David prayed earnestly that God would not remove his spirit from him like happened to Saul. God entered Solomon's Temple, but left it when Israel's sin was too great. It's against his holiness to associate with sinners. He will let some hear the gospel, hopefully respond with faith, and be converted from sin to a life of righteousness.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Any comment on this Jason? You were trying to tell me that abstaining from sin is what allowed me to walk in the spirit.

I'll add my own comment. Walking in sin will keep that person from walking in the spirit, God having no part in him. We are commanded to abstain from sin. Even some specific sins in Acts 15:29, as determined by the Holy Spirit. So what happens to a person refusing to abstain? Their body dies but their spirit goes to heaven for eternity with holy God? No.

 

[posthuman]

Any comment on this Jason? You were trying to tell me that abstaining from sin is what allowed me to walk in the spirit.

i think he may be waiting until he's sinless before he replies. good on 'im. the Lord's blood covers that, to be sure, but to keep ones self from sin is the noblest of causes.
i am learning that i should rid myself of impure thoughts before i post as well.

 

[Sirk]

It's funny how they take what we are saying to the extreme. Like we are advocating killing puppies every day and then repenting knowing full well we will kill more puppies tomorrow when what we are saying is that just like PH says, we will have impure thoughts and will sin against people in our lives just because of the sin nature that lives in us. It's not so black and white as some try to make it out to be. Some of us have has a lifetime of practice doing and thinking wrong. We are BEING transformed.

 

[Sirk]

If we don't have valleys and hardships in life then the devil ain't worried about you and if the devil ain't worried about you....I am worried about you.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Any comment on this Jason? You were trying to tell me that abstaining from sin is what allowed me to walk in the spirit.

Also, I've never met a person who could hike two different trails at once.

 

[PWE]

The Bible teaches that the Spirit dwells in the Christian in exactly the same way that the Father and the Son also dwell in the Christian. Notice the “if” in the first 3 verses:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:9-11)

Christ is in us through His Word:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (John 14:23)

We are in Christ through His Word.

"Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father" (I John 2:24).

Jesus says His words are Spirit and are life:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Let the words of Christ dwell in you and be filled with the Spirit as Paul teaches in these parallel passages:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, (Ephesians 5:18-19)

 

[Utah]

So you are a "righteous sinner"? I don't connect with that concept. I'll stick with believe and repent of sin. That' how they preached it in the Bible. If we are not willing to repent, to let our flesh die with Christ, then doesn't that leave us unsaved sinners?

I have already received the benefit of God's grace, that is, Jesus is my Savior and Lord by grace through faith. So now I have been made eligible to declare I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I will not say I am a righteous sinner, as that fails the message of a huge part of the Bible.
Philippians 1:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Sinners can't do that. Sinners offend all the time, not repenting to stop being sinners, not being without offense till that day of Christ that is hopefully near.

I do repent all the time and I bear good fruit, but I make mistakes. I'm not without sin.

 

[Sirk]

The mentality behind thinking that we can be perfect is what creates alcoholism, sex addiction eating disorders and a whole host of problems in people. We are free to struggle. All we have to do is struggle well. I don't need to be "good".....nor am I, without Jesus.....I am simply loved. This argument is fruitless and frankly is an unwise thing to participate in any longer, as far as I am concerned. You perfecto pushers hurt people.

 

[dcontroversal]

So you believe you can be out of fellowship with Christ but yet you still have the Holy Spirit and can sin while having the Spirit and it is okay to God? That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things. Such a thing would not be possible because God does not condone the evil actions of others. God is Holy and good. If you don't have fellowship with the Son there is no life is what 1 John 5:12 says. There is not another verse that nullifies 1 John 5:12. He that does not have the Son does not have life. Period. There is no need to add to that verse. 1 John 5:12 stands on it's own just fine.

You will never understand until you figure out that it is the SPIRIT that is born of God and the sinful BODY of FLESH is still here until it gets brought up in the resurrection and or changed.....YOU TOTALLY MISS this..........

 

[dcontroversal]

No, You make John say something he did not say.

He said whoever is born of God can not sin, because he has been born of God.

Now you want to twist what he said, and turn that back to mean something else.

Sorry bro. Take john at his word, or make him a liar. thats up to you.

Oh we all know which path he walks...the one that goes before the Lord bragging on works for salvation....with his (OSAS) LITE version.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I do repent all the time and I bear good fruit, but I make mistakes. I'm not without sin.

Amen to this one as well.....exactly!

 

[dcontroversal]

This suit and tie business is a red herring. I have my degree from a Southern Baptist Seminary, and I have attended many Southern Baptist churches. I have never seen a suit and tie being worn, and dresses also seem to be out of vogue. Southern Baptists, and other Baptists are concerned with the heart, not outward appearance.

In fact, the only time I hav seen a suit and tie being worn was one time we let the Pentecostal Church use our church in Sunday afternoons, because they had been flooded out. It seemed rather odd to me, but we still gave them building to use, despite their formality, and believing you can lose your salvation, because it was the Chrisitian thing to do!

It is amazing the kinds of ignorant and totally irrelevant arguments people use against eternal security.

Kenneth, although you are not a Catholic, your soteriology had been heavily informed by their works + faith doctrines.

Personally, I do believe we are instructed in the Word to obey God, and walk with Christ. But losing your salvation either means that God didn't save you, you did by your works, and that God is not omniscient, that he saves people and then lets them slip through his fingers, not realizing they would turn away from hm. And that is a very small God.

Well said and I agree.....!