Trying to understand
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The covenant is for 7 years,and it did not happen in the first century.
The Bible says that God is going to restore the kingdom to the Jews after they have borne their shame,and gather the whole house of Israel to Israel,and leave none of them in the nations anymore,and then the heathen shall know that they went in to captivity for their sins against God,but He was always on their side,and Israel will be the only operating nation,and government,and no Gentile government.
God will make a full end of all Gentile governments,but will not make a full end of Israel,but will not leave them wholly unpunished.
God said He is going to gather all nations together against Jerusalem to battle,and then He shall go forth and fight against those nations as He fought in the day of battle,and when He comes back all the saints are with Him.
In that day the LORD shall be King over all the earth,and there shall be one LORD,and His name one.
All the people that are left of the nations that fought against Jerusalem have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD.
The Bible says Israel is blinded in part,they acknowledge the Old Testament for the most part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved,kingdom on earth restored to Israel.
The 7 years period is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on earth,and brings Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and none of them will be left in the Gentiles nations,and the Jews,and the Gentiles,will be separate.
The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians,and the Jews will rebuild their temple with no hassle from the Palestinians.
The Gentile nations will come together,and say Peace and safety,as they try to establish peace on earth,and will rule by the ten horn,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,and a unified religious system based on the new age movement interpretation of the Bible that God warns us about,spiritual evolution through nature,and will operate for three and one half years.
The man of sin will step in to the Jews temple,and claim to be God,and their messiah,and will convince the world that he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,evolved,and will share this power with all who follow him,and his kingdom will be of the occult,nature worship,witchcraft,spiritual evolution through nature,and does not acknowledge any God,but in his estate he shall honor the God of forces,or the power of nature as his higher power.
When those that do not love God follow him,and take the mark of the beast,then repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to the Gentiles,and the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,which the mark has to do with technology,and will keep track of all who follow him as a way to stop crime,find lost people,with all information about them,including financial records,for no person can buy or sell without the mark,and when scanned a picture of them will come up on computer,with all their information.
God will then turn Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah by way of 2 witnesses,which the man of sin,the beast,will rule for three and one half years.
Then the world will go against Jerusalem,the Jews,and God will come back with all His saints that were caught up beforehand,and defeat the world,and save Israel.
The 7 years has not happened yet,for when the 70th week occurs then Israel is in the truth,for 70 weeks(each day a year) is determined upon Israel to be in the truth,but we see they are not in the truth as a nation,and they are blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,which salvation is still available to the Gentiles,although there are Messianic Jews,which God said He always has a remnant that follow Him.
They did not accept Jesus as a nation when Jesus was on earth,they were scattered off their land by the Roman Empire,so they could not accept Jesus as a nation then,and when Israel was a nation again in 1948 they did not recognize Jesus as a nation,and they do not to this day,so the 70th week,7 years is in the future.
The first attack on Jerusalem in the first century by the Roman Empire,because they rejected Jesus,which He said their house is left unto them desolate until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and God allowed it to happen.
The second attack on Jerusalem in the future by the world,because they accepted Christ,and say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and when the world attacks Jerusalem God does not allow it,but defeats them.
There are two examples given by the Lord Himself in the book of Luke 17:26-30
“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”
In these two examples you have two different scenario, one goes through the judgement protected by the Lord and the other was aken out of the judgement, let's look at them, Noah first and Lot second.
Genesis 6:5-8, 7:6-10, 8:15-21 “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.....
7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.8 Of clean animals, and of animals that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground,9 two and two, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah.10 And after seven days the waters of the flood came upon the earth.......
8:15 Then God spoke to Noah, saying,16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you.17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.”18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him.19 Every animal, every creeping thing, every bird, and whatever creeps on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.”
We see that the Lord God call Noah and his family into the Ark and after the flood was over and the land was dry the Lord God called him and his family out of the Ark and Noah responded by manking an offering to the Lord God.
Now let's look at Lot and his family, Genesis 19:12-13, 15-17, 21-26
“Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place!13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.....
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that he said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed.....
21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken.22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”
Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”
Notice with Noah the rain came when they were in the Ark as they were preserved through this judgement, Genesis 7:10, now Lot was out of Sodom and Gomorrah and in the city of Zoar before the Lord rained brimestone and fire on those cities. So we have one family being preserved through the judgement and the other was taken out of the city, not only were they taken, they were snatched out of the city, Genesis 19:16 the angels took them by the hand and "took hold" them by the hand and took them out of the city.
It seems that the Jews will be preserved during the tribulation or judgement of the world and the Church or family of the Lord God will be taken out of the judgement. This is one theory about the tribulation judgement on the world.
What if the 'tribulation' was both past and future?
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. They rejected Him, and suffered tribulation for it.
God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is currently rejecting Him. And the world will suffer tribulation for it.
Could that common denominator be why, or maybe how, in the end, God repatriates the tribes into grace?
God's word is eternal, it echos thru time. One fulfillment does not render it moot.
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. They rejected Him, and suffered tribulation for it.
God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is currently rejecting Him. And the world will suffer tribulation for it.
Could that common denominator be why, or maybe how, in the end, God repatriates the tribes into grace?
God's word is eternal, it echos thru time. One fulfillment does not render it moot.
O
OtherWay210
Guest
FlyingDove , i wanted to address some of the verses you posted. I think there is a real problem when people do not understand what the Wrath of God pertains to, and how a believer escapes it . We escape by being forewarned of the signs to watch for, therefor they dont over take us in deception . One Sign Jesus gave , is Anti Christ . If we think rapture is going to save us from the Wrath of God, that is a Not bible .. Jesus didnt have time to waste bringing us His teachings about it ...
Jesus Christ returns with people who have already died 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 -end . The passage does not say they were taken before the tribulation. Repeating to oneself over an over again a lie , does Not magically make it true .
If you hear a lie enough It only convinces you to accept the lie .Its better for believers, to hear the Truth as Jesus taught it . Nothing added, and nothing taken .
Rapture is NOT in Zechariah.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Zechariah 14 is about the Lords Day . Same day throughout the Bible .
But Remember Jesus's teachings in the gospels, we know the Bible says Jesus appears After the Tribulation .
.The prophecy about the return did not change from the OT to the NT.
So The Tribulation is taught in Zechariah 14 too.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. ""
The residue, explains not many escape Satans lies. This is why in Revelation 20,
Those who took the mark of the beast ( a metaphor, for apostasy ), are called the dead. They the whore, no longer have eternal life at that time . They are mortal . They awake to everlasting shame and contempt, until the end of the Lords Day when their fate is Judged by God. 1 Cor 15:50 Paul explains, the mortal, must put on immortality . When the Lords Day ends, the eternity beings, and only those with eternal life, will be there.
If they have a mortal soul, they they did not listen to Jesus.
To understand the houses rifled and women ravished,( Zechariah 14:2 ) and the city going into captivity ; you have to know what Jesus said about this Chapter. When Jesus mentioned Daniels prophecy, is was with the background of the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar .. Who was a type for Satan. Who the three realities did Not worship.
And they were put into fire, but they were Not burnt. The Word of God protected them. The True Christ.
They were Not raptured.
Mathew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Christ's warning was to Watch for His signs he gave. No one is given the exact moment The True Christ returns. So He said Watch . We Need Jesus over our lives , His words, or risk the destroyer entering in . Jesus says in these chapters, wait on the Lord... Not say in your heart the Lord delays His coming. Because there is a fake Lord that comes before Harvest time .
If you inject mud into the bible, it muddies the water for people trying to seek God .
than thats just right for Satan.
Satan is the thief : John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Christ speaking here :
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Christ returns, and gathers the Elect .Where do they gather to ; reading that passage is After the Tribulation ?
Revelation tells us where Jesus set up .
( Revelation 11:15 . happens After the two witnesses are killed, and everyone cheers in the streets thinking they've done a wonderful work for God. Most of the worlds believers, the Bible warns will apostatize after mistakenly worship the Fake bridegroom ) .
Why do you think they died ? These verses are not open for interpretation. Because the message is consistent from OT to NT.
Ill try to share scriptures that explain the state of the world, just prior to The Lords Day .
Jesus is expecting His virgin bride when he arrives . Figuratively speaking .
So Spiritually its bad if Christians worship Satan .
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Without The oil the lamp goes out . No Truth to light the way . Paul said, because they loved not the Truth that they might be saved .But had pleasure in unrighteousness; they are dammed .2 Thess 2 kjv.
What are some reasons they don't have oil?
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Today rapture teaches peace and safety .But its really Christ who gives us peace and safety its God who protects.
Not rapture .
Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
They obeyed God, they weren't burnt .
Paul warned about Satan's subtly :
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Paul just repeated Christ's open teachings there. :
Christ says : Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
In revelation the women that rides, Satan's system, is called the whore.
If you're called a whore, you've been unfaithful . Christ even says shes found with Child and nursing the child .
But Its not His baby .
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
She says this, because shes worshiping a false Christ. There is a real problem in the churches today.
Jesus opens with addressing the Churches in Revelation .Only two passed His test. The rest received dire warnings.
Sardis has a name that Lives, but Jesus informed them He sees they are dead. So Christ in Matthew says, many cause this problem, because they say they are Christian " I am Christ, but shall deceive many " ...
Rapture, or whatever the case, preps Christians for a fall .Its called the Tribulation of Antichrist
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Luke 23:29 For there are days coming when the cry will be, 'Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never have borne and the breasts that never have suckled!'
30 Then will people say to the mountains, 'Fall on us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'
31 For if this is what they do when the wood is green, what will they do when the wood is dry?"
Christ is The Tree of Life, And they killed Him .
What do you think Satan will do spiritually, to those who have no oil in their lamps ?
Dry trees are easily burnt .
Blessed are the barren ; would be the Elect . Who wont be in a bed with Satan. They know the seasons to watch, they watch and wait on the Real bridegroom .They know how not to get caught up in a flood of lies.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The only way to escape this tribulation ; and the Wrath to come , is Not sleeping with Satan to begin with .
In a spiritual sense, she is called a whore in Revelation for a reason .
And its not like Satan plays false Messiah because he likes Christians . Satan hates the whore .
His world control, does everything it can do deceive Christians . He makes war with people in that way .
When the Tribulation actually beings, with signs and miracles, he deceives the world.
Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Lies issue from the mouth, pretending to be Christ, and worshiping him ; that burns people.
It especially burns believers who hold dear mans teachings, rather than Jesus's teachings.
It burns their fine linen up.
God being The Consuming Fire, who can stand in His presence, ashamed and naked ?
Christ appears three and a half days after the two witnesses are killed, ( Revelation 11 )
People see what they did. Believers awake to see they are dead .Satan took advantage of staving sheep .
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Only the barren will stand .
Christ has been away a long time. Imagine a husband is away on a trip ,
and returns to find His bride to be with a child and nursing it along .
Whats do you think that means ?
Christ is returning with a army for a reason .. Because Satan will be standing in Jerusalem claiming to be God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Since this chapter is about Christ return , the Lords Day. Then "the women ravished; "
is referring to the whore. The false groom comes before Christ. That is what the word Anti means in Greek.
The Greek for Anti: means "Instead of ". Because that is the order of the signs Jesus gave in the gospels and in Revelation to Watch for . Because, you know not the hour, aka Moment His actual return takes place, Unless you watched for the Signs He taught .
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
So the flood you read comes from the Mouth of the Serpent . And in Genesis, angels were taking wives of the Daughters of Adam, to polluted the seed line of Christ . Which Jude teaches are reserved for the lake of fire. But first God is going to use them to smite the earth .
That is who they were giving and taking in marriage to . Same scenario is warned about in Revelation 12 for the tribulation .
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed ( disguised ) into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Remember how the Dragon the world worships presents himself in Revelation ( the second beast ? )
He looks like a lamb.
So remember Daniels prophecy Jesus quoted in Matthew 24. because of that, the daily oblation ceases .
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You have to update the language to reflect what Christ taught about this in Mark 13 Matthew 24 , when He quoted this verse
Christ is a Christians sacrifice . And we live in Christ everyday .
If its said to stop, then it means apostasy .. Satan has stepped in as the lamb and replaced Christ without the vast majority of believers realizing.
Due in part because of false teachings of people claiming to be Christian, but do more harm then good in relation to the Tribulation .
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Satan will defiantly be leaven at that time . And the leaven today of Rapture has permeated just about the entire body of believers
Revelation is describing in symbolic language when the star Satan hits the water, a 3rd of the population dies
Well a third of the worlds population today, identify as Christian . So spiritually, if they worship Antichrist, they cant be said to live .
The only way to overcome the lies of Satan, is to be solid on the foundation of The Word of God.
Not floating above it ..
Remember the OT .Its the Passover Lamb, that prevented the Destoryer, from entering into the home.
Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
Isaiah (( there is no rapture in the passages you quoted. ))Its bad enough when you insert rapture doctrine, into the passage, its worse when they dont even understand what the false teachings they adhere to teach.
The rapture is about a unexpected return, before the Tribulation. How are you getting that out of Isaiah ?
Isaiah
26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The passage is talking about After the tribulation is over. Christ returns with armies After the trib.
The slain of Satan tribulation those who apostatize aka the whore ; that the beast will burn with fire of lies and deception which is already at work today..
You know what this verse reminds me of ? Take a guess
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
A believer is no longer saved, if they fall for Satans lies. 1 Cor 15: if the entire chapter is read, explains Jesus returns only at the Last Trump. There are only 7 Christ ever taught in Revelation .. Satan shows up at the 6th, Christ at the Last. which is 7th. No space for a rapture teaching there . Revelation 11:15.
Jacob Is Israel , Israel, which became the Chrsitians are the ones the serpent attacks Revelation 12.
, Christ returns from heaven, and we are to wait ...But the passage dose not say anything about rapture.
The wrath is poured out on the seat of the beast, on Satan and those who worship Him This is the whore in Revelation
The only way to escape wrath, is to watch for Satans tribulation as it developed and is ultimately himself kicked from heaven to earth. We escape by being warned before hand .If we are here during the Trib.
Jesus Christ returns with people who have already died 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 -end . The passage does not say they were taken before the tribulation. Repeating to oneself over an over again a lie , does Not magically make it true .
If you hear a lie enough It only convinces you to accept the lie .Its better for believers, to hear the Truth as Jesus taught it . Nothing added, and nothing taken .
Rapture is NOT in Zechariah.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Zechariah 14 is about the Lords Day . Same day throughout the Bible .
But Remember Jesus's teachings in the gospels, we know the Bible says Jesus appears After the Tribulation .
.The prophecy about the return did not change from the OT to the NT.
So The Tribulation is taught in Zechariah 14 too.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. ""
The residue, explains not many escape Satans lies. This is why in Revelation 20,
Those who took the mark of the beast ( a metaphor, for apostasy ), are called the dead. They the whore, no longer have eternal life at that time . They are mortal . They awake to everlasting shame and contempt, until the end of the Lords Day when their fate is Judged by God. 1 Cor 15:50 Paul explains, the mortal, must put on immortality . When the Lords Day ends, the eternity beings, and only those with eternal life, will be there.
If they have a mortal soul, they they did not listen to Jesus.
To understand the houses rifled and women ravished,( Zechariah 14:2 ) and the city going into captivity ; you have to know what Jesus said about this Chapter. When Jesus mentioned Daniels prophecy, is was with the background of the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar .. Who was a type for Satan. Who the three realities did Not worship.
And they were put into fire, but they were Not burnt. The Word of God protected them. The True Christ.
They were Not raptured.
Mathew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Christ's warning was to Watch for His signs he gave. No one is given the exact moment The True Christ returns. So He said Watch . We Need Jesus over our lives , His words, or risk the destroyer entering in . Jesus says in these chapters, wait on the Lord... Not say in your heart the Lord delays His coming. Because there is a fake Lord that comes before Harvest time .
If you inject mud into the bible, it muddies the water for people trying to seek God .
than thats just right for Satan.
Satan is the thief : John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Christ speaking here :
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Christ returns, and gathers the Elect .Where do they gather to ; reading that passage is After the Tribulation ?
Revelation tells us where Jesus set up .
( Revelation 11:15 . happens After the two witnesses are killed, and everyone cheers in the streets thinking they've done a wonderful work for God. Most of the worlds believers, the Bible warns will apostatize after mistakenly worship the Fake bridegroom ) .
Why do you think they died ? These verses are not open for interpretation. Because the message is consistent from OT to NT.
Ill try to share scriptures that explain the state of the world, just prior to The Lords Day .
Jesus is expecting His virgin bride when he arrives . Figuratively speaking .
So Spiritually its bad if Christians worship Satan .
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Without The oil the lamp goes out . No Truth to light the way . Paul said, because they loved not the Truth that they might be saved .But had pleasure in unrighteousness; they are dammed .2 Thess 2 kjv.
What are some reasons they don't have oil?
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Today rapture teaches peace and safety .But its really Christ who gives us peace and safety its God who protects.
Not rapture .
Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
They obeyed God, they weren't burnt .
Paul warned about Satan's subtly :
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Paul just repeated Christ's open teachings there. :
Christ says : Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
In revelation the women that rides, Satan's system, is called the whore.
If you're called a whore, you've been unfaithful . Christ even says shes found with Child and nursing the child .
But Its not His baby .
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
She says this, because shes worshiping a false Christ. There is a real problem in the churches today.
Jesus opens with addressing the Churches in Revelation .Only two passed His test. The rest received dire warnings.
Sardis has a name that Lives, but Jesus informed them He sees they are dead. So Christ in Matthew says, many cause this problem, because they say they are Christian " I am Christ, but shall deceive many " ...
Rapture, or whatever the case, preps Christians for a fall .Its called the Tribulation of Antichrist
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Luke 23:29 For there are days coming when the cry will be, 'Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never have borne and the breasts that never have suckled!'
30 Then will people say to the mountains, 'Fall on us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'
31 For if this is what they do when the wood is green, what will they do when the wood is dry?"
Christ is The Tree of Life, And they killed Him .
What do you think Satan will do spiritually, to those who have no oil in their lamps ?
Dry trees are easily burnt .
Blessed are the barren ; would be the Elect . Who wont be in a bed with Satan. They know the seasons to watch, they watch and wait on the Real bridegroom .They know how not to get caught up in a flood of lies.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The only way to escape this tribulation ; and the Wrath to come , is Not sleeping with Satan to begin with .
In a spiritual sense, she is called a whore in Revelation for a reason .
And its not like Satan plays false Messiah because he likes Christians . Satan hates the whore .
His world control, does everything it can do deceive Christians . He makes war with people in that way .
When the Tribulation actually beings, with signs and miracles, he deceives the world.
Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Lies issue from the mouth, pretending to be Christ, and worshiping him ; that burns people.
It especially burns believers who hold dear mans teachings, rather than Jesus's teachings.
It burns their fine linen up.
God being The Consuming Fire, who can stand in His presence, ashamed and naked ?
Christ appears three and a half days after the two witnesses are killed, ( Revelation 11 )
People see what they did. Believers awake to see they are dead .Satan took advantage of staving sheep .
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Only the barren will stand .
Christ has been away a long time. Imagine a husband is away on a trip ,
and returns to find His bride to be with a child and nursing it along .
Whats do you think that means ?
Christ is returning with a army for a reason .. Because Satan will be standing in Jerusalem claiming to be God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Since this chapter is about Christ return , the Lords Day. Then "the women ravished; "
is referring to the whore. The false groom comes before Christ. That is what the word Anti means in Greek.
The Greek for Anti: means "Instead of ". Because that is the order of the signs Jesus gave in the gospels and in Revelation to Watch for . Because, you know not the hour, aka Moment His actual return takes place, