What are your questions? I see no questions in your post...just talking about why you think the Holy Spirit gifts are not needed anymore...and about some people you call a heretic group...
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What are your questions? I see no questions in your post...just talking about why you think the Holy Spirit gifts are not needed anymore...and about some people you call a heretic group...
I do believe in the gift of tongues, but in my 30 years in a pentecostal church I never heard anyone speaking a previously unknown foreign language or dialect. It seems to me that most believers just blurt out a sequence of syllables that they hear from others. I don't think we should strain ourselves to speak in tongues because it's a spiritual gift and it comes from God - not from human effort.
I agree....
a lot of people are spiritual babies when it comes to speaking in tongues..I have found the more I do it - the more fluent it comes out..just like as when a babiy is learning to talk. Now I can speak for hours on end if I choose to and have a few times spoke for 3 hours at a time.
The more your mind becomes renewed to the truth of tongues....it just flows out naturally like speaking your own first language.
The devotional tongues is activated by a person's will ( not the tongues and interpretation one as this is as the Spirit wills - this has a different purpose then the devotional tongues ).
The same "will" is activated when praying with the mind as it is with the spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will praywith the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Grace 777*70,above are my questions. And if you had read my last post you must recognize my questions.
What i See is, that you put out of my text what you want. without takeing serious what i wrote.
Of course you can ignore. But so long you could mot answer and explain why suddenly events which are not biblical should be signs of the Holy Spirit, i cant See gods spirit behind.
When you can answer why the church for 1,200 years didn't teach justification by faith until Luther came...then you will have your answer on why some people haven't taught on it in the past.
I answered the question about "being near to God" in post #72
I did answer your question back in post #50..here I will give it to you again below....and if you go to post #57..there is more..I will not re-post that here....and go back and read post #70 for more information and a link to where tongues were talked about in early church life...after the apostles...
I didn't know that you know the person history of everyone prior to 1906 to know whether they prayed in tongues to their Father in their prayer closets.
Of course we could just ignore all the scriptures too that talk about the benefits of praying in tongues to our Father. I know it's foolishness to our natural minds.
Why did the church for 1,300 years have a "different gospel " before Luther came in 1521 and said "The just shall live by faith"?
The Holy Spirit is not going to force you to receive the Lord's gift to you if you don't want it...bless you and have a great day!
C
coby
Guest
Yes you can babble on the automatic pilot and not use it to intercede and ask God to give you more words or tongues and not watch your pronounciation. Someone said: a baby starts with ba ba ba, but if he still speaks like that when he's grown up it's a bit weird. He got one word first and was so proud he said it the whole day.
Yes I can see baby Christians doing that....the more you speak..the more you are freer in your speech and grow in being fluent ( for lack of a better word ) as you speak in faith...it takes faith to pray in the spirit...like Jude says,,building up yourselves on your most holy faith...
Jude 1:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
B
bikerchaz
Guest
Praying in tongues is directed prayer. Some time ago I felt an urgency to pray this way, it filled my whole being I had to stop what I was doing and pray.
At first I hadn't got a clue what for or why but I knew In had to. while praying in my spirit, my minds eye whatever you would like to call it, I saw a wooden box 18" high and 18" wide and about 4 ft long and a girl was in the box and she was so frightened, she could not keep quiet for the fear that was overwhelming her. I prayed with a vigour I has not had until that moment. Eventually the need for praying stopped and calm retuned, and I forgot about it.
About 3 or 4 weeks later when the notices were given at church before the word, it was mentioned that we should pray for the safe keeping of the church in China, that there had been a purge of Christians in some province or other, and hundreds had been killed.
Again I felt the urge to pray as I had done, so I started to pray in the Spirit, and the Spirit showed me that my prayer before was connected with this.
There have been many instances over the years where praying this way either directly or indirectly has changed things within the natural world.
Praying this way while prayer walking streets where dealers lived has proved to be fruitful in removing them from the area, and for a few years now, churches in the north of England have been prayer walking the old drover routes and the main roads, in faith, to allow the Holy Spirit to reclaim the ground for Jesus, and praying in the Spirit has bought some interesting results within this natural realm.
As has been said, the Spirit of God will not force His way into anyone's heart or being, there has to be a willingness to 'let God be' and the responsibility is huge. I did not speak out in church a few times and afterwards I could not for a while, I did not interpret for a while and found I could not, while all the time still having a tongue for prayer.
Hope this helps,
God bless.
J
jaybird88
Guest
when Jesus teaches on praying and moving mountains, He does not say it needs to be done in this tongue language. so again i dont see how it is any different.
