True Born Again Christians Have Eternal Security

[svedbygrace]

It is antichrist !

To deny the Eternal Security of the Believer is a teaching of the Antichrist and it is a anti God Teaching. That means the teaching is against God and all His Glorious Attributes in order to exalt man.

Besides the scripture which is of believers in 1 Pet 1:5

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

That states Believers are being kept by the Power of God

The Antichrist teachers and followers deny this.

Another scripture that states that God keeps believers from all evil is here 2 Thess 3:3

But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now if one departs from God who was a True Believer, then the Lord has failed in His Faithfulness to establish the believer and to keep them from evil.

Departing from the Lord is evil according to Heb 3:12

12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

And it also makes scripture a liar in another place which states the True Believer, one born of God keepeth himself.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The sinneth not here is not a sinless perfection, but the sin here is apostasy, departing from God. The One Born of God cannot commit that sin. Why ? Because he has been born of God.

The word born as in "born of God" is a perfect passive participle, meaning born once and for all in the past, with results into the future. Its a permanent birth. So how can one permanently born of God depart from God ?

Those who deny this are of Antichrist, there is no other way to put it.

 

[homwardbound]

ever feel like writting something in a post that would please your flesh very VERY much but your held back because there is no use trying and could be very insulting?

yeah.... me too.

surprisingly yes in the past and thankfully as of late this has not taken control as it has in the past, I think this is just a part of growing in God's grace as I know you are as well

 

[homwardbound]

True Born Again Christians Have Eternal Security, as long as they remain committed, for God will be faithful to keep them. 2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

that post sounds as if we can't lose if we are truly in belief of God through the cross. There are many that come along to decieve but those that do believe may get sidetracked, but through the sidetrack, one learns truth over error and stands firm like a mighty oak tree did, it was a small nut that stood its ground

 

[svedbygrace]

It's Anti Christ !

Jesus said concerning His Sheep, that He gives them Eternal Life and that they Shall Never Perish ! Jn 10:27-28


27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There really is nothing else to say. Those who refuse to believe this are evidencing that they do not belong to Christ as one of His Sheep. Now there are many false christs today, and much uncertainty may be with their sheep, however the Christ that has been revealed to me, none of His Sheep will ever Perish, but they have Eternal Life.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

It depicts a man who was converted but had problems in the flesh. It depicts the struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. It also illustrates for the believer the perspective and mental attitude they should have toward this kind of conflict that every born again believer will face in their life as they learn how to receive and grow in grace and not live in condemnation. The regeneration of Paul's life, when he received the Spirit, was what caused the conflict to take place, this is why he learned how to glory in the cross that crucified his flesh so that he could walk by faith in the Spirit and not according to the impulses and dictates of the flesh even when he did good. It all related to his body of sin and death and the fact that sin was still occupying the members of his own body. To mortify the deeds of the flesh the believer learns how to receive grace and put those things off as he puts on the Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness. He may fail or have periods of failure but that does not change his standing with God but makes him realize his need for an abundance of grace.

Wow, well said!

 

[ChosenbyHim]

According to the scriptures it is...
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. - Hebrews 3:3-16 (King James Bible)


Starfield, taking the passage of Hebrews 3 in context, it is clear to see who this is being written to. It is written to Hebrews. Notice the emphasis which is being placed upon Moses. Remember Starfield, in the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews will have to endure unto the end by not taking the mark of the beast.


Also, to believe the Gospel is to obey the Gospel.


To not believe the Gospel is to not obey the Gospel:


In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 2 Thessalonians 1:8 (King James Bible)


[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17 (King James Bible)



As for Revelation 3:5, let's quote from verses 1 to 6 to get some context:


3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3:1-6 (King James Bible)

Now after reading the context, who is that being written to Starfield?

That passage clearly states that some will depart from the faith so they can't still remain born again believers.


ChosenbyHim, that passage is in direct contradiction to what you are teaching. Notice that verse 12 says "if we deny him, he also will deny us" then verse 13 says "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful", faithful to what? He abides faithful to His promise stated in verse 12 that if we deny Him He will deny us, because He cannot deny Himself. The passage does not say "if we believe not, yet he will not deny us: he cannot deny himself" yet are claiming that it says so. If a believer departs from the faith, becomes a devil worshiper, and lives in carnality, they won't remain children of God and they will be renounced before the Heavenly Father in Heaven, for God is no respecter of persons. Furthermore, Paul was quoting Jesus when he wrote that; take a look at the words of the Lord Jesus: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven (Matt 10:33).

To say that once saved you're always saved even though you stop believing in Jesus contradicts God's word.

Yes, that passage does teach that some will depart from the faith. But it does not teach that they lose their salvation. In 2 Timothy 11:11-13, it's basically teaching that whoever denies Jesus on this earth, He will deny them a reign in the Millennial Kingdom. That's what the passage is teaching Starfield.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. - 2 Timothy 2:10-13 (King James Bible)

The Context here Starfield, is a reign. Now when will Christ reign? it has to be talking about the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, because that is when Jesus will be physically reigning on this Earth from Jerusalem. It has to be referring to the Millennial Kingdom, because that is the very first time we will be reigning with Christ.


As of right now on this earth, we are not reigning. But in the Millennial Kingdom, we will be reigning with Christ Jesus, that is if we suffer for Him now while on this earth. The context is not talking about losing salvation. The context in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is talking about a denial of a reign for those who do not suffer for Christ Jesus. That is how they deny Him. By conforming to the world and not to Scripture. Christians that lose their first love, and end up falling for the world and wanting to be popular with the world is a good example of a Christian that will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.


There are Christians right now who have departed from the faith, and they have given heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. A good example of this would be some of the true Christians who have gotten caught up in the Charismatic Cult, or who have fallen for the Hebrew Roots Movement or the Sacred Name Movement. When A christian does not stay in God's word, but instead reads the New Age book such as purpose driven life or some other book, that Christian is capable of departing from the true faith and yet still being saved. If our salvation was based on us believing until the day we died, that would be salvation by works. We repent, then we believe once, we trust once, and we get SAVED ONCE. And notice in verse 13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. That is basically teaching that if we get so carnal that we just stop believing, that Jesus still abides faithful. He cannot deny Himself (Body of Christ).


That's what it says. The passage is not teaching that Christians can lose salvation. A Christian cannot lose his or her salvation in the this dispensation. A true born again Christian in this dispensation is a member of the Body of Christ, and he is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption. The passage is teaching that if a Christian does not suffer while on this earth, then that Christian will not reign in the Millennial Kingdom.

So you're saying the teachings of Jesus Christ don't apply to believers today?
Jesus was teaching a valuable lesson of repentance in the parable of the prodigal son which should not be overlooked. A believer can become lost again, can err from the truth, shipwreck their faith, fall from grace, in which they would need to repent and return to the Lord and seek His mercy. That was the case of the churches in Revelation.


