Today’s Orthodox Churches vs. “The Way”

[JaumeJ]

The day set aside as a gift to all who believe, the Seventh Day, is not first mentioned in the laws written down by Moses.

The gift of the Seventh day is in Genesis, and given to us all to freely do our best to honor the Creator of all and the privilege to pass that special day with Him.

We may worship every day, every moment…...…….

 

[Blik]

Plenty of Messianic Jews go to services on Saturday if that's what you are talking about.

It is not REQUIRED for Gentiles to live according to the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law, though.

These include days and dietary laws.

Other elements of the Mosaic Law are moral and nature, and a believer who is being conformed to the image of Jesus would not want to disobey those as they reflect the image of God.

But, believers are not Jews. Judaizers are those that claim this.

They claim that observing ceremonial elements like days and diet are required for the New Covenant believer. Some even go so far as to claim that you need to get your foreskin snipped to be acceptable to God.

Hogwash!

Those individuals are Judaizers and Paul anathematized them in Galatians.

If a Messianic Jew wants to continue observance of days and dietary elements of the Mosaic Covenant, without claiming others are required to observe them, this is fine, but those who claim all must observe them are Judaizers and fall under Paul's anathema.

Such individuals probably don't know Jesus, and thus don't know the Father. They don't believe in justification by faith alone, therefore they are accursed.

This is regardless of how religious they appear, with their external observances. Their heart has not been changed.

What I am talking about? Learning how Christ wants us to live is what I am talking about. The people of The Way lived at a time that some of them knew Christ as the man who lived on this earth, I think learning how they worshiped would be enlightening.

You seem to think that the difference in our worship today from them is that they followed Judaism practices, and we are told not to. You are including everything that applies to dates of the year to those practices. I think we should question that. We use dates of the years in our current worship practice like December 25 yet we call their using dates Judaism.

We have little information about this church of Christ called The Way. I have found lots of what the gentile leaders of the Christian church wrote about, but little about The Way. I did read a copy of a report given to a Roman Emperor (before 325) that said the members of the new sect loved and cared for each other and were not only harmless to Rome but admirable people.

The Messianic Church started after the dead sea scrolls were discovered. These scrolls gave information about the people of the bible and their culture that opened up understanding of scripture that had been lost. Through the writings found there the languages were found and what Hebrew words meant to them at that time. I haven't heard of any Messianic who uses Judaism. They believe in scripture, all of it, and study of scripture is their goal. You cannot believe in scripture and believe in such as circumcision. However, it is possible to believe in scripture and question tossing out Passover, the Sabbath, and all dates. Only a certain interpretation of one scripture backs up this practice, and that is relating to judging.

You are right, according to Luke many of the first Christians believed in Judaism practices, and scripture tells us that we are not to use these.

 

[Nehemiah6]

History has been filled with the persecutions of the Jews by the Christian church. Today no Christian would go to synagogue.

For a Christian (including Hebrew Christians) to go to a synagogue would be a proclamation that Christ is NOT the true Messiah who died for his or her sins. The Jews who practice Judaism go to synagogues because they REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah and Savior of the world. They are lost and they need to be converted.

The persecution of Jews is a separate issue. There is no denying that Jews have been persecuted over the last 2,000 years. But that is not what true Christians have done.

 

[Blik]

For a Christian (including Hebrew Christians) to go to a synagogue would be a proclamation that Christ is NOT the true Messiah who died for his or her sins. The Jews who practice Judaism go to synagogues because they REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah and Savior of the world. They are lost and they need to be converted.

The persecution of Jews is a separate issue. There is no denying that Jews have been persecuted over the last 2,000 years. But that is not what true Christians have done.

Yet Paul and Christ went to the synagogue. Jews believe in a Messiah, they just don't believe the person who lived as Christ was the Messiah.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yet Paul and Christ went to the synagogue. Jews believe in a Messiah, they just don't believe the person who lived as Christ was the Messiah.

"...they just don't believe the person who lived as Christ was the Messiah". Exactly. And that means they have rejected Christ and rejected the Gospel. Which means they have condemned themselves.

