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Here it is again, this confusion in my mind. Maybe I haven't heard something clear enough because this confusion has hit me many times in this thread. I think I asked this question but I'm posting as I go because this topic is very hard for me.
If speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers, why do they use it to edify the church? It's not to edify the church but to convince unbelievers. I think I am missing something that should be simple here...but it's giving me a kinked neck...
But I understand you're saying there are TWO kinds of tongues. One for unbelievers and one for privately between you and God.
Why bring the one for private out of the prayer closet? I'm pretty confused. Going to look up the verses now and ask God to reveal this to me if He wishes for me to understand.
It's been a challenging thread. Thank you all for your efforts here!
Why bring the one for private out of the prayer closet? I'm pretty confused. Going to look up the verses now and ask God to reveal this to me if He wishes for me to understand.
It's been a challenging thread. Thank you all for your efforts here!
This is a confusing topic. Check out this site. Maybe it will answer your question. This site is from a
cessationisr point of
view though
Tongues Have Ceased
Thanks. I really do appreciate it. But I'd rather wait for one of my brothers or sisters who I know hears from the Spirit. I think I'm safer asking them.
Not that it's impossible for them to be sincerely wrong on some things, but the Holy Spirit will usually confirm a things truth to me. Or not.
Thanks. I really do appreciate it. But I'd rather wait for one of my brothers or sisters who I know hears from the Spirit. I think I'm safer asking them.
Did you ever stop to think that just PERHAPS Elizabeth619 was led by the Spirit to give you that link?
J
jaybird88
Guest
Thanks. I really do appreciate it. But I'd rather wait for one of my brothers or sisters who I know hears from the Spirit. I think I'm safer asking them.
or better yet put your faith in the Holy Father that he will lead you to the truth. this is what Jesus taught.
i would not put my faith in a person because i think they have the Spirit because in the end i am putting my trust in a person and not our Lord.
just a thought
Tach Kohelet, nice car! I had long time ago.
Well, i belive that the Lord is working today, no doubting. And he is useing healing, and also special ways , special in missionfield to bring people into his family. What I cant see is that we can use the scripture as we would live in 80 years past christ.
And as explanation for having the sign gifts for the church today, because of the events in 1906 Azusa-street which was also acompanied with strange signs which we dont find in the bible as a manifestation of the Holy spirit. It is not enough evident for me.
With having the word of god in our hands, we dont need to have prophecie, with having eldest in our churches we dont need the gift of healing. Every believer can pray for another, without having thegift of healing. And for a deep relationship with our father we also dont need the prayer in tongues.
Much more important in our world is to preach the word, so long we have time to do it.
Hi Wolf!
I had a "duck" too - not the one in the picture though. Saw that one in Helsinki a few years ago. I'd buy another one if I could.
On the matter of having God's word in our hands and therefore not needing prophecy, we need to remember that New Testament prophecy is not the same as the OT kind. Agabus prophesied to Paul - and Paul didn't always follow the advice contained in the prophecies. But perhaps we're getting away from the topic of tongues.
We can edify ourselves in different ways. Spending time with the Lord in prayer is one, and Paul used tongues and his own language to do so. Who am I to object?
Preaching the word of God is of course what we should be doing. The thing is, it contains instruction on things like the use of the gift of tongues!
Our views can differ on these things and we can still get along. Ein jeglicher sei in seiner Meinung gewiß!
B
bikerchaz
Guest
I am sorry for causing so much irritation between my brothers and sisters. I have been away from this thread for a day or so, and have just spent ages reading through from where I left off, but this time I haven't ticked the 'like' on purpose.
It is obvious within me that there are those who are led by the Spirit and those who are not, some talk of having 'better' gifts like prophesy and say that is what they search for. Search for? These gifts of the Spirit are a gift!! would you expect the Father to give you a gift and then have to spend your life searching for it? would you do that to your children? Give them a gift for their birthday and expect them not to find it before bed time?
And those who 'seek' these other gifts, if Jesus were watching this thread, and He is! Do you not think He would use prophesy or words of knowledge to interact and bring us to a common meeting point for the Father's and His glory? ? ? ?
I shall tell you I have seen words of knowledge on this thread, I am sure that there have been prophetic utterings on this thread as well. but none for me. . . I can hear the cry already 'what makes him so special that he should receive a prophetic message? Am I not a member of the church of Christ, and part of the body?
I am disappointed that some should think that God would not do things He has every right to do. That they should think that they know God so well that they restrict Him from doing what He could because they do not understand it!
