Trinity isn't a trinity. It's a duality.

[Delvianna]

This was briefly mentioned on another thread, so I wanted to bring it up here so we didn't detour the other thread.

So, my belief is that there is a duality to the God-head, not a trinity. The Father + Jesus. It's not that I don't believe in the "Holy Spirit", but I specifically link it to the Father and Jesus's spirit combined, not that it by itself is it's own person.

This is going to get complicated... so I'm going to do my best to make 1 point first before we go all over the place. So I'm asking to anyone who replies to my OP, to stick with this 1 point first as the main focus, otherwise trying to have a conversation about this is going to get chaotic.

So let's start with this one verse and build an argument around it. Feel free to build an argument against my conclusion but I want to start by focusing on this 1 verse.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. - John 14:23

Okay, let's break this down:

• Jesus is speaking, so we can take what He says with authority.
• He only mentions the Father making a home with Him. There is no 3rd party mentioned as a person.
• As a person, you yourself have a spirit. This is what continues to live when your body dies. So mention of a spirit, has to mention a person. You cannot have a spirit without a person-hood. Because a person has their own thoughts, emotions, speech, etc. So when there is a mention of person-hoods, the "Holy Spirit" is left out of that mix. (In this verse. If the Holy Spirit is it's own person-hood, why is it left out?)
• So any mention of the "Holy Spirit" in scripture would be in mention of The Father + Christ or any combination of the mix.

 

[CS1]

This was briefly mentioned on another thread, so I wanted to bring it up here so we didn't detour the other thread.

So, my belief is that there is a duality to the God-head, not a trinity. The Father + Jesus. It's not that I don't believe in the "Holy Spirit", but I specifically link it to the Father and Jesus's spirit combined, not that it by itself is it's own person.

This is going to get complicated... so I'm going to do my best to make 1 point first before we go all over the place. So I'm asking to anyone who replies to my OP, to stick with this 1 point first as the main focus, otherwise trying to have a conversation about this is going to get chaotic.

So let's start with this one verse and build an argument around it. Feel free to build an argument against my conclusion but I want to start by focusing on this 1 verse.



Okay, let's break this down:

• Jesus is speaking, so we can take what He says with authority.
• He only mentions the Father making a home with Him. There is no 3rd party mentioned as a person.
• As a person, you yourself have a spirit. This is what continues to live when your body dies. So mention of a spirit, has to mention a person. You cannot have a spirit without a person-hood. Because a person has their own thoughts, emotions, speech, etc. So when there is a mention of person-hoods, the "Holy Spirit" is left out of that mix. (In this verse. If the Holy Spirit is it's own person-hood, why is it left out?)
• So any mention of the "Holy Spirit" in scripture would be in mention of The Father + Christ or any combination of the mix.

There is big holes in your points you are making.

1. The Father and the Holy Spirit are there when Jesus was baptized. Matthew 3:13-17

2. John chapter 14:16, 26, John 15: 26 and 16:7.

It was Jesus who said the paraklétos the Holy Spirit call the Spirit of Truth.
who knows the mind of God. Who can know the mind of God but GOD? 1 Corinthians 2:11

The Holy Spirit is well established as God working in the world through men and women:

3. Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18, 20),
The Gospels record that Jesus was “led by the Spirit” (Matthew 4:1), Jesus was tempted in all points like we are, but “never once… yielded to temptation” — His victory came “in the power of the Holy Spirit” (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:12)

Jesus said Himself He was doing all by the Holy Spirit. How can one who acts, know what God knows, and led Jesus; not be God?

The human intellect cannot fully comprehend all there is to know of the Eternal Godhead, because we are limited where God is not.

We must approach the Spirit of God with reverence and humility.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, quenched, resisted and blasphemed.

Jesus said this sin would not be forgiven But HE said that which was spoken against Him would be forgiven.

TO say the Holy Spirit "is left out of the mix" when if one reads John 14, Jesus clearly says HE must Leave so the Spirit can come. How is that left out?

The Holy Spirit was not left out of the mix. He is here as Jesus said he would be.

Just because Jesus said or mentioned he was Going to the Father, he also said that the Spirit would Come and do what Jesus did another helper. In the Greek means Like the same kind.

The Holy Spirit is God and very much seen doing what only God can do in the word of God.