Read verse 1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". It's the same chapter so vs. 29-39 applies to those who aren't walking after the flesh but after the Spirit (who have steadfast faith, not spurious faith).

No, I am not teaching works-based salvation but discerning whether genuine faith is present or not. Genuine faith produces fruit as the bible says we are saved by grace to do good works which the Lord ordained (Eph 2:8-10).
Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Starfield, we are to consent to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. - 1 Timothy 6:3-5 (King James Bible)


Again, We are to consent to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now as we read the Gospels, we need to be mindful of two things though. Number 1: Doctrinally, when Jesus and His Jewish Apostles were preaching and teaching, they were still under the Mosaic Law (See Luke 2:22, & Matthew 8:4) And Number 2: Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. From Matthew 5:1-12, the Passage is a teaching doctrinally aimed for the Millennial Kingdom. They will be the Law of this world during the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ.


The New Testament did not start until the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Once Jesus commended His spirit into the hands of His Father, and gave up the ghost (See Mark 15:37), that is when the New Testament began.


[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. - Hebrews 9:16-18 (King James Bible)

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You, on the other hand, are teaching that God's grace is a license to sin since you claim that a believer can become carnal and depart from the faith and still be in a justified state. This doctrine you are propagating was orchestrated by Satan in the beginning: "You can sin and not surely die" (Gen 3:3-4). Satan assured Eve that she could disobey God and still be in right terms with Him and this lead to their fall from grace to disgrace. It's the same thing these OSAS preachers are resounding from the pulpits and masses have fallen for the lies of these wolves in sheep's clothing. No wonder why Jesus said narrow is the way that leads to life and very few will find it. Many that think they are on the narrow way are actually on the broad way to destruction because of this damnable doctrine that comforts you in sin. What a pity!

No, I am not Starfield. We are not to use God's grace as a license to sin. Let's see what Paul said about this matter:


6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13[/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 (King James Bible)


We are not use grace as a license to sin. Having said that, if a Christian becomes carnal though, that does not mean he will not be chastened or punished. Because he will be punished and chastened if he is a child of the living God.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. - Hebrews 12:6-10 (King James Bible)


So if a person is truly saved, when they slip and come short of the glory, they will be chastened.


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: - Job 5:17 (King James Bible)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction: - Proverbs 3:11 (King James Bible)



Starfield, people like you who deny Eternal Security attack and wrongly accuse us who believe in eternal security of teaching that grace is a license to sin. That is not true at all. We who believe in Eternal Security of the Born again believer do not teach that grace is a license to sin. We Bible believers who believe in the Eternal Security of the born again Believer, teach that if you mess with sin, you can lose a lot of things. You can lose the joy of your salvation, your carnality and worldliness can cause your fellowship with the Father and with the Lord to be broken, you can lose rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat of Christ, you can lose your Millennial Inheritance, you can lose your health, you can lose your money, you could possibly lose your family depending on what kind of sin it is, and you can even lose your life. But one thing you cannot lose is your salvation. No where in the Bible do I ever find terms like: "Unborn again," "re-saved," or "Re-Born again." I have never found such terms in the Scriptures. They are no where to be found in the Holy Bible. Once you are born again, you CANNOT BE UN-BORN AGAIN.


So again Starfield, we who believe in eternal security do not encourage Christians to keep sinning. We warn Christians of the consequences of sinning.


Now there may be false prophets out there who actually teach that you can sin and get away with it.


But we Bible believers do not teach that. And to say that we do, when we truly do not, is deception on your part Starfield. Again, a true Bible believing preacher who believes in Eternal Security of the Born again Believer will warn the Christian of what he can lose if he messes with sin. And a Christian can definitely lose a lot. But not his salvation. I don't know about you Starfield, but I don't think the Judgment Seat of Christ is going to be an easy time for a lot of Christians. And I am sure I will have a rough time myself at the Judgment Seat of Christ, I am sure that I will see works which I had done burned up because I did them for the wrong motive. Or that I did them with the wrong motive. That is why we must examine ourselves. We must examine our hearts.


I mean to live carnally on this earth after being saved, after knowing of the sacrifice which Jesus Christ did on the cross for us, and not having anything to show FOR ALL ETERNITY because of rewards lost and works being burned up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That should make cause for major concern, wouldn't you say Starfield?

Yes we are kept by the power of God while we surrender our lives to Him. Read further down:
1 Peter 1:13-16
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Christians should follow and do everything in that passage which you just quoted. But knowing human nature and the wicked heart of man, a lot of times you will have Christians that still struggle in the flesh. It is a war, like Paul illustrated in Romans 7.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. - Galatians 5:17 (King James Bible)


Christians should indeed surrender their lives to God. It is called discipleship. Now there is a difference between salvation and discipleship. But a Christians salvation is not dependent upon them surrendering their lives to God. If it was, then it would be salvation by works.

That's correct to a degree, the lost won't see Christ in us, but that verse also says that we won't see God (denied entry into His kingdom) without holiness.

Well if you are referring to a reign in the Millennial Kingdom, then that may be applicable to some degree, I am not really sure if that is the case though. I just know for certain that it is referring to our testimony to the lost world. And if a Christian has to be holy or live holy to enter into Heaven, than that Christian was never saved by grace through faith alone. But he was saved by faith and his works. Or he was saved by faith and his living a holy life. Do you see the point I am trying to make here Starfield? In heaven, that Christian will boast that it was faith and his holy living that got him into Heaven. So that Christian who got to heaven because he lived a holy life will be a commodity. Everyone else will be singing about the Blood of the Lamb, while he is over there in the corner bragging about how his living a holy life got him saved.


Now obviously that is not going to happen, again, I am just trying to make a point of what the scenario would be like. All of us in the Church Age are only saved by grace through faith. Now having said that, we should indeed live holy lives unto the Father. Bringing glory and honour unto the Father. But we are not to become high-minded in thinking that it is our good works or our holy living that is keeping us saved. Because it is NOT. Again, if our good works or our holy living kept us saved, then that would be salvation by works and not of faith alone. And I hope you are starting to see that Starfield.


Because according to Ephesians 2:8-9, we are not saved by works but by grace through faith:



[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

Oh yes it is. Read the passage again: Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

And what is the context Starfied? To follow peace with all men, and holiness. The being set apart or sanctification of the believer, is what is a testimony to the lost world. The more holy lives we live, the better our testimony toward those who are without will be. So again, could that verse also have an application to the Millennial Kingdom? Perhaps. I mean the verse is addressed mainly to the Hebrews. So I could see why that may be. Again though, I am not exactly sure, but I do know that it is talking about our testimony to the lost men and women out there. Who we walk by or interact on a daily basis, people at grocery stores, the malls, the park, the Bank, or that Restaurant down the street, etc. It definitely has that kind of an application for instruction in righteousness.

So you're saying here that one can backslide and apostatise and still be in a justified state? But that's not what Jesus taught. The prodigal son was spiritually dead while he was gallivanting with harlots and wallowing in the pigsty. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry (Luke 15:24).

