Tongues Again???

[presidente]

A widow is A SINGLE CHRISTIAN PERSON, so what Paul told her about seeking a mate would apply to ALL SINGLE CHRISTIAN PERSONS.

You are making a leap the text does not support. This is based only on your assertion. It is not unreasonable to think that marriage should function the way it did pre-Mosaic covenant (which continued under the Mosaic covenant.) I Corinthians 7 has a section on virgins getting married which speaks of giving a virgin in marriage. It does not say that the widow is given in marriage. She may marry whoever she wills.

The Bible does not divide people into 'single, divorced widows.' It has categories like virgin, defiled woman, widow, etc. (E.g. in the passage about priestly marriage regulations in the Old Testament. Priests could only marry virgins or widows of other priests.)

God gives us an amazing amount of freedom in our choices in life...as long as we do not sin against God in our endeavors.

I would agree with that.

In the case of Isaac and Rebecca, it was a unique situation and cannot really be used as something that we think will happen to us.

Jesus gave some great teachings on prayer, and Abraham and his servant probably had no idea of this. Jesus said all things are possible to him that believes. But, even so, they prayed, and the Lord directed who Isaac was to marry.

God may specifically direct a couple of they pray for it. My wife and I were both praying for direction. He can also direct people marry specific individuals if He so chooses, or direct any other area of an individual's life.

I remember a young Christian lady years past that stood before a lot of other young ladies and told us all that God had told her to marry her husband when he was not saved and was alcoholic. God did not tell her that because a Christian can only marry a Christian and marriage is the choice of the individual.

People need to be very careful with the "God wants me to" stuff. Its ironic to me to see people who don't believe God communicates outside of the Bible to ascribe motivations to God that He hasn't revealed in the Bible or elsewhere. There are people who will say that God did this or that, or that such and such was God's will because it happened. We shouldn't prophesy falsely, and we should not be false witnesses of God, either.

 

[samuel23]

The text absolutely supports it. Paul was instructing a single Christian person(or persons) about marriage and he said that YOU CAN MARRY WHOEVER YOU WANT...as long as it is in the Lord. This is making a clear statement that the Christian person is allowed to chose who they want to marry as long as they marry in the Lord(another Christian). Whether the particular person in question had been previously married is totally irrelevant because a single person in the sight of God is a single person. Anyway, I suppose if you can't see it, you can't see it.

 

[VCO]

Presi: The bible tells us that we can marry whoever we want to as long as it is in the Lord. The command from God to a single person is, that they must marry another Christian(a real Christian), after that the choice is yours, that is the word of God on marriage from the New Testament. So why would someone believe that God told them who to marry when the word of God has said that God has given that decision to the individual, with the exception that they must marry another Christian. I went through a period of time as a Christian when I would say, God told me this or that. That was many years ago and I have found over time that God rarely speaks to us except through His word and that it is very dangerous to be listening for a voice, as it were from God, to guide us.

Sam, there are exceptions tho, as I have heard HIS audible Voice two times in my life. Both times it was a simple command, and the muscles in my body reacted to HIS voice instantly without even thinking about it. The first time was one word, back in the early 80's and the second time was three words in the mid 90's.

The first time was when my wife was in a drug rehab center for addiction to pain pills. The week before she went in, my wife was Healed in answer to prayer with ASOLUTELY NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS. When I told her Doctor that, he said "If you believe that, you are either a fool or a liar, because I know how many pills she was taking." I figured out real quick, that the Doctor was not a Christian. Then he ordered her to go the rehab center anyhow, and yes he had money in that center as part owner. One day I got called in to that center for a so-called group therapy session. They immediately started picking on us about our Faith, and when we tried to tell them that she was healed, the picking turned into VICIOUS RIDICULE. It was at that moment this booming Voice said in my head, "WALK!" My muscles reacted to that voice without thinking, and it was almost as if the chair had instantly become electrified. By the time I could think, I found myself on my feet, and as I looked over at my wife, she was standing also. I asked her, "Are you Ready?"; and she said YES. Once we gathered her things and got to my vehicle, I noticed a tire was flat. As I hurriedly was changing the tire, and as I was tightening the last two Lug Nuts, I finally asked her: "Did you hear anything in there?" She said: "Yes, just one word, . . . "WALK!" I replied: "THAT'S IT, WE ARE OUT OF HERE!"