1. Until the crucifixion of Christ, the Law of Moses was in effect, and therefore the synagogues were in effect, and therefore Christ attended them on sabbath days. All that came to an end the day Christ died and the temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom by God.

2. Paul went to the synagogues throughout the Roman empire on sabbath days to preach the Gospel. That was the right thing to do in order to reach the Jews scattered outside Palestine. But Gentiles were also in attendance and many were saved.

3. AT THE SAME TIME HE ESTABLISHED CHRISTIAN CHURCHES (ASSEMBLIES) APART FROM THE SYNAGOGUES. Hence the letters to the churches.

How is it that you have such a poor understanding of (1) the New Covenant, (2) the Church, and (3) the rebellion of the Jews who continued to attend the synagogues but rejected Christ? Today the synagogue is a mockery of Christ.

 

[Blik]

"...they just don't believe the person who lived as Christ was the Messiah". Exactly. And that means they have rejected Christ and rejected the Gospel. Which means they have condemned themselves.

1. Until the crucifixion of Christ, the Law of Moses was in effect, and therefore the synagogues were in effect, and therefore Christ attended them on sabbath days. All that came to an end the day Christ died and the temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom by God.

2. Paul went to the synagogues throughout the Roman empire on sabbath days to preach the Gospel. That was the right thing to do in order to reach the Jews scattered outside Palestine. But Gentiles were also in attendance and many were saved.

3. AT THE SAME TIME HE ESTABLISHED CHRISTIAN CHURCHES (ASSEMBLIES) APART FROM THE SYNAGOGUES. Hence the letters to the churches.

How is it that you have such a poor understanding of (1) the New Covenant, (2) the Church, and (3) the rebellion of the Jews who continued to attend the synagogues but rejected Christ? Today the synagogue is a mockery of Christ.

Even though we are do not receive salvation through the law of Moses I do believe that this law is part of creation and God wants us to obey it. To use the words "the law is not in effect" does not fit this if it is a fact, and i believe it is.

True Christians are not anti-Semetic but they have a history of taking on the judgement of the Jews. From my study and meditation on the book of Romans it seems to me that we are to let God take care of the Jews.
The results of our taking on the judgement of them, it seems to me has only damaged our walk with the lord. It got so bad that by the time 300 years had gone by Constantine could write that we must not do anything they did, and it was the reason for replacing Passover with Easter telling God that man's idea were superior the God's ideas.

You cannot follow scripture and be kosher and physically circumcised. But I should think it is possible to follow scripture and believe
God was speaking to us today when God inspired the teachings of the OT. It is the foundation of Christ.

I think the majority of orthodox Christians have a very poor understanding of covenants in general, including the new covenant. It is like the church has an axe in hand, saying the Lord cannot give anything "in addition" but must destroy all that was before. As if they are not capable of growth. The new covenant did not first destroy all human relationship with God and then start new, it added a wonderful blessing. They seem to ignore all Paul tells them about the rebellion of the Jews and are gunning for anyone who does not see all their way which is a way opposed to what Paul tells us.

 

[JaumeJ]

From Paul in Romans I have the understanding that a true praiser of God is a true Jew. That is to say all who are true Jews are praisers of Yahweh, God.

In this sense, according to Paul, all who believe and praise God are Jews, by translation that is.

 

[Blik]

From Paul in Romans I have the understanding that a true praiser of God is a true Jew. That is to say all who are true Jews are praisers of Yahweh, God.

In this sense, according to Paul, all who believe and praise God are Jews, by translation that is.

The new covenant guided man to the true worship of God, but it did not change God in any way. There is no scripture in the entire bible that tells us the it was works and not grace that brought salvation, even under the sacrificial system. In Galatians it calls such as idea foolish, as it speaks to the Galatians who didn't accept Christ.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Paul also tells us that we gentiles who have faith in the Lord are sons of Abraham, spiritually so we receive the same blessings and are Israel.