Okay but let me ask you though Starfield. Was the Prodigal Son a Christian?

What I am saying is that in the Church Age, if a true Born Again believer does end up backsliding, then God will chasten him since whom the Lord loveth, he chastenenth ( See Heb. 12:6).
But that Christian will not lose his salvation, because he is a member of the Body of Christ and he is sealed by the Holy Spirit (See 1 Cor. 12:27 & Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

Once again that is not what the bible teaches.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Yes I am aware of that verse. And that verse is not talking about one losing his salvation. It is talking about sowing to the flesh and being carnally minded will lead to a stagnate and lukewarm life for a Christian. He won't be excited about the things of God. He won't be excited about reading the word of God, he won't be excited about prayer, won't be excited about evangelism and soul winning, he won't have a zeal to lead and win others to Christ. He will suffer from depression at times because instead of going to the word of God for counsel and help, he instead goes to humanistic Psychology. I could list several other examples. But here is another thing Starfield, the Judgment Seat of Christ is where Christians will stand to have their works judged. And I have not found anything in the passages talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ, where a Christian loses his salvation. I never found a teaching like that. That is because it is not there.


[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:9-15 (King James Bible)


So a Christians works will be burned if they were done with the wrong motive (wood, hay, stubble). But the Christian himself shall be saved, yet as by fire.

Also, if you read about that man who committed adultery and incest with his father's wife, then you know that his flesh was given over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, yet he was still saved. (See 1 Corinthians 5:1-13).

 

[svedbygrace]

The Eternal Security of God's Elect !

One of the most blessed Truths in all of scripture regarding Christ and those He died for, that of their Everlasting Security, they are the ones whose names were written in the book of life from everlasting, and they never can Perish. Christ death for them is quite effectual, by which He obtained their Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

They are Chosen sinners for whom He was slain, and they shall never perish Jn 10:27-30


27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

For the purpose of God cannot be thwarted Rom 8:28-30; 2 Tim 1:9, also the Blood of Christ cannot loose its efficacy, nor be shed in vain; The Spirit's Seal cannot be broken Eph 1:13-14;4:30; The Grace of God cannot be defeated or out done by sin and death Rom 5:21. The Gifts of God cannot be taken back Rom 11:29, and God's promise cannot fail Titus 1:2.30

 

[svedbygrace]

Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Those who reject the biblical teaching of Eternal Security for the Believer, they do not believe Pauls words to some believers 2 Thess 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now its evil for one to depart from the Lord Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

So if one who truly believes can depart from God as desribed here, then Paul lied in 2 Thess 3:3, even moreso, God the Holy Spirit lied since He inspired Paul on what to write !

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Those who reject the biblical teaching of Eternal Security for the Believer, they do not believe Pauls words to some believers 2 Thess 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now its evil for one to depart from the Lord Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

So if one who truly believes can depart from God as desribed here, then Paul lied in 2 Thess 3:3, even moreso, God the Holy Spirit lied since He inspired Paul on what to write !

I agree and if one departs then they never truly believed to begin with. I know I am saved by God and God's finished work at the cross, and he has stablished me to hide in him where I am safe and secure

 

[starfield]

Starfield, taking the passage of Hebrews 3 in context, it is clear to see who this is being written to. It is written to Hebrews. Notice the emphasis which is being placed upon Moses. Remember Starfield, in the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews will have to endure unto the end by not taking the mark of the beast.

Something I want to point out. I notice in most of your posts you mention that salvation during Jacob’s trouble will be different from this Church age dispensation in that good works does not have to accompany our faith in this dispensation whereas in the time of Jacob’s trouble it does. On the contrary, while we aren’t saved by works our works determine whether authentic faith is present or not (see Eph 2:10, James 2:17-26). In Jacob’s trouble the only difference with salvation is that if one takes the mark of the beast they are doomed for eternity, in other words they have acquired the permanent seal of Satan and have no chance for repentance. However, we are now under God's grace in essence, there is opportunity for repentance and forgiveness of sins committed after salvation if one asks God for forgiveness (1 John 2:1-2), this is because of Christ’s provision on the cross. His grace not only forgives sin but empowers us to overcome sin. ChosenbyHim, cherry-picking and isolating passages out of their context is battering of scripture - that’s not rightly dividing the word of truth but rather mishandling the word of God.

As for Revelation 3:5, let's quote from verses 1 to 6 to get some context:
Now after reading the context, who is that being written to Starfield?

The body of Christ (believers).

Yes, that passage does teach that some will depart from the faith. But it does not teach that they lose their salvation. In 2 Timothy 11:11-13, it's basically teaching that whoever denies Jesus on this earth, He will deny them a reign in the Millennial Kingdom. That's what the passage is teaching Starfield.

So if you depart from the faith you still have faith? If one leaves Russia, are they still in Russia? Do you see where I’m getting at?

As of right now on this earth, we are not reigning. But in the Millennial Kingdom, we will be reigning with Christ Jesus, that is if we suffer for Him now while on this earth. The context is not talking about losing salvation. The context in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is talking about a denial of a reign for those who do not suffer for Christ Jesus. That is how they deny Him. By conforming to the world and not to Scripture. Christians that lose their first love, and end up falling for the world and wanting to be popular with the world is a good example of a Christian that will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Starfield, people like you who deny Eternal Security attack and wrongly accuse us who believe in eternal security of teaching that grace is a license to sin. That is not true at all. We who believe in Eternal Security of the Born again believer do not teach that grace is a license to sin. We Bible believers who believe in the Eternal Security of the born again Believer, teach that if you mess with sin, you can lose a lot of things. You can lose the joy of your salvation, your carnality and worldliness can cause your fellowship with the Father and with the Lord to be broken, you can lose rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat of Christ, you can lose your Millennial Inheritance, you can lose your health, you can lose your money, you could possibly lose your family depending on what kind of sin it is, and you can even lose your life. But one thing you cannot lose is your salvation. No where in the Bible do I ever find terms like: "Unborn again," "re-saved," or "Re-Born again." I have never found such terms in the Scriptures. They are no where to be found in the Holy Bible. Once you are born again, you CANNOT BE UN-BORN AGAIN.

Okay, could you clarify this, what do you mean by losing millennial inheritance? Perhaps show scriptures explicitly stating loss of millennial inheritance? If they don't reign with Christ in the millennium then doesn't that mean they were unsaved?

There are Christians right now who have departed from the faith, and they have given heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. A good example of this would be some of the true Christians who have gotten caught up in the Charismatic Cult, or who have fallen for the Hebrew Roots Movement or the Sacred Name Movement. When A christian does not stay in God's word, but instead reads the New Age book such as purpose driven life or some other book, that Christian is capable of departing from the true faith and yet still being saved. If our salvation was based on us believing until the day we died, that would be salvation by works.