Jesus told the disciples 17 times He was going to die and they still didn't get it...imagine if He started to tell them about speaking in the different languages of angels and men??
He also said - if I tell you of earthy things and you don't understand - how will you understand if I tell you of heavenly things?
Tongues is foolishness to the natural mind.
John 16:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come
He also said - if I tell you of earthy things and you don't understand - how will you understand if I tell you of heavenly things?
Tongues is foolishness to the natural mind.
John 16:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come
J
jaybird88
Guest
Yep!...........it's the receiving of the understanding of spiritual things from God is what is foolishness to the natural mind of man.
This process below is not just for tongues but for all spiritual truth. Altho tongues is a great blessing from the Lord - there is a greater revelation in knowing Jesus and all that He has done for us in His finished work......it takes spiritual understanding to grow in the grace and knowledge that is in Christ our Lord.
We just need to be "willing " to receive all that the Lord has for us and knowing Him and our good, loving Father for who He really is - this is the greatest blessing. The Holy Spirit will reveal the things of Jesus and show them to us. We trust Him for all things.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
J
jaybird88
Guest
[FONT=verdana, sans-serif]you would think natural sounds of this world would not be needed in a spiritual realm. our spirit connect us to the Lord, not the sounds we make. Jesus taught the importance of silence in prayer, you wouldnt think sounds from this would would be needed for prayer.
[/FONT]tongues was ment to be a tool they could use to spread the gospel, as a language you didnt speak before makes sense, that would be a sign just like the bible teaches[FONT=verdana, sans-serif]. a heavenly language would make no sense to a non believer and would serve no purpose.[/FONT][FONT=verdana, sans-serif]as a heavenly language when heard, most dont believe (opposite of what bible teaches), many feel an urge to run the other way, that doesnt sound like "seek and you will find" [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, sans-serif]when heard it sounds like babbling, Jesus taught specifically on this:[/FONT]
Mat 6 7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Strong's Concordance battalogeó: to stammer[/FONT]
Short Definition: I chatter, utter empty words. Definition: I chatter, am long-winded, utter empty words, stammer, repeat.
Yes...the natural mind would think that no sounds are needed when we speak in the spirit however Jesus did use "sounds" when He prayed to His Father. So, you maintain that when Jesus prayed - He didn't use sounds?..I think you are way off with that theory as can be seen by many scriptures of Jesus "actually speaking" in words that can be heard when praying.
I can see that this is not going to be a very productive discussion...so I'll leave it where it is. God bless you and I encourage you to be open to receive from the Lord and to seek all that your loving Lord has for you...Have a great day!....
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Brother, i suppose you cant compare an on man will and non biblical doctrines based system as the RCC showes in churchhistorie till today with the reformators which goal it was to go back to the scripture. Even when they all are alos not beeing perfect and had /have difference in their doctrines.
You wrote:" some people haen´t taught it in the past". Non of them taugth it in the past! (otherwise let me please know).
To the questions: Thank you for clarify in post 72.
No answer you gave me:, why then the reformators havent taught the signgifts, if they would be so imprtant for the believers and the church. Ore are you thinking that they are falseteachers because of teaching false about the Holy Spirit.
This is the conclusion which I finally must make (maby i am wrong)
The event in 1906 in Azusa Street splittet the christianity. And this with signs, which are clear not biblical.
When you are right with your meaning about speaking in tongues, then all who teaches this not, are wrong! Because the Holy spirit is not given denominations wise, he is given to all believers undepent which denomination they belong. And the Holy Spirit acts as He will and gives the gift as He will.
I cant see that behind the pentecostal/charismatic teachings is gods spirit. It seems so, but it is not.
If you pray in tongues without understanding, do you know to whom you pray?
You must not answer to my text openly. And i suppose you are fully not agree with me. But please think about.
be blessed with his truth and love
As the scriptures say...spiritual understanding does not come to the natural mind.
You telling me that speaking in tongues is not for today is like an atheist telling a Christian - there is no God. The atheist has already deduced with his mind that there is no God because of his understanding of things.
There are 100's of millions of God-fearing/loving Christians that pray to their Father every day in tongues and it is increasing daily and will continue to do so.
A man with an experience with our Lord is never at the mercy of a man with an argument trying to understand spiritual things with the natural mind.
We will just have to agree to disagree....Have a great day!..Be blessed and be open to receive the good things the Lord has for you....
As the scriptures say...spiritual understanding does not come to the natural mind.
