TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING.

[Cycel]

Well, if you consider the early Christians to be the apostles, the answer is yes,
as seen in the three separate divine persons they present in the one God.

Did they use the word "Trinity," the answer is no.

I suspect CRC may be meaning the Judeo-Christians, the original Jewish followers of Jesus for whom following the Law was still all-important (recall Jesus' words: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Matt 5:18). The more proper term for them may be Ebionites (the Poor – which I think they called themselves) and, or Nazarenes (members took an Nazarene oath, which, I believe, Paul himself was required to take at the behest of James). Some New Testament translations of "Jesus of Nazareth" might more properly be rendered "Jesus the Zazarene" (which is not a reference to the town). They existed as a group well into the 4th century when the Church passed a law forbidding the attending of synagogue. They had their own Gospel as well, which has not survived. It’s a hugely interesting topic.

 

[Cycel]

Here's the thing.

Apart from illumination by the Holy Spirit, the Bible is a closed book.

The unaided human mind can neither understand nor accept the Bible.

Being of a secular mind I view the Bible as I would any other group of documents. Modern biblical scholarship has made huge inroads into understanding scripture with a fresh perspective. I take my lead from them and find the study immensely rewarding.

 

[Bowman]

Well, for one thing, John reported also that Jesus said the following: "for the Father is greater than I.... I love the Father, and do exactly as he commands..." (John 14:28-31).

Jesus (if these are his words) at least at this time, appears not to see himself as God.

I think it is important that the Trinity is not mentioned in scripture. You would think this all important doctrine would be mentioned somewhere in the New Testament. It, after all, is so central today. I think the fact it was not mentioned may mean it was not always central to Christian understanding. Historically, the first mention of the Trinity is in the 2nd century. There was considerable controversy with not all Christians accepting the (new?) doctrine. It has a complex history with its final formalization in the 4th century. Someone like myself has to wonder why, if the doctrine was central to the understanding of Jesus' original followers, it was not more clearly stated.

I have a question. Does the idea of the Trinity arise primarily, or exclusively, with John, or are there important references to it in the Synoptics as well?

The concept of the Trinity is as old as the OT.

Here is a small sampling so that you can see for yourself the depth to which the scriptures go just within one book of the Holy Bible...


We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)

We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)

We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father

 

[chubbena]

For some people, the more they learn about the Bible the more doubt grows within them.

The doubt might be a result of hearing too many different interpretations the bible from teachers including many false ones, not personally reading it.
The doubt might also be from the actions of Christians - some are good at bringing the worst in the best of man.

 

[Kerry]

So chuberdubs whats the problem?

 

[Cycel]

The doubt might be a result of hearing too many different interpretations the bible...

I think you are on to something with this line of thought. Many Christian countries in past centuries (before the Reformation) banned publishing the Bible in the vernacular. The Catholic Church was concerned that free access to scripture at the public level would lead to a plethora of new heresies. They were right. According to the Oxford World Christian Encyclpedia (1982) there were at that time an estimated 22,190 distinct Protestant denominations, and the number was still growing.

Dan Barker, former evangelical preacher turned atheist, noted that his decline in faith began with his encountering numerous congregations with contradictory views.

... from teachers including many false ones, not personally reading it.

It's a false impression that non-believers are unfamiliar with scripture. Some are very knowledgeable.

The doubt might also be from the actions of Christians - some are good at bringing the worst in the best of man.

I don't recall any instance of someone becoming an atheist because they were disappointed in Christian behaviour. Christian behaviour, whether good or bad, has no bearing on the accuracy of scripture.

 

[Cycel]

The concept of the Trinity is as old as the OT.

Here is a small sampling so that you can see for yourself the depth to which the scriptures go just within one book of the Holy Bible...


We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)

We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)

We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father

I don't see any of these as indicating belief in the Trinity. Before the birth of the Son you can only have a Duo.

 

[Bowman]

I don't see any of these as indicating belief in the Trinity.

That's because you are wearing rose-colored glasses according to your avatar....

Ezekiel awaits your refutation of it....

Before the birth of the Son you can only have a Duo.

The Son was known as Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc, etc, etc,...in the OT....study up!

 

[Apostol2013]

the Father was tempted Exo 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not? Num 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Psa 78:18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
Psa 78:40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
Psa 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psa 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 106:13 They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel:
Psa 106:14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
but look what paul has said concerning christ
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
look at what the Holy ghost said
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
it is one God manifested in the father son and the holy spirit the three witneses in Heaven and is the One true GOD

 

[Elin]

Well, for one thing, John reported also that Jesus said the following: "for the Father is greater than I.... I love the Father, and do exactly as he commands..." (John 14:28-31).

Jesus (if these are his words) at least at this time, appears not to see himself as God.

The human nature of Jesus was not God.
His divine nature was God.
Christ Jesus was both God and man, with a human nature and a divine nature.