So you’re saying these cultic people will inherit the kingdom of God just because they profess to have faith even though aren't doing the will of God i.e. obeying Him? Is that what scripture says, ChosenbyHim? Jesus said “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matt 7:21,23). ChosenbyHim, quite frankly some of these cult folks were never saved to begin with; not all that profess to believe are in Christ, for even the devils believe.

We repent, then we believe once, we trust once, and we get SAVED ONCE. And notice in verse 13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. That is basically teaching that if we get so carnal that we just stop believing, that Jesus still abides faithful. He cannot deny Himself (Body of Christ).

I explained that passage already. Notice that 1 Tim 2:12 says "if we deny him, he also will deny us" then verse 13 says "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful", so what is He faithful to? He abides faithful to the promise stated in verse 12 that if we deny Him He will also deny us, because He cannot deny Himself. The passage does not say "if we believe not, yet he will not deny us: he cannot deny himself". ChosenbyHim, to claim that a believer can totally deny Jesus Christ, persist in rebellion, and still be in a justified state is sheer blasphemy!

No, I am not Starfield. We are not to use God's grace as a license to sin. Let's see what Paul said about this matter...

We are not use grace as a license to sin. Having said that, if a Christian becomes carnal though, that does not mean he will not be chastened or punished. Because he will be punished and chastened if he is a child of the living God.

What if one fails to heed to chastening, are they still children of God?

So again Starfield, we who believe in eternal security do not encourage Christians to keep sinning. We warn Christians of the consequences of sinning.

By downplaying the consequence of sin, y'all are indirectly encouraging perpetual disobedience.

Now there may be false prophets out there who actually teach that you can sin and get away with it. But we Bible believers do not teach that. And to say that we do, when we truly do not, is deception on your part Starfield. Again, a true Bible believing preacher who believes in Eternal Security of the Born again Believer will warn the Christian of what he can lose if he messes with sin. And a Christian can definitely lose a lot. But not his salvation. I don't know about you Starfield, but I don't think the Judgment Seat of Christ is going to be an easy time for a lot of Christians. And I am sure I will have a rough time myself at the Judgment Seat of Christ, I am sure that I will see works which I had done burned up because I did them for the wrong motive. Or that I did them with the wrong motive. That is why we must examine ourselves. We must examine our hearts.

But the warning by these so-called bible believing preacher portray half the picture. Yes, one can lose blessings, health, family, etc., for messing with sin but one can also forfeit their final salvation (which is entering Heaven). These so-called bible believing preachers never claim that“the soul that sinneth it shall die”, they never say “they that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” and you're saying these wolves in sheep’s clothing aren’t encouraging licentiousness? They preach Satan’s message that there is no sin a believer can commit that will condemn them.

I mean to live carnally on this earth after being saved, after knowing of the sacrifice which Jesus Christ did on the cross for us, and not having anything to show FOR ALL ETERNITY because of rewards lost and works being burned up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That should make cause for major concern, wouldn't you say Starfield?

I already explained this issue of losing rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ on this thread. What some may not have to show for all eternity is souls won for Christ if their converts do not remain in the faith thus they will lose reward. That’s what people will lose rewards for as per 1 Cor 3. Paul was building a spiritual foundation upon the foundation of Christ and was concerned that his work for the church might be in vain because of their divisiveness and carnal behaviour, in addition some may not persist in the faith thus he would lose reward for his service in the church. Unprofitable service is like wood, hay, and stubble while profitable one is like gold, silver, and precious stones. Paul wasn't claiming that we can go back to our sins and just suffer rewards. Nowhere in the bible does it say a believer can live carnally and only lose eternal rewards. Look at Rom 8:6, Gal 5:29-21, and Rev 21:8 for the destination of people that live carnally.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Christians should follow and do everything in that passage which you just quoted. But knowing human nature and the wicked heart of man, a lot of times you will have Christians that still struggle in the flesh. It is a war, like Paul illustrated in Romans 7.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. - Galatians 5:17 (King James Bible)

The doctrine of Total Depravity is never an excuse for sin in the life of any believer. The bible says that it is the unregenerate's heart that is desperately wicked. The believer's heart, however, is no longer desperately wicked because of the transforming work of the Holy Spirit at regeneration, they are no longer slaves to sin (Rom 6:6), and they are no longer living like the children of wrath, rather have forsaken the old life and are living out the new life of righteousness in Christ Jesus. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor 5:17). God has provided us with everything that pertains to life and godliness; we have His sufficient grace and the empowerment of the indwelling Holy Spirit to live a life of godliness in this world. We shouldn't depreciate the power of God.

Christians should indeed surrender their lives to God. It is called discipleship. Now there is a difference between salvation and discipleship. But a Christians salvation is not dependent upon them surrendering their lives to God. If it was, then it would be salvation by works.

It is the free grace/licentious position that states that salvation and discipleship are separate from each other. However, salvation is never separated from discipleship. Those who are saved surrender their lives to God in obedience and thus are disciples of Christ whereas those who do not surrender their lives to God are not saved thus aren't disciples of Christ. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).The author of Hebrews stated that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to the obedient…and please don’t tell me that this does not apply to church-age believers.

 

[starfield]

Well if you are referring to a reign in the Millennial Kingdom, then that may be applicable to some degree, I am not really sure if that is the case though. I just know for certain that it is referring to our testimony to the lost world. And if a Christian has to be holy or live holy to enter into Heaven, than that Christian was never saved by grace through faith alone. But he was saved by faith and his works. Or he was saved by faith and his living a holy life. Do you see the point I am trying to make here Starfield? In heaven, that Christian will boast that it was faith and his holy living that got him into Heaven. So that Christian who got to heaven because he lived a holy life will be a commodity. Everyone else will be singing about the Blood of the Lamb, while he is over there in the corner bragging about how his living a holy life got him saved.

ChosenbyHim, that passage is clear; no holiness/heart purity = no heaven. That’s the overall message of the scripture and even Jesus spoke of it in the beatitudes. Now are you saying we won’t be able to boast in heaven if we have faith but live a life of disobedience while on earth? Is that what the scripture say, ChosenbyHim? Paul said he exercise himself to have a conscience void of offense (heart purity) toward God and men yet he didn’t glory except in the cross of Christ. Now isn’t that the testimony of a true believer? If an individual thinks they can boast of their “holiness” in heaven then such individual does not have genuine salvation to begin with. When there is unfeigned love for God there won't be boasting in self. Faith works otherwise it's not different from the devils' (James 2:19). The bible teaches of obedient faith.

Because according to Ephesians 2:8-9, we are not saved by works but by grace through faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

And don't omit verse 10.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are saved by grace through faith to do good works.

And what is the context Starfied? To follow peace with all men, and holiness. The being set apart or sanctification of the believer, is what is a testimony to the lost world. The more holy lives we live, the better our testimony toward those who are without will be. So again, could that verse also have an application to the Millennial Kingdom? Perhaps. I mean the verse is addressed mainly to the Hebrews. So I could see why that may be. Again though, I am not exactly sure, but I do know that it is talking about our testimony to the lost men and women out there. Who we walk by or interact on a daily basis, people at grocery stores, the malls, the park, the Bank, or that Restaurant down the street, etc. It definitely has that kind of an application for instruction in righteousness.