 

[tablet123]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible says there is one God the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

God would reveal His new name and speak to Israel.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said to Philip if he has seen Him then He has seen the Father.

And the words that He speaks are not His own but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.

So the Father revealed His new name Jesus and spoke to Israel.

Which is why the Son shall be called the everlasting Father for there is one God the Father.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is the Father for He is a Spirit.

Not a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints and Him in visible activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints and Him in spiritual activity which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the saints have the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This does not prove there is a trinity.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Adam was made in the image of God which is the figure of Christ.

The Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and created Adam in that image an innocent nature in flesh.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image not a trinity.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

John 5:43;I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus came in the Father's name.

The Son inherited that name.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles and the name is singular which the name is Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles, were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Everything we do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power be at His right hand until His enemies are conquered.

And when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand is a temporary role and it does not mean He sits on a throne next to the Father.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

There is one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus and if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father.

 

[CS1]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible says there is one God the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

God would reveal His new name and speak to Israel.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said to Philip if he has seen Him then He has seen the Father.

And the words that He speaks are not His own but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.

So the Father revealed His new name Jesus and spoke to Israel.

Which is why the Son shall be called the everlasting Father for there is one God the Father.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is the Father for He is a Spirit.

Not a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints and Him in visible activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints and Him in spiritual activity which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the saints have the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This does not prove there is a trinity.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Adam was made in the image of God which is the figure of Christ.

The Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and created Adam in that image an innocent nature in flesh.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image not a trinity.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

John 5:43;I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus came in the Father's name.

The Son inherited that name.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles and the name is singular which the name is Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles, were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Everything we do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power be at His right hand until His enemies are conquered.

And when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand is a temporary role and it does not mean He sits on a throne next to the Father.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

There is one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus and if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father.

you can cherry pick all you like. Jesus was very clear in John chapter 14 and 15.

If do what you are doing with the word of God to try and establish Dualism of only TWO.

Then Deuteronomy 6:4 means there is only God and not revealed in TWO: " Hear o Israel The Lord God is ONE!"

Of course I would have to rip out all that the Prophet's of God spoke through that was given to them by God from HIS Spirit.
I would also have to take out what Jesus said too. That would be error.

You are doing just that. How can you speak so arrogantly about the Holy Spirit? That is very troubling. WE must take all scriptures and remember we are limited where God is not. the concept of Dualism a and the Trinity are both limited to fully explain all God is. Yet Biblically :

The Father is GOD seen in the Bible
Jesus is God seen in the Bible
The Holy Spirit is God seen in the bible
All doing what only God can do.

 

[CS1]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible says there is one God the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

God would reveal His new name and speak to Israel.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said to Philip if he has seen Him then He has seen the Father.

And the words that He speaks are not His own but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.

So the Father revealed His new name Jesus and spoke to Israel.

Which is why the Son shall be called the everlasting Father for there is one God the Father.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is the Father for He is a Spirit.

Not a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints and Him in visible activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints and Him in spiritual activity which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the saints have the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This does not prove there is a trinity.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Adam was made in the image of God which is the figure of Christ.

The Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and created Adam in that image an innocent nature in flesh.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image not a trinity.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

John 5:43;I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus came in the Father's name.

The Son inherited that name.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles and the name is singular which the name is Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles, were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Everything we do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power be at His right hand until His enemies are conquered.

And when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand is a temporary role and it does not mean He sits on a throne next to the Father.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

There is one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus and if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father.

NOT seeing doesn't mean non-existent. When Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father was speaking to those on Earth NOT in Heaven. Foe no man can see GOD and Live. He is an all Consuming fire. So unbiblical your position is.

 

[Dino246]

This was briefly mentioned on another thread, so I wanted to bring it up here so we didn't detour the other thread.

So, my belief is that there is a duality to the God-head, not a trinity. The Father + Jesus. It's not that I don't believe in the "Holy Spirit", but I specifically link it to the Father and Jesus's spirit combined, not that it by itself is it's own person.

This is going to get complicated... so I'm going to do my best to make 1 point first before we go all over the place. So I'm asking to anyone who replies to my OP, to stick with this 1 point first as the main focus, otherwise trying to have a conversation about this is going to get chaotic.

So let's start with this one verse and build an argument around it. Feel free to build an argument against my conclusion but I want to start by focusing on this 1 verse.



Okay, let's break this down:

• Jesus is speaking, so we can take what He says with authority.
• He only mentions the Father making a home with Him. There is no 3rd party mentioned as a person.
• As a person, you yourself have a spirit. This is what continues to live when your body dies. So mention of a spirit, has to mention a person. You cannot have a spirit without a person-hood. Because a person has their own thoughts, emotions, speech, etc. So when there is a mention of person-hoods, the "Holy Spirit" is left out of that mix. (In this verse. If the Holy Spirit is it's own person-hood, why is it left out?)
• So any mention of the "Holy Spirit" in scripture would be in mention of The Father + Christ or any combination of the mix.

I respect your courage in tackling this issue, though I disagree with your conclusion.

 

[Researcher]

FYI...

Thread '**GUIDELINES FOR REPORTING POSTS**'

Nov 2, 2019

In light of some recent reported posts and in order to save Admin time dealing with reported posts it seems that some guidelines may be helpful. (these are not directed at any specific user)

**Make sure that the post you are reporting supports the behavior you are reporting. Don't click on some random post from a user and say they are being rude or that they are posting heresy unless that specific post supports the behavior being reported. None of us in Admin have the time (or inclination) to screen through hundreds of a user's posts trying to find the supposed offense....

• Oncefallen
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Bible Discussion Forum

• 

 

[Researcher]

The Trinity is as easy as 1, 2, 3...

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1. Word was with God
2. Word was God

Where is #3?

Here...

John 6:63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

3. Word is Spirit

There you have it. The Word has Spirit in it by default. Jesus has Spirit in him by default. the Father has Spirit in him by default.

The Spirit is always there, so most of the time it's redundant to mention it.

 

[Researcher]

Who sits on the throne, at the same time, occupying the same space?

Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

All three parts of the Godhead are referenced in the above verse.

They are all three sitting on the throne, yet they are One.

 

[Researcher]

Jesus is in the bosom of the Father:

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Literally. They are One with the Spirit.

 

[Delvianna]

There is big holes in your points you are making.

1. The Father and the Holy Spirit are there when Jesus was baptized. Matthew 3:13-17

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you.. its been a busy weekend and then Day of Atonement on Monday with Tabernacles coming up on friday and lot's to do... Anywho...

You can't split Matthew 3 into three beings. Let's start with verse 16-17:

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Okay, so we have 1 attribution, God's spirit. Specifically "God's". It's not listed as the "Holy Spirit", it's very specific, "God's". Then you see the manifestation of His spirit as a dove. That does not mean 1 being is in the dove and 1 being came from heaven. Because "God's spirit" is possessive. We can't ignore the grammar of this verse. Whose spirit? God's. Like saying, who owns this car? Mike does. It's how omnipresent God is. If you classify the spirit as a being, and God as a being, then you're limiting his omnipresence. God is here, the Holy spirit is there, Christ is there.

Remember: "I am in the Father and the Father in Me" - Jesus. If Jesus is also IN the Father while he's on earth, omnipresence.

2. John chapter 14:16, 26, John 15: 26 and 16:7.

It was Jesus who said the paraklétos the Holy Spirit call the Spirit of Truth.
who knows the mind of God. Who can know the mind of God but GOD? 1 Corinthians 2:11

The Holy Spirit is well established as God working in the world through men and women:

3. Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18, 20),
The Gospels record that Jesus was “led by the Spirit” (Matthew 4:1), Jesus was tempted in all points like we are, but “never once… yielded to temptation” — His victory came “in the power of the Holy Spirit” (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:12)

Jesus said Himself He was doing all by the Holy Spirit. How can one who acts, know what God knows, and led Jesus; not be God?

The human intellect cannot fully comprehend all there is to know of the Eternal Godhead, because we are limited where God is not.

We must approach the Spirit of God with reverence and humility.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, quenched, resisted and blasphemed.

Jesus said this sin would not be forgiven But HE said that which was spoken against Him would be forgiven.

TO say the Holy Spirit "is left out of the mix" when if one reads John 14, Jesus clearly says HE must Leave so the Spirit can come. How is that left out?

The Holy Spirit was not left out of the mix. He is here as Jesus said he would be.

Just because Jesus said or mentioned he was Going to the Father, he also said that the Spirit would Come and do what Jesus did another helper. In the Greek means Like the same kind.

The Holy Spirit is God and very much seen doing what only God can do in the word of God.

This is why I wanted to focus on ONE verse and not start dropping a ton of verses. I don't have the time, nor do I want to sit here and go through a bunch of verses that you just flung at me which is TWELVE of them. I'd really like to go into this, but you seriously ignored my request to start off focusing on something and decided that didn't matter.

I don't have the patience when people cannot stick to a request and instead of countering what I said about the verse at hand, just constantly want me to look elsewhere and overload with verses. This is impossible to talk about if you're going to overload me with verses. I can do the SAME THING and I'm choosing not to, so we can have a discussion.

So please, either stick to where I started and be considerate, or I can't reply to you because I'm trying to prevent this from being convoluted and chaotic and you're making it chaotic.

 

[Delvianna]

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible says there is one God the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

God would reveal His new name and speak to Israel.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said to Philip if he has seen Him then He has seen the Father.

And the words that He speaks are not His own but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.

So the Father revealed His new name Jesus and spoke to Israel.

Which is why the Son shall be called the everlasting Father for there is one God the Father.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit who is the Father for He is a Spirit.

Not a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints and Him in visible activity.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints and Him in spiritual activity which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the saints have the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This does not prove there is a trinity.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Adam was made in the image of God which is the figure of Christ.

The Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and created Adam in that image an innocent nature in flesh.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image not a trinity.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

John 5:43;I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus came in the Father's name.

The Son inherited that name.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles and the name is singular which the name is Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles, were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Everything we do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power be at His right hand until His enemies are conquered.

And when they are conquered the Son shall submit to God stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand is a temporary role and it does not mean He sits on a throne next to the Father.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

There is one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus and if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father.

While I agree with some of your points, I'm going to repeat what I said to CS1. I'm trying to not making this chaotic, and you're making it chaotic by just drop listing a bunch of verses and I just don't have the time nor energy to sit and go over every single one on context and disagreement. If we're going to have a discussion, please be considerate to my OP and reply to what I said, not just throwing a dozen verses at me.

 

[Delvianna]

I respect your courage in tackling this issue, though I disagree with your conclusion.

Fair enough. Thank you for your response

 

[Aaron56]

@Delvianna I appreciate your attention to this. It's something worth visiting. We should remember that the Nicene Creed is not from the scriptures but from the Roman Church. Given its history of war, woman and child abuse, the killing of the saints, etc., we should be wary of any universal declaration that comes out from them.

I believe in the Trinity, just not how the Romans defined it in the Nicene Creed.

Those who are led by the Spirit of God should have several problems with the Nicene Creed, IMO.
1. It was presided over by a politician whose main concern was the cohesion and longevity of the Roman Empire.
2. It states "And in one Lord Jesus Christ... being of one substance with the Father..." We should ask "What is the substance of God, Who is Spirit?" Furthermore, what is the "substance" of people who are included in Christ? We are certainly "His flesh and His bones" but not His natural "flesh and bones".
3. Lastly, in the line "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" the office of "prophet" is missing according to Ephesians 2:20.

These are just off the top of my head.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Trinity or duality?:

All I know is Humility In The GodHead! - According To The Scriptures:

1) The SON Humbly Submitted To The Father, and Was Sent To earth, as The Humble Servant!
(Luke 4:18; John 5:30, 5:36-37, 6:39, 6:44, 6:57, 7:29, 20:21 AV)

2) The Holy Spirit Was Doubly Humble, Being Sent By Both The Father And The SON!!
(John 14:26, 15:26 AV)

Excellent Examples For the saints, eh?

And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[CS1]

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you.. its been a busy weekend and then Day of Atonement on Monday with Tabernacles coming up on friday and lot's to do... Anywho...

You can't split Matthew 3 into three beings. Let's start with verse 16-17:

Okay, so we have 1 attribution, God's spirit. Specifically "God's". It's not listed as the "Holy Spirit", it's very specific, "God's". Then you see the manifestation of His spirit as a dove. That does not mean 1 being is in the dove and 1 being came from heaven. Because "God's spirit" is possessive. We can't ignore the grammar of this verse. Whose spirit? God's. Like saying, who owns this car? Mike does. It's how omnipresent God is. If you classify the spirit as a being, and God as a being, then you're limiting his omnipresence. God is here, the Holy spirit is there, Christ is there.