The 'cannon of the bible' the 'written word of God', the 'old' and the 'new' testaments, as we have them now, will prove to be one of the worst things that has happened to the church Of God, the bride of Christ. Some of you only use your mind so I will explain using the 'mind'.
The church of Jesus Christ was set up with the coming of the Holy Spirit, this manifestation of God was used to unlock the secrets that were and still are contained within the Torah. Within the Joy and revelation of those secrets, the apostles worked and built up the Church, they wrote letters to the churches they had established.
They knew that the Holy Spirit could only use vessels that were open to Him and that did not have their own agenda. Paul wrote and taught of maturity within this situation, and tried to explain that gifts of tongues were in themselves nothing compared to the other gifts used for the edification of, and building up of the Church. He went on to try and explain that the church could be equated to a human body with many parts, and how in childish thought these separate parts were not as important as each other, because these childish thoughts were selfish.
We read the 'new' testament in chapter and verse, that was not how it was written. Would anyone read a letter from their mum paragraph by paragraph, and before they had finished it, put it down until tomorrow? Also why should we 'think' that a letter written with the urgency of persecution and death in mind could be equated with those who do not face such persecution now. Yes there are lessons to be learned from it, but the Holy Spirit is the author and He lives in us.
Why should the Spirit of God be quiet because we have a few letters? or that a little time has past? why should Jesus remain in the background because we have a few written words from when He walked among us? HE STILL DOES WALK AMONG US IN THE HOLY SPIRIT!!
I spent the first 23 years of my life embedded and consumed by scripture. It was a dead experience, I was with and part of a 'painted sepulchre, full of dead men's bones'. The church of the word was just that 'words' there was no life, no joy no happiness, no perceiving of salvation within my heart. Yes my mind was active, my mind believed in Jesus, and God's purpose with His earth, but without the direct love of Jesus into my heart I struggled with the creation of mankind, of myself.
So much so I took my hobby and turned to a lifestyle around it because it had more life and love than church, even through the drugs and debauchery. I got my first wife killed because of my selfishness of trying to find more from life than the religious death I had known.
Praise be to God through whom all is revealed when faced with literal death, and an acceptance made that "IF GOD BE A REAL LOVING FATHER, THEN I SHOULD KNOW IT IN REAL TERMS. OR DIE AND FACE OBLIVION IN DARKNESS. That was the choice I made in 1998.
To hear anyone say, "I haven't experienced it", or "I don't know why there should be this tongue stuff, we don't need it", makes me angry, but it also wrecks my heart, it pulls me apart inside when I hear the tares sucking the life out of those who truly seek God, putting the stumbling block of 'mind before Spirit' in front of those seeking the truth.
We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, we will all have to face what we have done and said in His name. And every day I pray.
[SUP]Psalm 69
5 [/SUP]You, God, know my folly;
my guilt is not hidden from you.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Lord, the Lord Almighty,
may those who hope in you
not be disgraced because of me;
God of Israel,
may those who seek you
not be put to shame because of me.
Jesus said in his ministry that we should not offend these little ones, he said about a mill stone around the neck of those who did, He also warned that offences would come. There are little ones within the Church, those who have only just heard, those who are young in Christ, besides age, and to put a stumbling block of mind before Spirit is an offence we will all have to answer for.
It is obvious within me that there are those who are led by the Spirit and those who are not, some talk of having 'better' gifts like prophesy and say that is what they search for. Search for? These gifts of the Spirit are a gift!! would you expect the Father to give you a gift and then have to spend your life searching for it? would you do that to your children? Give them a gift for their birthday and expect them not to find it before bed time?
And those who 'seek' these other gifts, if Jesus were watching this thread, and He is! Do you not think He would use prophesy or words of knowledge to interact and bring us to a common meeting point for the Father's and His glory? ? ? ?
I shall tell you I have seen words of knowledge on this thread, I am sure that there have been prophetic utterings on this thread as well. but none for me. . . I can hear the cry already 'what makes him so special that he should receive a prophetic message? Am I not a member of the church of Christ, and part of the body?
I am disappointed that some should think that God would not do things He has every right to do. That they should think that they know God so well that they restrict Him from doing what He could because they do not understand it!
The 'cannon of the bible' the 'written word of God', the 'old' and the 'new' testaments, as we have them now, will prove to be one of the worst things that has happened to the church Of God, the bride of Christ. Some of you only use your mind so I will explain using the 'mind'.
The church of Jesus Christ was set up with the coming of the Holy Spirit, this manifestation of God was used to unlock the secrets that were and still are contained within the Torah. Within the Joy and revelation of those secrets, the apostles worked and built up the Church, they wrote letters to the churches they had established.
They knew that the Holy Spirit could only use vessels that were open to Him and that did not have their own agenda. Paul wrote and taught of maturity within this situation, and tried to explain that gifts of tongues were in themselves nothing compared to the other gifts used for the edification of, and building up of the Church. He went on to try and explain that the church could be equated to a human body with many parts, and how in childish thought these separate parts were not as important as each other, because these childish thoughts were selfish.
We read the 'new' testament in chapter and verse, that was not how it was written. Would anyone read a letter from their mum paragraph by paragraph, and before they had finished it, put it down until tomorrow? Also why should we 'think' that a letter written with the urgency of persecution and death in mind could be equated with those who do not face such persecution now. Yes there are lessons to be learned from it, but the Holy Spirit is the author and He lives in us.
Why should the Spirit of God be quiet because we have a few letters? or that a little time has past? why should Jesus remain in the background because we have a few written words from when He walked among us? HE STILL DOES WALK AMONG US IN THE HOLY SPIRIT!!
I spent the first 23 years of my life embedded and consumed by scripture. It was a dead experience, I was with and part of a 'painted sepulchre, full of dead men's bones'. The church of the word was just that 'words' there was no life, no joy no happiness, no perceiving of salvation within my heart. Yes my mind was active, my mind believed in Jesus, and God's purpose with His earth, but without the direct love of Jesus into my heart I struggled with the creation of mankind, of myself.
So much so I took my hobby and turned to a lifestyle around it because it had more life and love than church, even through the drugs and debauchery. I got my first wife killed because of my selfishness of trying to find more from life than the religious death I had known.
Praise be to God through whom all is revealed when faced with literal death, and an acceptance made that "IF GOD BE A REAL LOVING FATHER, THEN I SHOULD KNOW IT IN REAL TERMS. OR DIE AND FACE OBLIVION IN DARKNESS. That was the choice I made in 1998.
To hear anyone say, "I haven't experienced it", or "I don't know why there should be this tongue stuff, we don't need it", makes me angry, but it also wrecks my heart, it pulls me apart inside when I hear the tares sucking the life out of those who truly seek God, putting the stumbling block of 'mind before Spirit' in front of those seeking the truth.
We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, we will all have to face what we have done and said in His name. And every day I pray.
[SUP]Psalm 69
5 [/SUP]You, God, know my folly;
my guilt is not hidden from you.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Lord, the Lord Almighty,
may those who hope in you
not be disgraced because of me;
God of Israel,
may those who seek you
not be put to shame because of me.
Jesus said in his ministry that we should not offend these little ones, he said about a mill stone around the neck of those who did, He also warned that offences would come. There are little ones within the Church, those who have only just heard, those who are young in Christ, besides age, and to put a stumbling block of mind before Spirit is an offence we will all have to answer for.
again if you don't that fine but the bible is clear the Holy Spirit empowers and give gifts , and prayer to is a gift just saying answered prayers can also be a gift, Eternal life is a gift
Well brother, maby its only my problem. I would have no problem if we woukld have the gifts still today as you mentioned above.
But during the whole churchhistory anyhow this was not the case. We can find praying in tongues, gift of healings and prophecy in sects like (Montanists 2nd century; while the reformation time in Münster (germany), Irvingians, christian sience,
and in spiritism.
I expect like it was in apostolic time, that if someone has the gift of healings- he heals all who comes to him; I expect that somebody who has the gift of prophecie that it will come true what he prophecys in 100% and not only in 40-60% if even pentecostals leaders saying from themself. (One german pentecostal said that 99% of the baptised with the spirit are not real) According the word of god: if a prophet gives a prohecy and this is not coming true, he show himself as a false prophet and has to be killed.
From the movements in 1906 Azusa Street and around this time the signs of getting the Baptism with the spirit is falling backward, noising and moving like animals and uncontrolable movings and laughing. This you can find in connection with spiritsm too.
This event splittet the christianity till today. I claim, this would not be, if the holy Spirit would be behind this.
Ah, I see some things now...!
I didn't mean to say Elizabeth doesn't have the Spirit. I didn't know if she did or did not.
I meant that instead of going to a link to another website, where I would not be able to know the person writing an article, or if they had the Spirit, that I would rather stick with asking my brothers and sisters in HERE, who I have met and talked with and KNOW by their fruit that they have the Spirit.
I see that this misunderstanding has colored our other conversation. I did not get back to check this thread until just now to set this straight. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
I think I've cleared this up by the post I just did, but just in case, no, I didn't stop to consider it. The Spirit didn't seem to urge me to check the thread out so I just didn't check it out. Sorry for the mix up about what I meant.
Quick summary. Only one kind of tongues. Those described as a witness for unsaved Jews. As a warning to them that Jehovah is bringing them into captivity because they have been unfaithful and not received the Messiah sent to them.
Only three sign gifts ceased per 1 Cor 13:8 not all the gifts. No new prophecy as the canon is complete. No supernatural knowledge where simple fishermen have greater knowledge of the word of God than the religious leaders. Lastly no tongues because the bible is translated into enough languages to witness to the entire world.
Tongues today are the result of the worship of miracles by the Roman Catholic Church. This is rooted in unbelief and the need to see proof rather than receive by faith what is written in Gods word.
Bleeding statues, visions and miracles have long been manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church to solidify their power hold over the laity.
The gift of healing has been perverted in that being healed is the gift as God does not gift men to go about healing. This is the area of con men and rip off artists.
Secret prayer languages and senseless prayer babbling is a mainstay of the pagan religions and not Christianity.
The vale has been rent in twain so we have open access to God. We no longer operate as strangers but as dear children.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Only three sign gifts ceased per 1 Cor 13:8 not all the gifts. No new prophecy as the canon is complete. No supernatural knowledge where simple fishermen have greater knowledge of the word of God than the religious leaders. Lastly no tongues because the bible is translated into enough languages to witness to the entire world.
Tongues today are the result of the worship of miracles by the Roman Catholic Church. This is rooted in unbelief and the need to see proof rather than receive by faith what is written in Gods word.
Bleeding statues, visions and miracles have long been manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church to solidify their power hold over the laity.
The gift of healing has been perverted in that being healed is the gift as God does not gift men to go about healing. This is the area of con men and rip off artists.
Secret prayer languages and senseless prayer babbling is a mainstay of the pagan religions and not Christianity.
The vale has been rent in twain so we have open access to God. We no longer operate as strangers but as dear children.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No problem, sister.... sometimes meanings get lost in the "print" version, as opposed to the vocal version... I probably read too much into your statement... I apologize for presuming..
Well, you certainly have a GIFT of breaking it down in an understandable way!
thank you,m
I hope it has helped and not hurt
I do not know if one syllable discredits what is known as Tongues. But I too speak more than one language and I do know that one word can have more than one meaning. That being said I cannot interject my Human reasoning into the spiritual workings of God. The Tongue without Interpretation the person is told to be silent. What is interpreted has to do three things 1. Comfort, 2. Edify, and 3. Line up with the Word of God. man did write the bible
but God was the Author. you say my argument is a false one but it is true God is the inspiration given to man so he could write down what Gods words are . 2 tim 3:16 "Allscriptureis given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"please tell me what is false about the scripture ?
here another that is false too 2Pet 1:21 " For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holymenof God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
it is not my claim but the Bible tells us that man wrote Gods word as God gave it to them.
The Bible is the word of God and having it without the Holy Spirit teaching what it meaning is for correct application as John chapters 14 and 16 tells us Jesus speaking on the very topic. The Gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift from the Holy Spirit are scriptural which we find in John 14, 16 and 1 cor 12, 13, 14.
I understand the issue with abuse but that is something that has been happening from the standing up of the church in the writing of the Epistles today. Also I respect your opinion but this too is not biblical your point here:
" Besides, even if no one anywhere ever spoke in tongues again, would it really be a loss to the church? I don't think so, because as long as we have the Bible, we have all we need to really learn about not only who God is, but his expectations for us, and all the theology we will ever need.
If the church never spoke in tongues again would it be a loss to the church ? All Gift given by the Holy Spirit are given for a reason even if men do not think so. Yes it would be a loss of any gift God has given us.
Last edited:
E
ember
Guest
I quite understand his response
I've stayed out of this thread mainly because of the camp that states tongues have ceased
its a hurtful argument and no one one wins
I'm neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic
Tongues have not ceased in spite of the abuse of the gifts...not just tongues, but probably all of them
Take teaching for example...this is a terribly abused gift with so many believing they are teachers much to the detriment of those who find themselves pupils under them