No, that's stretching it. The verse is self-explanatory - one won’t enter heaven without holiness.

Okay but let me ask you though Starfield. Was the Prodigal Son a Christian?

What I am saying is that in the Church Age, if a true Born Again believer does end up backsliding, then God will chasten him since whom the Lord loveth, he chastenenth ( See Heb. 12:6).
But that Christian will not lose his salvation, because he is a member of the Body of Christ and he is sealed by the Holy Spirit (See 1 Cor. 12:27 & Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

ChosenbyHim, should we now throw Jesus’ teachings out the window since, according to you, they are inapplicable to this dispensation?

So a Christians works will be burned if they were done with the wrong motive (wood, hay, stubble). But the Christian himself shall be saved, yet as by fire.

Also, if you read about that man who committed adultery and incest with his father's wife, then you know that his flesh was given over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, yet he was still saved. (See 1 Corinthians 5:1-13).

Is Paul now contradicting himself if we go by your interpretation of 1 Cor 5:1-13? That Paul said the incestuous person was still saved but then in the next chapter (1 Cor 6:9-10) he said fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God? You have to compare scripture with scripture and look at the immediate context of a verse, ChosenbyHim. Paul was saying they should excommunicate the man from their midst in a way that would lead to reformation of his conduct thereby saving his spirit, in essence discipline the man. Look at verse 11 and 13: "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person". Paul wasn’t insinuating that the incestuous person will get to heaven IN his sins but lose rewards. To say otherwise is sacrilege!

ChosenbyHim, it appears you have great zeal for the scripture but unfortunately it’s a misdirected one, you don’t rightly divide the word of truth as you often tell people to do. You really need to re-examine the ramification of this unconditional eternal security doctrine, how it blasphemes the glorious work of Christ - that one can profess Christ, live in disobedience to Him, and still enter heaven. If that's the case then Christ died in vain, He didn’t die to purify himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works, He died to give us leeway to sin the more and still enter heaven, thus grace is a license to sin. This doctrine mocks God.

 

[svedbygrace]

Its denying the Gospel of Substitution !

To teach or believe that any sinner for whom Christ died, shall be lost or can be lost, is a flat out and blatant denial and repudiation of the Gospel Truth of substitution, that Christ died in the stead of Chosen sinners ! Now either Christ bore the full extent of God's wrath for those He died for, dying for every last one of their iniquities, to include unbelief, and God has been completely satisfied with Justice for those persons, in Christ death, or He has not. The persons faith or repentance has nothing to with it ! Matt 20:28

28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

This little word for is key to understanding the doctrine of substitution, for it is the greek preposition anti:


over against, opposite to, before

2) for, instead of, in place of (something)

a) instead of

Christ gave His Life, His Soul a ransom to God's Justice, instead of or in the place of the many for whom He died !

Now, based on that Fact, if they are not Eternally Secure, then its a denial and repudiation of Christ Substitutionary and atoning death ! Which is a Gospel Truth !32

 

[starfield]

Its denying the Gospel of Substitution !

To teach or believe that any sinner for whom Christ died, shall be lost or can be lost, is a flat out and blatant denial and repudiation of the Gospel Truth of substitution, that Christ died in the stead of Chosen sinners ! Now either Christ bore the full extent of God's wrath for those He died for, dying for every last one of their iniquities, to include unbelief, and God has been completely satisfied with Justice for those persons, in Christ death, or He has not. The persons faith or repentance has nothing to with it ! Matt 20:28

28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

This little word for is key to understanding the doctrine of substitution, for it is the greek preposition anti:


over against, opposite to, before

2) for, instead of, in place of (something)

a) instead of

Christ gave His Life, His Soul a ransom to God's Justice, instead of or in the place of the many for whom He died !

Now, based on that Fact, if they are not Eternally Secure, then its a denial and repudiation of Christ Substitutionary and atoning death ! Which is a Gospel Truth !32

Can you provide passages that explicitly state that God elected some to salvation?

Also, this proves that Christ died for all men including those who will perish in hell:
II Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

In other words, if by Christ's death one is automatically saved (apart from faith and repentance) then these false prophets whom Christ died for wouldn't perish in their sins. So how do you reconcile the above passage with your assertions?

 

[svedbygrace]

star

Can you provide passages that explicitly state that God elected some to salvation?

Did you understand the points of post 353 ? You quoted it but evaded the points. Please rehearse the points with me so I know you understand them, but you may disagree with them !

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Something I want to point out. I notice in most of your posts you mention that salvation during Jacob’s trouble will be different from this Church age dispensation in that good works does not have to accompany our faith in this dispensation whereas in the time of Jacob’s trouble it does. On the contrary, while we aren’t saved by works our works determine whether authentic faith is present or not (see Eph 2:10, James 2:17-26). In Jacob’s trouble the only difference with salvation is that if one takes the mark of the beast they are doomed for eternity, in other words they have acquired the permanent seal of Satan and have no chance for repentance. However, we are now under God's grace in essence, there is opportunity for repentance and forgiveness of sins committed after salvation if one asks God for forgiveness (1 John 2:1-2), this is because of Christ’s provision on the cross. His grace not only forgives sin but empowers us to overcome sin. ChosenbyHim, cherry-picking and isolating passages out of their context is battering of scripture - that’s not rightly dividing the word of truth but rather mishandling the word of God.

Well yes God does help us to overcome sin in our lives. I am aware of that. But if a Christian does not spend time in the word, but puts his focus on other things over the word of God, well then sooner or later that Christian is going to become carnal. You have to spend quality time in the word of God if you want to have a pure and clean life.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. - Psalm 119:9 (King James Bible)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. - Psalm 119:11 (King James Bible)

Getting the pure word of God in you is a sure and great way to sanctify your Christian life.

The body of Christ (believers).


So if you depart from the faith you still have faith? If one leaves Russia, are they still in Russia? Do you see where I’m getting at?

I think I do. But you are forgetting one thing. If a person has to keep strong in the faith to remain saved or to keep their salvation. Then that is still salvation by works.

Okay, could you clarify this, what do you mean by losing millennial inheritance? Perhaps show scriptures explicitly stating loss of millennial inheritance?

Okay Starfield, I'll try my best. The Bible does teach that if we suffer, that we will also reign with Christ. But if we deny Him (as in not suffering for Him) then He will deny us (as in He will deny us a reign in the Millennial Kingdom). Here are the Scriptures Starfield:


[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
[SUP]10[/SUP]Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:8-15(King James Bible)

Also here are some Scriptures that refer to an inheritance given to us:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. - Acts 20:32 (King James Bible)



[SUP]18 [/SUP]To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. - Acts 26:18 (King James Bible)


Now as for Scriptures teaching of teaching a possible loss of inheritance:



[SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:3-15 (King James Bible)

From these Scriptures you can see that among the rewards that can be lost, Millennial Inheritance could be one of them. Since there will be different kind of crowns and also different types of rewards given at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The test and examination that's done here in this passage is to test every man's work. To see what sort it is. Motives behind each work will most likely be examined. And if the motives behind doing a certain work is not pure, then most likely the work will show up as either wood, hay, or stubble.

If they don't reign with Christ in the millennium then doesn't that mean they were unsaved?

Well not necessarily, because you have to keep in mind while a Christian cannot lose his salvation in the Church Age, that still does not mean that he cannot lose a lot of other things. Have you ever studied the account of Lot. It is very interesting. Lot is a type and picture of a Christian that loses just about all his rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So it is possible for a Christian to be denied a Reign in the Millennial Kingdom, although he is saved eternally.

So you’re saying these cultic people will inherit the kingdom of God just because they profess to have faith even though aren't doing the will of God i.e. obeying Him? Is that what scripture says, ChosenbyHim? Jesus said “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matt 7:21,23). ChosenbyHim, quite frankly some of these cult folks were never saved to begin with; not all that profess to believe are in Christ, for even the devils believe.

Matthew &:21-23 is talking about false converts and false prophets. That is the context Starfield. Notice what Jesus says to those people by the way: He says: "I NEVER knew you." Which means these people who professed faith in Jesus never truly got saved. They never repented and believed on the Lord Jesus. That's why Jesus says to them that He never knew them.

I explained that passage already. Notice that 1 Tim 2:12 says "if we deny him, he also will deny us" then verse 13 says "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful", so what is He faithful to? He abides faithful to the promise stated in verse 12 that if we deny Him He will also deny us, because He cannot deny Himself. The passage does not say "if we believe not, yet he will not deny us: he cannot deny himself". ChosenbyHim, to claim that a believer can totally deny Jesus Christ, persist in rebellion, and still be in a justified state is sheer blasphemy!

Starfield, it seems to me that you still don't understand the point being made in regard to eternal security. First of all Starfield, from reading that passage in 1 Timothy 2, how does a Christian deny Jesus Christ? The context in that passage is clearly talking about a Reign.


Notice that the verse said if we deny Him, He will deny us. The verse DID NOT say that He would disown us. He will never disown His children. We are still God's children. But remember a Christian can lose out on a Reign in the Millennial Kingdom if he does not suffer while on this earth.


Now in regard to justification. Who Justifies us? Is it our works which justify us?


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. - Romans 3:19-31 (King James Bible)


What makes us Justified, is the grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Our trust and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what is necessary for salvation. And Jesus is the one who saves us.

Our works are not included. It is by grace through faith, and not of works.

What if one fails to heed to chastening, are they still children of God?

Well let me ask you Starfield. Have your mom or dad ever spanked you and discipline you and yet after a while you failed to heed their command? Did that make you any less of a child to them? No, you were still part of the family, but if you kept rebelling against your family I am sure that your fellowship with them would be broken. YET you would still be their child. They may not be pleased with you or with your conduct, but nevertheless, you are still their child and they are still your parents.


It works the same way in God's Family. God loves us so much that He gives us a free will. Even after we get saved, we still HAVE A Free Will. A free will to serve Him or a Free will not to. A Free will to allow Him to take full control over our life or a Free will to run life how we feel like it.

Remember Starfield, Salvation comes first. Then Discipleship. A Christian should choose to serve the Lord Jesus Christ and to read His word daily and to seek to conform more and more to His word.

But we have to remember, that Christian still has a free will.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

By downplaying the consequence of sin, y'all are indirectly encouraging perpetual disobedience.

Oh no Starfield, I am not downplaying the consequence of sin. Not at all. We Bible believers who believe in the Eternal Security of the Born Again Believer also teach that all sin is negative. And there are grave and very serious consequences to sin. Read the life of David, and how his sin of committing Adultery and Murder affected his life and family in a negative way. Study it.


Read about that man who was committing adultery and fornication with his fathers wife. What happened to his body? To his flesh? It was delivered over to Satan for its destruction. YET the man was still saved!!! How is that possible, you might be wondering. Because the man whether we want to believe it or not, was GENUINELY SAVED. But he allowed Satan to get an open door into his life by messing with sin. And because of that his flesh on this earth was DESTROYED. Starfield, there are deep and grave consequences of committing sin. ALL SIN IS NEGATIVE. And if a person is dumb enough to keep messing with sin, then, well he can expect to have a rough time at the Judgment Seat of Christ.


Plus, that carnal Christian will have a defeated life while on this earth. He won't have any fellowship with the Father, no joy, no peace.


Just a rotten life. And just a wasted life ruined by messing around with sin.


But the bottom line is that, a true Born Again Christian Cannot lose his salvation no matter how hard he tries.


Salvation is anew birth Starfield. And nothing can negate that spiritual birth.

But the warning by these so-called bible believing preacher portray half the picture. Yes, one can lose blessings, health, family, etc., for messing with sin but one can also forfeit their final salvation (which is entering Heaven). These so-called bible believing preachers never claim that“the soul that sinneth it shall die”, they never say “they that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” and you're saying these wolves in sheep’s clothing aren’t encouraging licentiousness? They preach Satan’s message that there is no sin a believer can commit that will condemn them.

No Starfield, the one thing they will not lose is their salvation.


Let me ask you Starfield, that verse you quoted from the Old Testament. Let's quote the bigger passage for context:


[SUP]17 [/SUP]That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. - Ezekiel 18:17-22 (King James Bible)




Back there in Ezekiel, the Jews were under the Law. They were under a different system back then. There was no eternal security back then. The people who lived under the Old Testament were not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise like we are today in the Church Age.


And in regard to the other passage:


[SUP]9 [/SUP]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (King James Bible)


In the Church Age, which is the Dispensation which we are now living in, what is exactly the Kingdom of God? Here is the answer:


[SUP]14 [/SUP]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[SUP]16[/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. - Romans 14:14-18 (King James Bible)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. - Luke 17:20-22 (King James Bible)

I already explained this issue of losing rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ on this thread. What some may not have to show for all eternity is souls won for Christ if their converts do not remain in the faith thus they will lose reward. That’s what people will lose rewards for as per 1 Cor 3. Paul was building a spiritual foundation upon the foundation of Christ and was concerned that his work for the church might be in vain because of their divisiveness and carnal behaviour, in addition some may not persist in the faith thus he would lose reward for his service in the church. Unprofitable service is like wood, hay, and stubble while profitable one is like gold, silver, and precious stones. Paul wasn't claiming that we can go back to our sins and just suffer rewards. Nowhere in the bible does it say a believer can live carnally and only lose eternal rewards. Look at Rom 8:6, Gal 5:29-21, and Rev 21:8 for the destination of people that live carnally.

If that is the case Starfield, then why is it that when he was addressing the most carnal people, which were the Christians that were dwelling at Corinth, why did he never warn them of losing salvation then? I mean the Christians who dwelt at Corinth, were just about committing fornication on a daily basis. So why didn't Paul advise and warn the Christians at Corinth that they could lose salvation if they did not stop messing with sin?