The second time I heard HIS booming Voice, HE scared the daylights out of me. I was driving back to Nebraska from the California Coast near Oregon, to pick up three of our Grand-kids to come out for a Summer Vacation. I had to break it up with two nights in motels. The first night I stopped in Elko, NV. In the morning after breakfast, I was pulling onto the I-80 on-ramp accelerating as I noticed a hitchhiker standing almost on the edge of the road. I swung wide to go around him as I approached interstate speed. SUDDENLY, there came that same booming Voice in my head, that I heard over a decade earlier. HE yelled: "PICK HIM UP!" My muscles reacted INSTANTLY once again, and I had the brakes on as hard as I could, with all four wheels screaming as they slid to a stop on the side of the road. I was still shaking like a leaf, when the hitchhiker came running up to the car, opened the passenger side door, and asked: "Are you giving me a ride?" I replied, "YOU GET IN THIS CAR, BECAUSE GOD JUST TOLD ME TO PICK YOU UP!" To make a long story short, he rode with me all day, and I had the joy of leading him to the Lord. He even excitedly listened to about three hours of Bible Teaching tapes on the Book of Revelation, and I gave him all ten of those tapes that I had with me, before he got out to go to south to Denver at Laramie, WY.

Does that make me special? NO! That makes me the dummy that HE had to yell at, to stop me from doing what HE did not want me to continue doing.

 

[samuel23]

Great story VCO, I know those kinds of things can happen, I have had a few such experiences myself. God is well able to speak to us if He wants to, however it is not something we can make happen.

 

[presidente]

The text absolutely supports it. Paul was instructing a single Christian person(or persons) about marriage and he said that YOU CAN MARRY WHOEVER YOU WANT...as long as it is in the Lord.

Moses was married. God told a married man to put his hand in his garment and it would come out leprous. Are you married. Put your hand in your shirt and see if it comes out leprous.

God was speaking specifically to Moses. Paul's instructions to widows are specifically to widows. Earlier in the chapter, he dealt with the issue of virgins marrying (being given in marriage.)

This is making a clear statement that the Christian person is allowed to chose who they want to marry as long as they marry in the Lord(another Christian). Whether the particular person in question had been previously married is totally irrelevant because a single person in the sight of God is a single person. Anyway, I suppose if you can't see it, you can't see it.

We've got a marriage thread going. Let's discuss it there. Father's gave virgin daughters in marriage in the Old Testament. This was also the Greek culture. That would have been a given for his audience. If Paul were challenging the cultural norm, he would have had to explain it in detail because the readers would not picked up on it if he only made the comment about widows. We could discuss this in the marriage thread since the topic has come up and it is more related to that topic.

 

[presidente]

Sam, there are exceptions tho, as I have heard HIS audible Voice two times in my life. Both times it was a simple command, and the muscles in my body reacted to HIS voice instantly without even thinking about it. The first time was one word, back in the early 80's and the second time was three words in the mid 90's.

The first time was when my wife was in a drug rehab center for addiction to pain pills. The week before she went in, my wife was Healed in answer to prayer with ASOLUTELY NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS. When I told her Doctor that, he said "If you believe that, you are either a fool or a liar, because I know how many pills she was taking." I figured out real quick, that the Doctor was not a Christian. Then he ordered her to go the rehab center anyhow, and yes he had money in that center as part owner. One day I got called in to that center for a so-called group therapy session. They immediately started picking on us about our Faith, and when we tried to tell them that she was healed, the picking turned into VICIOUS RIDICULE. It was at that moment this booming Voice said in my head, "WALK!" My muscles reacted to that voice without thinking, and it was almost as if the chair had instantly become electrified. By the time I could think, I found myself on my feet, and as I looked over at my wife, she was standing also. I asked her, "Are you Ready?"; and she said YES. Once we gathered her things and got to my vehicle, I noticed a tire was flat. As I hurriedly was changing the tire, and as I was tightening the last two Lug Nuts, I finally asked her: "Did you hear anything in there?" She said: "Yes, just one word, . . . "WALK!" I replied: "THAT'S IT, WE ARE OUT OF HERE!"