Remember: "I am in the Father and the Father in Me" - Jesus. If Jesus is also IN the Father while he's on earth, omnipresence.

This is why I wanted to focus on ONE verse and not start dropping a ton of verses. I don't have the time, nor do I want to sit here and go through a bunch of verses that you just flung at me which is TWELVE of them. I'd really like to go into this, but you seriously ignored my request to start off focusing on something and decided that didn't matter.

I don't have the patience when people cannot stick to a request and instead of countering what I said about the verse at hand, just constantly want me to look elsewhere and overload with verses. This is impossible to talk about if you're going to overload me with verses. I can do the SAME THING and I'm choosing not to, so we can have a discussion.

So please, either stick to where I started and be considerate, or I can't reply to you because I'm trying to prevent this from being convoluted and chaotic and you're making it chaotic.

LOL "Okay, so we have 1 attribution, God's spirit. Specifically "God's". It's not listed as the "Holy Spirit", it's very specific, "God's".
I find this very interesting statement because you failed to look at all Gospels that have speak on the Baptism of Jesus . John chapter one, John the Baptist bore record John1:32 "32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. "
The word "Spirit" is capitalized which signifies the Holy Spirit.

Luke chapter 3:22

"22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
AS we read the full Gospels account, we get a very clear Picture of who the "Spirit" is recorded in John chapter 1. It is the Holy Spirit.

"I don't have the patience when people cannot stick to a request and instead of countering what I said about the verse at hand, just constantly want me to look elsewhere and overload with verses. This is impossible to talk about if you're going to overload me with verses."

If you lack the ability to explain your position and then try to ignore the full word of God that states "The Holy Spirit as you suggested was NOT the Holy Spirit. I have no patience with you either.
"So please, either stick to where I started and be considerate, or I can't reply to you because I'm trying to prevent this from being convoluted and chaotic and you're making it chaotic."
What you really want is me to cut out the text in the word of God that proves your in error. The only Chaotic thing you are tying to mask over is those who know the word of God and refute your comment with the word of God.
AS I said You nor I can fully know all there is to the Eternal Godhead. The Father is God seen in the Word, The Son is God seen in the word of God, The Holy Spirit is God seen in the word of God. WE are all limited to full know all of God outside of the means HE provided for us to know him. That is you too.
The Father as God

• 1 Corinthians 8:6 – “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”
• Ephesians 4:4–6 – “There is one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

The Son as God

• John 1:1–3 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… All things were made through him…”
• John 10:30 – “I and the Father are one.”
• Colossians 2:9 – “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
• Isaiah 9:6 – “For to us a child is born… and he will be called… Mighty God, Everlasting Father…”

The Holy Spirit as God

• 2 Corinthians 3:17 – “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”
• Matthew 28:19 – “Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
• John 14:26 – “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things…”

Unity in the Godhead

• Matthew 28:19 – Shows the equal standing of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the mission of the Church
• 2 Corinthians 13:14 – “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

These verses together affirm that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, while also revealing their unity in one divine essence. This is the biblical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity, though the full mystery is beyond complete human explanation or your ability to fully know all.

 

[NightTwister]

Duality is heresy. It has been for nearly 2000 years.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

the full mystery is beyond complete human explanation or your ability to fully know all.

Amen. We can still acknowledge The Truth Of It, eh?:

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto​

all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of​

The Mystery of God, and of The Father, and of Christ;" (Colossians 2:2 AV) ​

​

Amen!

 

[CS1]

Amen. We can still acknowledge The Truth Of It, eh?:

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto​

all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of​

The Mystery of God, and of The Father, and of Christ;" (Colossians 2:2 AV) ​

​

Amen!

amen the truth of the means God provided by:
1. General Revelation that is His Creation Romans chapter 1.
2. By Special Revelation, His word. 1John 5:20 John 17:3.

3. Finally, by Relationship with God through the Son by the Holy Spirit.

Outside of these three we are limited to know all due to us being finite where God is Infinite.

 

[Aaron56]

Just some thoughts.

I think there is much more to who God IS than what most people consider. Assuming God wants to be known as He is ("Let there be light") we see the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But Father and Son are relational labels, dependent upon each other: with no son there is no father and visa versa. The Holy Spirit, then, is sent after Jesus ascends. Presumably He has His own will but only speaks what the Lord says to Him. ("..for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak") It's remarkable language given that He is also God.