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. - 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 (King James Bible)

No where in that passage did the Apostle Paul warn anyone of losing their salvation. That's just the way it is Starfield. There were definitely severe consequences. A ruined and diseased body to that man who committed that evil and wicked deed. But he was still saved.

Like I mentioned before, you can lose a lot of things. You can lose money, your reputation, your health, your testimony, your joy, your peace, your family, your close friends, and eve your life. You can also lose your heavenly rewards, crowns, and Millennial Inheritance.

But again, you cannot lose your salvation. That is the simple truth Starfield.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Well yeah Starfield, lost sinners who have never accepted Jesus Christ, those lost sinners will end up in the Lake of Fire. EVERYONE has done at least one or two, or three of those things which are listed in Galatians 5:19-21.


And yeah a Christian who has been truly born again, and yet has not grown in their faith, has not worked on their sanctification, but has become carnal and has served the lusts of the flesh, well that Christian is not going to live a victorious and joyful life. Nor will they have peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.


The Bible says that we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit whereby we are sealed unto the Day of Redemption (See Ephesians 4:30).


But again Starfield, you are avoiding the simple truth. A true Born again believer is sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. A true Born again Believer is Baptized into the Body of Christ. And he is bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. Therefore Starfield, a True Born again Believer cannot become detached from THE Body of Christ. It is impossible, seeing that he is bone of His bone, and flesh of His flesh.


[SUP]28 [/SUP]So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. -Ephesians 5:28-23 (King James Bible)

The doctrine of Total Depravity is never an excuse for sin in the life of any believer. The bible says that it is the unregenerate's heart that is desperately wicked. The believer's heart, however, is no longer desperately wicked because of the transforming work of the Holy Spirit at regeneration, they are no longer slaves to sin (Rom 6:6), and they are no longer living like the children of wrath, rather have forsaken the old life and are living out the new life of righteousness in Christ Jesus. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor 5:17).

God has provided us with everything that pertains to life and godliness; we have His sufficient grace and the empowerment of the indwelling Holy Spirit to live a life of godliness in this world. We shouldn't depreciate the power of God.

I understand where you are coming from though Starfield, I know that the doctrine of Total Depravity is not an excuse for sin in the life of the believer. I hear you on that. But you have to remember that even though a Christian has been regenerated, that Christian is responsible for putting down the flesh. After all, he still has the old man to deal with. It would be nice if once we got saved, we no longer desired to sin anymore, we no longer thought wicked thoughts and so forth, but if we are honest with ourselves, then we all know that we still struggle at times with the flesh. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life. If any man says that they have not sinned, then they make God out to be a liar, and God's word is not in that man.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[SUP]8[/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10[/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:7-10 (King James Bible)

It is the free grace/licentious position that states that salvation and discipleship are separate from each other. However, salvation is never separated from discipleship. Those who are saved surrender their lives to God in obedience and thus are disciples of Christ whereas those who do not surrender their lives to God are not saved thus aren't disciples of Christ. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).The author of Hebrews stated that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to the obedient…and please don’t tell me that this does not apply to church-age believers.

Starfield, like I said before, Every Christian should become a disciple of Jesus Christ. But many Christians of today probably are not true disciples of the Lord. They are truly saved, but have gottten caught up with the world, the lukewarm churches like Joel Osteen ("Your Best Life Now"), Rick Warren, and even some of the Charismatic Movement churches. Plus, you have the prosperity gospel which totally is contrary to the following Scripture:


[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. - Matthew 16:24 (King James Bible)


[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. - Mark 8:34 (King James Bible)



[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. - Luke 9:23 (King James Bible)



Truth be told though Starfield, there are true Born again Believers in some of the Joel Osteen and Rick Warren type churches, where it is all about prosperity, and happiness. And because those true Christians are under that kind of false teaching, they are led astray. How many Christians do you know Starfield, that are truly denying themselves on a daily basis? It can be done by the way.


How many Christians read their Bible on a Regular basis?
How many Christians do you know of that are reading the Right Bible?


See what I mean. Right now we are living in the Laodicean Lukewarm part of the Church Age, where many Christians are no longer enduring sound doctrine. But would rather listen ot a Joel Osteen, or a Fred Price, or a Creflo Dollar, or a TD Jakes, or a Kenneth Copeland.


A lot of Christians don't want to hear real Bible preaching anymore.


The Bible prophesied that this time would come and it is already here. As sad and vexing as it is to see all the false teachings out there (Charismania movement, Sacred Name & Hebrew Roots Movement, Purpose Driven New Age, Ecumenical programs, Contemplative prayer, The "Christian" contemporary Music Movement, Prospeirty gospel, (i.e. TBN Paul and Jan Crouch), etc. We have to remember that we are commanded to fight the good fight of faith. To prove all things and to hold fast that which is good. And also to continue in the things we have learned of and have been assured of. And to hold fast to sound words and to speak those things which become sound doctrine.


And if we could commit a sin that would cause us to lose our salvation, then we would have lost our salvation a long, long, long time ago Starfield.


We are to remain bold and strong for the truth in the midst of this great apostasy and falling away.


Having said that, The bottom line is that true Born again believers have Eternal Security. Nothing can cause us to lose our salvation or be un-born again. Once a person accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, that person is forever saved.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

ChosenbyHim, that passage is clear; no holiness/heart purity = no heaven. That’s the overall message of the scripture and even Jesus spoke of it in the beatitudes. Now are you saying we won’t be able to boast in heaven if we have faith but live a life of disobedience while on earth? Is that what the scripture say, ChosenbyHim? Paul said he exercise himself to have a conscience void of offense (heart purity) toward God and men yet he didn’t glory except in the cross of Christ. Now isn’t that the testimony of a true believer? If an individual thinks they can boast of their “holiness” in heaven then such individual does not have genuine salvation to begin with. When there is unfeigned love for God there won't be boasting in self. Faith works otherwise it's not different from the devils' (James 2:19). The bible teaches of obedient faith.

That is not what the passage is teaching Starfield. It is a reference to a person's testimony. Notice it said in that same verse "follow peace with all men." That gives us a hint what the context is about.


Our own holy living or self rightoues acts will not get us into Heaven. It is the Blood of Jesus Christ which cleanseth us from all sin and it is the Holiness and Rightouesness of the Lord Jesus Christ that gets us into Heaven.


One of the problems with teaching that a Christian can lose their salvation is the tiere system. Or a Rank system. If a Christian can lose his salvation, then how can he keep it? By doing good works? And let's just say if he could lose it, then how would he get it back?


Does a Christian stay saved by doing good works? If he does, then couldn't that Christian boast that he has done a lot of good works? Consider this Starfield, let's say you have done more god works than I have, let me ask you , would that make you more saved than I am? Or would that make your salvation better than my salvation?