The second time I heard HIS booming Voice, HE scared the daylights out of me. I was driving back to Nebraska from the California Coast near Oregon, to pick up three of our Grand-kids to come out for a Summer Vacation. I had to break it up with two nights in motels. The first night I stopped in Elko, NV. In the morning after breakfast, I was pulling onto the I-80 on-ramp accelerating as I noticed a hitchhiker standing almost on the edge of the road. I swung wide to go around him as I approached interstate speed. SUDDENLY, there came that same booming Voice in my head, that I heard over a decade earlier. HE yelled: "PICK HIM UP!" My muscles reacted INSTANTLY once again, and I had the brakes on as hard as I could, with all four wheels screaming as they slid to a stop on the side of the road. I was still shaking like a leaf, when the hitchhiker came running up to the car, opened the passenger side door, and asked: "Are you giving me a ride?" I replied, "YOU GET IN THIS CAR, BECAUSE GOD JUST TOLD ME TO PICK YOU UP!" To make a long story short, he rode with me all day, and I had the joy of leading him to the Lord. He even excitedly listened to about three hours of Bible Teaching tapes on the Book of Revelation, and I gave him all ten of those tapes that I had with me, before he got out to go to south to Denver at Laramie, WY.

Does that make me special? NO! That makes me the dummy that HE had to yell at, to stop me from doing what HE did not want me to continue doing.

I got no problems with testimonies like that. But we should realize that when God talks to people about things like this, it is 'extra-Biblical revelation' in that the Bible doesn't tell us every time God will tell someone to pick up a hitchhiker that would ever occur in history. But it is not against the Bible for God to speak to people like that. We should expect such things to happen now that the Spirit has been poured out.

I heard a testimony from a man who said the Lord was directing him to pick up a hitchiker and he was saying, "But I never pick up hitchikers." He hadn't seen the hitchiker yet. Then the hitchiker gets in the car. It was an AWOL soldier who had killed someone. The man who'd picked him up was a trained police officer (not sure if he was active.) Anyway, the AWOL soldier pulled a gun on him. He was right out of basic training and strong, but the police officer managed to wrestle the gun out of his hand. His picking the man up got him off the street.

He said he couldn't even remember the details of the trial when it was all over, but the detailed way in which he'd testified helped put the man away. He said it was like a TV drama. The guy yelled across the courtroom after sentencing, saying he was going to come for him when he got out.

I don't get holding to the doctrine of cessationism, though... which contradicts the personal experience.... yet still holding to the experience as genuine. It doesn't make sense to me. Just throw out the cessationism and stick with the Bible.

 

[wolfwint]

~Isa 28:11　 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.　
Isa 28:12　 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is
the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

~
Heb 4:1　 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us
of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.


Heb 4:10　 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

How else can one do the works of God? Not just tongues, but all the gifts. I'm convinced one begins with language of Spirit. The new creation man is Spiritual, in the image of God.


　

　

Hi stonesoffire, what Jesaja 28 has to do with the gift of speaking in tongues? My problem is, that nobody can answer my question wether the gift of speaking in tongues is given as a gift like all others mentioned in the NT epistels ore is speaking in tongues given as proof to have the baptism with the Holy Spirit like the pentecostals and charismatics teach.

 

[shittim]

Actually He speaks to everybody all the time, sometimes a voice, sometimes a "nudge". I believe it is Job 33-14, "G-d speaks now one way, now another, though you don't perceive it".
I'm not going to settle in to this 35 page argument since that isn't how we find Him, we find Him in peace, not argument.
We don't find Him by arguing about Him, we find Him in talking with Him, He stands and knocks on everyones heart, some let Him in, most don't.
I know this weeks teaching from Andrew Wommack has been a blessing on hearing the voice of G-d, he can be found on internet as well as TV. Hope it is ok to mention it without violating any rules.
Commit your day to Him before you set your foot on the floor from your rest, ask Him to guide your day, He is always faithful to will do so, the problem is NEVER on His end.
Blessings

 

[stonesoffire]

Hi stonesoffire, what Jesaja 28 has to do with the gift of speaking in tongues? My problem is, that nobody can answer my question wether the gift of speaking in tongues is given as a gift like all others mentioned in the NT epistels ore is speaking in tongues given as proof to have the baptism with the Holy Spirit like the pentecostals and charismatics teach.

Isaiah 28 in the amplified bible says that the stammering tongues that they speak is the rest from mans work to do Gods work. When rejected? Then religion is just precept by precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little. Dry. It's life in the Spiritual realm. That's the rest.

I see the gift of tongues as a means of speaking a message to a fellowship by the Spirit which then is interpreted so as to be understood. Different from ones prayer language.

My personal opinion is all that have received the baptism will speak in tongues, prophesy, or speak a word of wisdom and knowledge that is not from the person but through the person by the Spirit. There will be an expression some way through the voice. That person will know it is from Spirit and not self.

And my personal opinion is these gifts through the voice is evidence that one is baptized initially. Other gifts may be had too.

Some people have a few words but needs a release through the laying on of hands.

 

[zone]

iI's one thing to be skeptical about speaking in tongues but please for your sake don't make a mockery of it. Otherwise you will be liable to be judged for it

judged for what?
only pointing out that jangling noises are not only not biblical "tongues", it's blasphemy

 

[VCO]

iI's one thing to be skeptical about speaking in tongues but please for your sake don't make a mockery of it. Otherwise you will be liable to be judged for it

Please for your sake, learn to test and discern the spirit that is generating it. They have the exact same kind of ecstatic utterances in Hinduism and in other false religions of the world.

 

[shittim]

And we know the enemy seeks to deceive the believers, what better way than make those who have stopped at
salvation from growing than to mimic His gift. It is essential to develop His gift of discernment.
best wishes

 

[VCO]

Hi stonesoffire, what Jesaja 28 has to do with the gift of speaking in tongues? My problem is, that nobody can answer my question wether the gift of speaking in tongues is given as a gift like all others mentioned in the NT epistels ore is speaking in tongues given as proof to have the baptism with the Holy Spirit like the pentecostals and charismatics teach.

The miraculous signs actually were the Lord working through the Apostles to be a sign for unbelieving Jews, that the new words {our N.T.} were really part of GOD's Word just like the the O.T.

Mark 16:20 (GWT)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The disciples spread {the Good News} everywhere. The Lord worked with them. He confirmed his word by the miraculous signs that accompanied it.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Mark 16:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And he said unto them (the Apostles), Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And these signs shall follow them (NOT YOU, the Apostles)that believe;
In my name shall they (NOT YOU, the Apostles) cast out devils;
they (NOT YOU, the Apostles) shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP] They (NOT YOU, the Apostles) shall take up serpents; and if they (NOT YOU, the Apostles) drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they (NOT YOU, the Apostles) shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


IF THE MIRACULOUS SIGNS WERE NOT FOR US TO DO, WHERE DO WE FIT INTO GOD'S PLAN?

James 5:14-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.


NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY THE ELDERS WILL USE (THAT ERRONEOUSLY SO-CALLED) GIFT OF HEALING.

When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, the Truth becomes obvious. The problem today is that many to interpret Scripture, are letting person experience over rule what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[samuel23]

I was in the Pentecostal movement for many years and it took me a long time to really look at some of the things they teach and honestly compare those things to the bible. None of the bible teachers of the New Testament Peter,Paul, James, John, Jude, would be considered to be Pentecostals if they were alive today because none of then ever taught Christians that they needed a second baptizing in the Spirit. The NT teaches that a person is baptized in the Spirit at conversion and it does not teach that you receive the Spirit again later at the baptism of the Spirit. Teaching Christians to seek to be baptized in the Spirit after they have already received the Spirit is not really the bible. Also teaching then that after this experience they from that point on are filled with the Spirit, the bible teaches no such thing.

 

[presidente]

The miraculous signs actually were the Lord working through the Apostles to be a sign for unbelieving Jews, that the new words {our N.T.} were really part of GOD's Word just like the the O.T.

Where does the Bible teach that miraculous signs were exclusively for unbelieving Jews. I can't find that, but I can find scripture to contradict it. One example is Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15 telling the other apostles about the signs they did among the Gentiles. I could also point to the healing at Lystra and the gifts of the Spirit functioning in Corinth among former pagans.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible that the signs were to confirm the New Testament as written down as a book. I can find that the signs confirmed the same message of the Gospel over and over again as it was preached to different audiences.

I can see the apostles doing signs in scripture. But I see others doing them as well.

The Gospel is still being preached.

Mark 16:20 (GWT)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The disciples spread {the Good News} everywhere. The Lord worked with them. He confirmed his word by the miraculous signs that accompanied it.

Loose translations can leave out important details in the text.

The KJV says,
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I bolded 'preach' to highlight the fact that the signs and wonders confirmed the word as it was preached. It doesn't say it confirms the book written about the preaching.

 

[presidente]

I was in the Pentecostal movement for many years and it took me a long time to really look at some of the things they teach and honestly compare those things to the bible. None of the bible teachers of the New Testament Peter,Paul, James, John, Jude, would be considered to be Pentecostals if they were alive today because none of then ever taught Christians that they needed a second baptizing in the Spirit. The NT teaches that a person is baptized in the Spirit at conversion and it does not teach that you receive the Spirit again later at the baptism of the Spirit.

If the scriptures clearly taught that one was baptized with the Spirit at conversion, we wouldn't have this debate. Show me one scripture that teaches that.

The scripture teaches the Spirit baptizes the saints into one body. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

There is also a reference to the seal of the Spirit.

Luke emphasizes Spirit-empowerment in his references to baptism with the Holy Spirit. Paul doesn't use 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' in reference to the Spirit's role in soteriology. Even in the Gospel of Luke, Zecharias prophesies after he is filled with the Spirit.

 

[presidente]

VCO wrote,

NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY THE ELDERS WILL USE (THAT ERRONEOUSLY SO-CALLED) GIFT OF HEALING.

When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, the Truth becomes obvious. The problem today is that many to interpret Scripture, are letting person experience over rule what the Scriptures actually say.

God can heal in response to a prayer from an elder or in response to a prayer from 'regular believer'. He can heal when when an elder anoints with oil. He can healed through the gifts of healing as well.

There is no reason to think that because someone is an elder, that the Spirit is somehow forbidden from operating in the gifts of healing through him.

I think a lot of cessationists base their ideas on false dichotomies, creating contradictions in their mind where none exist in the text.

 

[presidente]

Please for your sake, learn to test and discern the spirit that is generating it. They have the exact same kind of ecstatic utterances in Hinduism and in other false religions of the world.

First of all, calling Christian speaking in tongues 'ecstatic utterances' is not accurate because typically it is not ecstatic. Equating a spiritual gift with paganism is a bad thing. I saw that you quoted a source earlier who equates the actual speaking in tongues with the Bible with pagan practice. That is a serious prejudice against gifts of the Spirit, where the gift in I Corinthians 14 is equated with what the pagans were doing.

There are some similarities between Jewish, Christian, and pagan practices. Elijah prophesied. The prophets of Baal prophesied. The difference is the Spirit by which Elijah prophesied was different from the spirits by which the prophets of Baal prophesied.

 

[TMS]

The genuine gift of tongues is a powerful tool for the proclamation of the gospel. But remember, the devil has a counterfeit for every truth of God.

Glossolalia (glô´se-lâ’ lê-a) is the word often used to describe the popular experience found in most charismatic churches. It is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary as: "fabricated and non-meaningful speech, especially such speech associated with a trance state or certain schizophrenic syndromes."

Contrast that with the same dictionary's definition for a language: "The use by human beings of voice sounds, and often written symbols representing these sounds, in organized combinations and patterns in order to express and communicate thoughts and feelings." By any definition, the disjointed sounds of glossolalia are not a language.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

 

[VCO]

I was in the Pentecostal movement for many years and it took me a long time to really look at some of the things they teach and honestly compare those things to the bible. None of the bible teachers of the New Testament Peter,Paul, James, John, Jude, would be considered to be Pentecostals if they were alive today because none of then ever taught Christians that they needed a second baptizing in the Spirit. The NT teaches that a person is baptized in the Spirit at conversion and it does not teach that you receive the Spirit again later at the baptism of the Spirit. Teaching Christians to seek to be baptized in the Spirit after they have already received the Spirit is not really the bible. Also teaching then that after this experience they from that point on are filled with the Spirit, the bible teaches no such thing.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


There is the slight error, that leads to a lot of the Confusion.


1 Corinthians 14:33 (NKJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.


That small error of saying Baptized in the Spirit, instead of by one Spirit into one body, has caused an immense amount of confusion in my option. Once we all can understand that what happens at our spiritual baptism is the HOLY SPIRIT the ONE, who is immersing us into something, and that something is the spiritual body of Jesus Christ; that small reversal of understanding has the potential of leading to a great deal more peace in the body Christ.