Galatians 3: 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

 

[Dino246]

The new covenant guided man to the true worship of God, but it did not change God in any way. There is no scripture in the entire bible that tells us the it was works and not grace that brought salvation, even under the sacrificial system. In Galatians it calls such as idea foolish, as it speaks to the Galatians who didn't accept Christ.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

You have misunderstood the letter to the Galatians. Paul is not writing to people living in Galatia who didn't accept Christ, as you claim, but to those who believed that obedience to the Law was to be added to belief in Christ. You can't be severed from Christ (5:4) if you were never connected to Him in the first place. You never had the Spirit if you never accepted Christ.

 

[Dino246]

Even though we are do not receive salvation through the law of Moses I do believe that this law is part of creation and God wants us to obey it. To use the words "the law is not in effect" does not fit this if it is a fact, and i believe it is.

The Law is not part of creation. God finished His work of creating in just six days. The Law was only given to the Israelites, not to all humanity. God does not intend us to obey a Law that is impossible for us to obey.

Apparently, you are still under the delusion that obedience to the Law is possible.

 

[Blik]

The Law is not part of creation. God finished His work of creating in just six days. The Law was only given to the Israelites, not to all humanity. God does not intend us to obey a Law that is impossible for us to obey.

Apparently, you are still under the delusion that obedience to the Law is possible.

However did you come up with the idea that my belief is in the possibility of perfection in the human race? I never ever posted such a thing. That would say I belief man can become gods. We seem to have some basic differences in our interpretation of scripture, and it often pertains to law although it also stems from your insistence on English being precise in meaning.

I don't think the law was established by the reports of Moses, but Moses was given what the law of the world actually was, very like if Moses reported on gravity. I also believe that scripture is all to mankind not only to Israel. God used Israel as God showed us His character but He wants us all to know Him. Israel was used for us. We are told we are sons of Abraham through faith in God.

 

[Blik]

You have misunderstood the letter to the Galatians. Paul is not writing to people living in Galatia who didn't accept Christ, as you claim, but to those who believed that obedience to the Law was to be added to belief in Christ. You can't be severed from Christ (5:4) if you were never connected to Him in the first place. You never had the Spirit if you never accepted Christ.

You have a wonderful knowledge of scripture, I do thank you. But we interpret scripture differently often. I wasn't aware that the Galatians had been visited by Paul and were Christians, but the meaning of this scripture stands. They were using the works of the law like diet and circumcision to receive the spirit instead of a guide to help obedience and that had never worked.

 

[Dino246]

However did you come up with the idea that my belief is in the possibility of perfection in the human race? I never ever posted such a thing. That would say I belief man can become gods.

I did not claim that you believe in the "possibility of perfection in the human race", or anything like "men can become gods." Honestly, Blik, this is like talking through a bad translator. Why can't you just quote me directly and leave it at that?

We seem to have some basic differences in our interpretation of scripture, and it often pertains to law although it also stems from your insistence on English being precise in meaning.

Yes, I insist on English being precise in its meaning. What's the point of attempting to communicate if you can (mis)interpret my words however you like? I use the words that best represent the ideas I have. Don't you?

I don't think the law was established by the reports of Moses, but Moses was given what the law of the world actually was, very like if Moses reported on gravity. I also believe that scripture is all to mankind not only to Israel.

No, Moses was given the Law by God, directly; he was not given "the law of the world" (where do you get that idea?). The Scripture is for all, but the covenant was only for Israel. There's a huge difference.

 

[Dino246]

You have a wonderful knowledge of scripture, I do thank you. But we interpret scripture differently often. I wasn't aware that the Galatians had been visited by Paul and were Christians, but the meaning of this scripture stands. They were using the works of the law like diet and circumcision to receive the spirit instead of a guide to help obedience and that had never worked.

Before Paul wrote the letter, the Judaizers had successfully deceived the Galatians into believing that they needed to ADD 'obedience to the Law' to 'faith in Christ'. Did they receive the Spirit by hearing with faith the gospel of Jesus Christ? Yes. Did obedience to the Law add anything to them that was not already theirs in Christ? No; on the contrary, it took them out of the grace of God.

They were not "trying to receive the spirit" through obedience. Paul was saying that they already had the Spirit through hearing with faith the message of the gospel! Paul said nothing at all about them "using the Law as a guide to help obedience".