See the point I am trying to make? If Christians could lose their salvation, then that means they would have to work hard at keeping their salvation. It would be up to them to keep their salvation. Therefore, those Christians who have done more good works than the others would boast about that they are more saved than the other Christians because they have not done enough good works to get them saved. And that's exactly what it would be. Christians would be on a rank system. You would have different classes of Christians. You would have the really saved Christians on one side, and then you would have the less saved Christians on the other because they haven't been able to walk more sanctified in their spiritual lives.

And don't omit verse 10.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are saved by grace through faith to do good works.

I agree with you on quoting Scripture in context, thanks for pointing that out Starfied. I will quote even more of the passage here:


[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10[/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:7-13 (King James Bible)

No, that's stretching it. The verse is self-explanatory - one won’t enter heaven without holiness.

No it's not Starfield. Moses made it into Heaven. David did as well. And so did Solomon. Let me ask you Starfield, were David, Solomon and Moses completely holy in their conduct while on the earth? Did they ever come short of the glory and fall into sin?


One won't enter into Heaven without Jesus Christ's imputed righteousness. We must have the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ. And when a person get's saved, the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed onto that person, and that person's sins are imputed onto Jesus Christ. That is how Imputation works.

ChosenbyHim, should we now throw Jesus’ teachings out the window since, according to you, they are inapplicable to this dispensation?

Starfield when did I ever suggest that?


We are to consent to the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ (See 1 Timothy 6:3).


You just have to keep in mind who specifically is being addressed in the Gospels. Because remember, doctrinally, they were still in the Old Testament, under the Mosaic Law. It was not until the Death of Jesus Christ on the Cross, that the New Testament was ushered in.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. - Hebrews 9:15-18 (King James Bible)

Is Paul now contradicting himself if we go by your interpretation of 1 Cor 5:1-13? That Paul said the incestuous person was still saved but then in the next chapter (1 Cor 6:9-10) he said fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God? You have to compare scripture with scripture and look at the immediate context of a verse, ChosenbyHim. Paul was saying they should excommunicate the man from their midst in a way that would lead to reformation of his conduct thereby saving his spirit, in essence discipline the man. Look at verse 11 and 13: "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person". Paul wasn’t insinuating that the incestuous person will get to heaven IN his sins but lose rewards. To say otherwise is sacrilege!

No Starfield, the Scripture teaches exactly what it says. That man was still saved. YET his body and flesh on this earth was delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. And yes, we are not to fellowship with anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet is a fornicator. or any of those other things listed in 1 Cor. 6. Do you know what Paul was referring to Starfield, when he said that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Let me give you two Scriptures that will help you in answering this question:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. - Acts 14:22 (King James Bible)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. - Romans 14:16-19 (King James Bible)


If a Christian keeps failing the test here on this earth, and gets carnal, and becomes lukewarm. Well then he won't have much fellowship with his Heavenly Father while down on this earth. And he won't have peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. He will lose the joy of his salvation.

But he will not lose his salvation. It is not his to lose.

ChosenbyHim, it appears you have great zeal for the scripture but unfortunately it’s a misdirected one, you don’t rightly divide the word of truth as you often tell people to do. You really need to re-examine the ramification of this unconditional eternal security doctrine, how it blasphemes the glorious work of Christ - that one can profess Christ, live in disobedience to Him, and still enter heaven. If that's the case then Christ died in vain, He didn’t die to purify himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works, He died to give us leeway to sin the more and still enter heaven, thus grace is a license to sin. This doctrine mocks God.

Starfield, you yet still do not understand the Biblical Doctrine of Eternal Security. I told you this already. We Bible believers such as Al Lacy, Peter Ruckman, Bryan Denlinger, Doug Stauffer, Lester Roloff, Richard Sowell, and myself who believe in the Eternal Secuirty of the Born again believer DO NOT encourage people to be disobedient. That is utter deception to suggest such a thing Starfield. We do not give Christians a license to sin. We warn the Christian and born again believer that if he sins, he will be punished. We warn that God will chasten him if he continues to disobey Him. And no Starfield, the Doctrine of Eternal Security does not blaspheme the work of Christ. And it does not mock God.


How do you perceive that it supposedly or somehow mocks God?


It does not. When a person gets saved, he gets baptized into the Body of Christ and he becomes a member in particular of the Body of Christ.
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13 (King James Bible)


[SUP]24 [/SUP]For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. - 1 Corinthians 12:24-27 (King James Bible)



If a Christian can lose his salvation, then get it back, then lose it again, and then get it back. What is that saying about Christ's Body? I mean does one of His limbs or toes get amputated and then come back?


That's exactly what people are teaching, when they say a Christian can lose their salvation. But here is something else which is important to know though Starfield.


My Salvation is not mine to lose. And neither is your salvation yours to lose.


We are bought with a price. Our life is not our own. We are God's purchased possession. He purchased us at a high price. He bought us with His blood. God did the work. We simply repented, trusted and believed.


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. - Acts 20:28 (King James Bible)



[SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: - Ephesians 1:10-17 (king James Bible)


Verse 10 is an excellent verse on the Rapture by the way!




In this Dispensation, a true Born again believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit:


[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:29-30 (King James Bible)

And again, we are also members of the Body of Christ:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. - Ephesians 5:30 (King James Bible)


Therefore we cannot lose our salvation. That is a basic Biblical truth. It is a truth in Scripture. Salvation is a free gift from God. And our works play no part in us getting saved and they surely do not play any part in us staying saved.

We should do good works after we get saved. After all, we have the Judgment Seat of Christ to look forward to. And we should want to earn as many rewards for our Lord Jesus Christ as we possibly can.

But to teach that our good works is what keeps us saved is not Scriptural. At least not for the Church Age. It is the Holy Spirit that seals us who keeps us saved. And it is the power of God which keeps us saved.

 

[svedbygrace]

Denial of God's Faithfulness !

To deny Eternal Security is a flat out denial that God will stablish Believers in the Truth ! Its a denial of God's Faithfulness ! 2 Thess 3:3

But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

The word stablish is the greek word sterizo and means:

) to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
2) to strengthen, make firm
3) to render constant, confirm, one's mind

First lets establish whom Paul is referring to that God will stablish ! 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul is writing to those who have been brought to the belief of the Truth by means of the Spirit's sanctification and God's Choice of them !

So Paul is writing to them, that the Lord SHALL make you stable ! What does that mean, to be made stable ? Our English word stable means:

steadfast; not wavering or changeable, as in character or purpose; dependable.


Now back to 2 Thess 3:3, also concerning the PROMISE that the Lord shall stablish them, the word stablish is in the future tense which means the certainty of this occurring in the future. So that eliminates the possibility of them becoming unstable or changing from their steadfastness in the future.

Now this Paul says is because of God's Faithfulness, not theirs. So God's faithfulness is at stake if they should loose their steadfastness in the Lord..And those of you who say its possible, you are speaking against the Lord and His Faithfulness !