And God the Father is the one from within whom God the Son and God the Holy Spirit proceed.
(Jn 8:42; 15:26).

That we don't understand it or cannot explain it has nothing to do with its truth.

I think it is important that the Trinity is not mentioned in scripture.

The word "trinity" is not in Scripture, just as the word "sovereign" or the word "relationship" is not in Scripture, but all are presented there nonetheless.

You would think this all important doctrine would be mentioned somewhere in the New Testament.

I have a question. Does the idea of the Trinity arise primarily, or exclusively, with John, or
are there important references to it in the Synoptics as well?

"Important" references?
No one word of God is more important than another.

And yes, Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit are presented as deity throughout the NT, as shown here, for all those who have eyes that can see (Lk 24:31; Eph 1:18; 1Co 2:14; 1:18).






​

 

[Elin]

I suspect CRC may be meaning the Judeo-Christians, the original Jewish followers of Jesus

However, I am referring to the original Jewish followers who preceded them, and who penned the NT.

 

[Elin]

Being of a secular mind I view the Bible as I would any other group of documents. Modern biblical scholarship has made huge inroads into understanding scripture with a fresh perspective. I take my lead from them and find the study immensely rewarding.

What do you find rewarding, if you do not believe in God?

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, as it is written that when "GOD breath into the nostril of Adam and he became a living soul." Never written Adam became a 'living spirit'.
In my understanding as i received the revelation and not to force feed others on this, i confess that Adam received a spirit either when GOD had conversations with him or when he ate the fruit and received the knowledge of good and evil.

When a conformed spirit to GOD's word is neglected and ignored, the spirit may then die but the body and soul lives on in emptiness, conducting simple and natural things without direction. May be in time it can be housed by other evil spirits because knowledges are plenty in this world which can be of the deceit device of satan in order to trick the young and innocent.

Beware of what you hear and pick up and practice in this world for that determines one's destination. That is why in every believers as according to the Holy Bible's New Covenant procedures, in order for one to be saved, further CHRIST through HIS witnessing servants who place their hands, places the anointing in them the HOLY SPIRIT to be their Helper and Teacher.

During the time of the Apostles, as according to their letters, the church were welcoming all kinds of speakers to preach the message of GOD in their congregations. The Apostles immediately acted upon this matter in saying, especially Apostle Paul to church of the Gentiles, that the churches were receiving another 'Jesus' and another 'spirit'.

In wisdom to the sound doctrine of the Living Truth and in reference to the Holy Bible concordance and also by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT our Helper and Teacher, i confess that 'every knowledge is a spirit'.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you and help you in spirit and truth. Forever and ever HE is our LORD our GOD of Israel, Living in CHRIST JESUS, through HIS HOLY SPIRIT as One, reigning in Full-Power, Full-Control and Full-Manifestation, Amen.

 

[Elin]

Peace be with you, as it is written that when "GOD breath into the nostril of Adam and he became a living soul." Never written Adam became a 'living spirit'.

In the Hebrew, "soul" is nephesh, which is simply the animating principle of life,
that which inanimate objects (rocks) do not have.

Physical matter united with a soul (animation) is a living being.

This living being was made in the image of God.
God is spirit.
This living being likewise was created with a spirit which possessed eternal life, as did God's Spirit,
which gave the being immortality.
When Adam rebelled, he lost both eternal life in his spirit, and immortality in his being.

So that now all those descended from Adam are born without eternal life in their spirits (spiritual death)
and without immortality in their being (subject to physical death).

 

[chubbena]

I think you are on to something with this line of thought. Many Christian countries in past centuries (before the Reformation) banned publishing the Bible in the vernacular. The Catholic Church was concerned that free access to scripture at the public level would lead to a plethora of new heresies. They were right. According to the Oxford World Christian Encyclpedia (1982) there were at that time an estimated 22,190 distinct Protestant denominations, and the number was still growing.

Dan Barker, former evangelical preacher turned atheist, noted that his decline in faith began with his encountering numerous congregations with contradictory views.


It's a false impression that non-believers are unfamiliar with scripture. Some are very knowledgeable.


I don't recall any instance of someone becoming an atheist because they were disappointed in Christian behaviour. Christian behaviour, whether good or bad, has no bearing on the accuracy of scripture.

The Catholic Church was concerned that free access to scripture at the public level would lead to exposure of their heresy. The protestant denominations are her offspring. I'm not a bit surprised that they multiply the way they are.
Some non-believers think they are very knowledgeable of the scripture doesn't mean they actually are. If they actually are, they probably are those Paul spoke about in Romans 1.
Can't help on whether you recall but we may talk about it when you meet more atheists on this earth.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Please address this verse directly:
Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Jesus knows exactly what the accusation is - He proclaimed that He is God's Son rather than He proclaimed that He is God.

"Son of God" was what Jesus openly affirmed, and would have been what the Jews suggested by the charge (c.f. John 19.7, Leviticus 24.16); thus, there is no semantic ambiguity. Judging by the audiences’ response (v. 39), after referring to Himself as the “Son of God,” Jesus’ enemies did not challenge the modification as being antithetic from what they were implying (thus, they sought after Him yet again).

Here Christ clarified His relation with the Father ("whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world"), which had to do with His right to the divine title via the divine commission.

The judges were given the title “gods,” because of their special commission (Psalm 82.7-8). These so-called “gods” were to be judged for their wickedness, and their exalted position did not mitigate them from accountability, whereas Jesus is the Judge by way of excellence (c.f. 5.22, 27; 8.16, 26; 9.39).

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

CRC, would you happen to be a Jehovah's Witness by chance? These citations are quite familiar, and if I'm not mistaken, are from the "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" pamphlet put out by the Watchtower (which, as of late last year/early this year, is no longer available from the Watchtower). These citations, however, are selective half-quotes. Anyone who has ever dealt with a JW before knows to check the source material being cited. This is in no way honest, but deliberate deceitfulness on behalf of the Watchtower. If you would be so kind to provide the full citation of each of these, you will find that they actually teach the opposite of what you're attempting to espouse.

The reason I do not post the citations in full for you, is because it would be beneficial for you to see them for yourself.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Jesus is God's Son, that makes him divine. Since we know that there is only one true God, Jesus is either God or a god. If he is God then our salvation is secure, if he is a god then he is a false god and by definition not perfect and we are thus doomed to hell. If you don't believe in a trinitarian God then try asking for the Holy Spirit's help in understanding, read philippians 2 and look back to what was being taught amongst OT Jewish Rabbi's.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, there was also a tree of eternal 'life' in the garden of Eden. GOD would have been glad if Adam had eaten this fruit but since sadly his choice was the forbidden fruit, then GOD chased them out of the garden and placed a cherubim to forbid them the tree of life.

Please carefully read the Scriptures knowing the anointing in us who is our true Teacher from Heaven. The HOLY SPIRIT have made me ponder upon these Scriptures;

1. Before when GOD took a hand full of soil and created Adam and breath into his nostril and Adam became a living soul and then later created Eve from Adam's ribs to be his rightful pleasured companion. Never were told to multiply and they never did and never were told to subdue anything but only to name the animals and take care of the garden while they were in that garden.
a) Also GOD speaks while in the Garden of Eden, about the condition and situation on the earth at that time that 'no plants, no water to water the earth and no one to tilt the ground'.
b) Also everyday GOD did speak to guide Adam, as natural carnal father guides his young, and the young listening, watching, learning and growing under the parent's guidance.

2. Then on the sixth day as mentioned, GOD creates a man and a woman together; "Let us make Man and woman in our own image. They shall multiply and subdue the earth.
Now also carefully note that the plants and vegetation were already created and growing on the third day and there were also already water coming out from the earth to water them.

3. The proclamation of Scriptural Truth what GOD has created in the garden of Eden and that is in the world were two different people and both were not given the same instructions to how they shall represent the Kingdom of GOD in their individual created places, proclamation in the very presence of the Holy Angels and the HOLY SPIRIT.

4.As it is also written, GOD only moved with and only guided Adam in a Heavenly spiritual character, so that he will grow to be that Heavenly spirit man to make the right choices and mature also eating only the fruit of the Tree of Eternal Life.

5.The ones created in HIS image, were given the spirit to multiply and subdue and representing earthly carnal spiritual Kings and Queens

6.And the one created with HIS hands,soil and with HIS breath, became a living soul and was guided by the SPIRIT of GOD in order to grow as the spiritual KING representing Heaven and earth and be called the only begotten.

But sadly in a short time it all failed and Adam and Eve were chased out from the Garden of Eden into this world, punished as the head then onwards, to tilt the ground with sweat and the body then onwards to conceive and endure birth pains.

 

[Elin]

Peace be with you, there was also a tree of eternal 'life' in the garden of Eden. GOD would have been glad if Adam had eaten this fruit but since sadly his choice was the forbidden fruit, then GOD chased them out of the garden and placed a cherubim to forbid them the tree of life.

Please carefully read the Scriptures knowing the anointing in us who is our true Teacher from Heaven. The HOLY SPIRIT have made me ponder upon these Scriptures;

1. Before when GOD took a hand full of soil and created Adam and breath into his nostril and Adam became a living soul and then later created Eve from Adam's ribs to be his rightful pleasured companion. Never were told to multiply and they never did and never were told to subdue anything but only to name the animals and take care of the garden while they were in that garden.

Well. . .

". . .male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them,

"Be fruitful and increase in number. . ." (Gen 1:27-28, precedes Gen 2:7)