TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING.

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Re: TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING

shrimp said:
​Here's an interesting fact when looking up Unitarian this is what I got:
Unitarians maintain that Jesus is solely the "son" of God, but not God himself
Unitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that statement goes against what I believe therefor: I am not Unitarian.
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Most forms of Unitarianism do adhere to that (Socinianism being a prime example), but by definition, Unitarianism is the belief that God is one sole individual. For example, you believe God is one person who can take on the roles of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, but none the less, you believe that God is only one sole individual (hence, Uni-tarian).

Socinians believe that Jesus is not divine in any form, but merely a man, and thus, assume that God is one sole individual, namely, the Father.
 
perhaps it is I, not you, that has not expressed myself clearly.
I am Pentecostal.
gasp! i know! right! it's awful! (intense amount of sarcasm)
 
shrimp said:
perhaps it is I, not you, that has not expressed myself clearly.
I am Pentecostal.
gasp! i know! right! it's awful! (intense amount of sarcasm)
Click to expand...

Yes, this is precisely what I was hinting at when I identified you as being modalistic.
 
Elin said:
It's been in the NT Scrpitures since their beginning.
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Do you learn the word trinity and it's implications by reading the Bible yourself or do you read the trinity doctrine and agree with it?
 
chubbena said:
Do you learn the word trinity and it's implications by reading the Bible yourself or do you read the trinity doctrine and agree with it?
Click to expand...
I have no basis for agreeing or disagreeing with the "Trinity doctrine" apart from my study of the Scriptures.

In my lifetime, I have read more than just the Scriptures for my knowledge and understanding of God and his truth.

And I accepted nothing, including three divine persons, which did not correspond to the Scriptures 100%.

The following are the three groups of Scriptures to which it corresponds.

The NT states that Jesus is God:

1) In Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34, Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) In Ro 10:9, 13-16, Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) In Heb 1:6, Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) In Lk 1:67-68, 76, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah.

5) In Lk 1:41-43, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth.

6) In Eph 4:8-9, Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18.

7) In Jn 19:37, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10.

8) In Lk 4:18-21.,. Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8

9) In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

10) In Rev 22:13-16, Jesus is the LORD GOD, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7.

11) In Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13, Jesus is God on the Throne of Rev 21:5, 7.

12) In Jn 1:3, 10; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge 1:1; Isa 44:24; Jer 10:16.


The NT states that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God:

1) Jesus, whom the NT shows to be God (above), said the Holy Spirit proceeded from
(came forth from, out of) God just as he did per Jn 15:26.

2) Jesus, who is God, said the Holy Spirit was another Comforter like himself (God) per Jn 14:16-17,
25-26, 15:26, 16:7.

3) The NT refers to the Holy Spirit with
personal pronouns (he),
personal titles (Comforter) and
personal functions (intelligence, will, speaking, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets,
showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding),
because he is a person.

Jesus presents the Triune God:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Mt 28:19)

The NT presents Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.

"At that moment heaven was opened, and Jesus saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Father speaking.)

Scripture presents three separate persons in the one being of God.

Examine them for yourself.

 
Elin said:

I have no basis for agreeing or disagreeing with the "Trinity doctrine" apart from my study of the Scriptures.

In my lifetime, I have read more than just the Scriptures for my knowledge and understanding of God and his truth.

And I accepted nothing, including three divine persons, which did not correspond to the Scriptures 100%.

The following are the three groups of Scriptures to which it corresponds.

The NT states that Jesus is God:

1) In Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34, Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) In Ro 10:9, 13-16, Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) In Heb 1:6, Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) In Lk 1:67-68, 76, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah.

5) In Lk 1:41-43, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth.

6) In Eph 4:8-9, Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18.

7) In Jn 19:37, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10.

8) In Lk 4:18-21.,. Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8

9) In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

10) In Rev 22:13-16, Jesus is the LORD GOD, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7.

11) In Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13, Jesus is God on the Throne of Rev 21:5, 7.

12) In Jn 1:3, 10; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge 1:1; Isa 44:24; Jer 10:16.


The NT states that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God:

1) Jesus, whom the NT shows to be God (above), said the Holy Spirit proceeded from
(came forth from, out of) God just as he did per Jn 15:26.

2) Jesus, who is God, said the Holy Spirit was another Comforter like himself (God) per Jn 14:16-17,
25-26, 15:26, 16:7.

3) The NT refers to the Holy Spirit with
personal pronouns (he),
personal titles (Comforter) and
personal functions (intelligence, will, speaking, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets,
showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding),
because he is a person.

Jesus presents the Triune God:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Mt 28:19)

The NT presents Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.

"At that moment heaven was opened, and Jesus saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Father speaking.)

Scripture presents three separate persons in the one being of God.

Examine them for yourself.
Click to expand...
Very well. Now if you will, read the verses quoted by the opposite side and explain to them verse by verse with patience.
 
shrimp said:
I lean more toward Oneness.
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shrimp,
How do you reconcile oneness with the satanic trinity showed to us in the Book of Revelation. TO be clear it is not called the trinity in revelation, but there is a Satanic trinity in revelation. SInce this is true and we know that Satan will imitate and counterfiet everything of God, then like I said, how can you reconcile oneness?

Satan, The Beast, The False Prophet which seek to counterfeit God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Not at all knocking you, just asking.
 
chubbena said:
Very well. Now if you will, read the verses quoted by the opposite side and explain to them verse by verse with patience.
Click to expand...

I've said this before, but by presenting a lists of passages does nothing but help send the conversation in a million directions. The better thing to do would be to decide on a thesis and then spring from there.
 
chubbena said:
Do you learn the word trinity and it's implications by reading the Bible yourself or do you read the trinity doctrine and agree with it?
Click to expand...
No, you learn scripture and find that "Trinity" is a helpful word for expression and communicating a set of doctrines to a person. Just as when I say "Republican" you understand that I am speaking of a set of political beliefs and a party along with it.
 
The_highwayman said:
shrimp,
How do you reconcile oneness with the satanic trinity showed to us in the Book of Revelation. TO be clear it is not called the trinity in revelation, but there is a Satanic trinity in revelation. SInce this is true and we know that Satan will imitate and counterfiet everything of God, then like I said, how can you reconcile oneness?

Satan, The Beast, The False Prophet which seek to counterfeit God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Not at all knocking you, just asking.
Click to expand...
Can I get back to you in a few days? I have not read revelation since receiving the Holy Ghost. I would very much like to before answering.
Much appreciated.
 
shrimp said:
Can I get back to you in a few days? I have not read revelation since receiving the Holy Ghost. I would very much like to before answering.
Much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Absolutely and take your time.
 
chubbena said:
clear.gif

Elin said:
I have no basis for agreeing or disagreeing with the "Trinity doctrine" apart from my study of the Scriptures.

In my lifetime, I have read more than just the Scriptures for my knowledge and understanding of God and his truth.

And I accepted nothing, including three divine persons, which did not correspond to the Scriptures 100%.

The following are the three groups of Scriptures to which it corresponds.

The NT states that Jesus is God:

1) In Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34, Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) In Ro 10:9, 13-16, Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) In Heb 1:6, Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) In Lk 1:67-68, 76, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah.

5) In Lk 1:41-43, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth.

6) In Eph 4:8-9, Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18.

7) In Jn 19:37, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10.

8) In Lk 4:18-21.,. Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8

9) In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

10) In Rev 22:13-16, Jesus is the LORD GOD, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7.

11) In Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13, Jesus is God on the Throne of Rev 21:5, 7.

12) In Jn 1:3, 10; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge 1:1; Isa 44:24; Jer 10:16.


The NT states that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God:

1) Jesus, whom the NT shows to be God (above), said the Holy Spirit proceeded from
(came forth from, out of) God just as he did per Jn 15:26.

2) Jesus, who is God, said the Holy Spirit was another Comforter like himself (God) per Jn 14:16-17,
25-26, 15:26, 16:7.

3) The NT refers to the Holy Spirit with
personal pronouns (he),
personal titles (Comforter) and
personal functions (intelligence, will, speaking, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets,
showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding),
because he is a person.

Jesus presents the Triune God:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Mt 28:19)

The NT presents Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.

"At that moment heaven was opened, and Jesus saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Father speaking.)

Scripture presents three separate persons in the one being of God.

Examine them for yourself.
Click to expand...

Very well. Now if you will, read the verses quoted by the opposite side and explain to them verse by verse with patience.
Click to expand...
One thing at a time.

Not until the table has been cleared of the above by your addressing them adequately.






​
 
GraceBeUntoYou said:
I've said this before, but by presenting a lists of passages does nothing but help send the conversation in a million directions. The better thing to do would be to decide on a thesis and then spring from there.
Click to expand...
How would the thesis be stated in his case?
 
I'm not sure the Satanic trinity in the Revelation presents difficulties for the non-Trinitarian. The parody of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is still insulting, even if they're not three persons sharing the same essence. It's like walking up to a single person and saying: "you're a bad father, son, and brother." It doesn't mean he's a trinity, but you've used his three most common, cherished titles to insult him.

In fact, the Satanic trinity in the Revelation is three separate persons.
 
Elin said:
How would the thesis be stated in his case?
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I think, "Is the Trinity true?" is too broad of a question. There are a number of other questions we could draw from; however, the nature of those questions would depend upon the Unitarian you intend to dialogue with. It would do you no good to discuss early Christian devotion to Jesus with a Modalist. It would do you no good to discuss the pre-existence of Christ with Arians. So depending upon which form of Unitarianism chubbena adheres to would be the determining factor for your thesis. There are a number of different routes one can go.

 
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GraceBeUntoYou said:
I think, "Is the Trinity true?" is too broad of a question. There are a number of other questions we could draw from; however, the nature of those questions would depend upon the Unitarian you intend to dialogue with. It would do you no good to discuss early Christian devotion to Jesus with a Modalist. It would do you no good to discuss the pre-existence of Christ with Arians. So depending upon which form of Unitarianism chubbena adheres to would be the determining factor for your thesis. There are a number of different routes one can go.
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Thanks, but not my thesis. . .what would be the thesis of chubbena?
 
Elin said:
Thanks, but not my thesis. . .what would be the thesis of chubbena?
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It's hard to tell, he really hasn't given a lot of information to work with. But assuming that his theology corresponds with that of jackmoore or texascowgirl (Socinianism), then a couple come to mind:


  • Did Jesus preexist the virgin birth?
  • Did the early Christians worship Jesus?

Drive one nail at a time.
 
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I adhere to the teachings of the bible. I don't think I can labeled except maybe holy roller as we were called back in the day. The bible is clear of the preincarnate Christ. The bible is clear that He was born of a virgin and the bible is clear, that word was with God and the was God and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. The trinity is a clear picture in the temple. It is a clear picture in us. It is a clear picture in the accomplishments of man. All were done by three things wisdom (Father), knowledge (the Son), and prudence (the Holy Spirit). When American government was established it was by three ruling entities. The trinity is true teaching of the word of God.
 
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