You telling me that speaking in tongues is not for today is like an atheist telling a Christian - there is no God. The atheist has already deduced with his mind that there is no God because of his understanding of things.
There are 100's of millions of God-fearing/loving Christians that pray to their Father every day in tongues and it is increasing daily and will continue to do so.
A man with an experience with our Lord is never at the mercy of a man with an argument trying to understand spiritual things with the natural mind.
We will just have to agree to disagree....Have a great day!..Be blessed and be open to receive the good things the Lord has for you....
Well, it has nothing to do with natural mind. So long you cant explain me how it comes that the signs of the Holy Spirit are non biblical things like noising and acting like animals, or laughing without of controll ,i relly cant see gods spirit behind.
Your reaction is not New for me.
Till now nobody could it explain to me.
Thats a pitty, if god would behind it, i think it would be easy to explain.If you go to the bible you will find, that it is not very wise to follow the mass. So far i know around 800 millions following the pentecostal and charismatic movements.
BE blessed
Now here you go again getting all blustery about tongues. We have had this discussion many times and still you cannot or will describe tongues as the apostles demonstrated them and show that the same tongues are demonstrated in the Pentecostal or Charismatic churches. It is never for a witness to Jews because there are none in attendance. Tongues in modern church are not what we see in the bible.
You can misappropriate scripture all day long but you cannot show what you do or what you are supporting to be biblically based.
Tongues are a sign and a sing to unsaved Jews. Tongues to Jews are a warning of judgment from God.
Simply every aspect of modern tongues as practiced in the Pentecostal or Charismatic church is not biblical. Historical and biblical context demonstrates modern tongues as a mechanism of man and not of God.
Those who practice these tongues are fragmented and cannot agree on a common definition of tongues. Are they languages or are they ecstatic utterances? What did they actually speak at Pentecost? Was the miracle in the tongue of the speaker or in the ears of the hearers?
Rather than accusing me of being something I'm not why not tell us what you really are. The posts in this thread like the many that have come before it clearly show that there is no agreement on what tongues are. Tongues are deemed to be whatever the "speaker" wants them to be and the bible has no influence on the cause or effect. Going outside of the bible is always an endeavor or great risk.
I think it to be very unwise to pray in a tongue where you do not comprehend what you are praying. You assume you are praying to God but that is far from certain if you cannot ascertain the veracity of what you are saying.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Scripture also says that the Holy Spirit does not operate outside of Gods word. Unless you can demonstrate that what you are doing is consistent with Gods word you are in dangerous territory.As the scriptures say...spiritual understanding does not come to the natural mind.
You telling me that speaking in tongues is not for today is like an atheist telling a Christian - there is no God. The atheist has already deduced with his mind that there is no God because of his understanding of things.
There are 100's of millions of God-fearing/loving Christians that pray to their Father every day in tongues and it is increasing daily and will continue to do so.
A man with an experience with our Lord is never at the mercy of a man with an argument trying to understand spiritual things with the natural mind.
We will just have to agree to disagree....Have a great day!..Be blessed and be open to receive the good things the Lord has for you....
For the cause of Christ
Roger
One only needs to read the posts to see that ample scripture has been given. Yet you seem to be locked up in that doctrinal plastic bubble where you can't get out & find truth.
Let the Lord judge between me & you. I trust Him with my life.
As for the readers, I invite you to check the majority of websites for & against tongues. Here's what you'll find:
1. Some Pentecostal/charismatic fanatics trying to stretch the truth of scripture to include that they can take authority over any spiritual circumstance at any time at will. This is heresy, for a true believer follows the leading of the Spirit, while these try to invoke God's power as it the Spirit obeys them.
2. Good sites where scripture abounds to prove the existence of the Gifts of the Spirit including tongues.
3. Sites against all Gifts of the Spirit with the exception of discernment, of which most of them will claim to have. Notice when they use scripture in their explanations, it seems quite confusing, as the plain reading of them doesn't match their doctrine rarely at all.
Lastly, they declare that the gifts ended with the Apostles by using religious history as their defense. But note that the majority of that history resides during the dark ages of the RCC. Do you want to believe Catholic history on ANY subject?
My single defense is this..... Outta all the scriptures that name & teach these gifts, there's NO SCRIPTURE to indicate the gifts ever ceased. 1Cor 13:10 is totally taken out of context to teach the 'completion of canon' doctrine, which is easily proven with a commentary to be heresy.
But don't believe me..... check it out for yourself. You need to discover the truth for yourselves. Seek, and ye shall find.
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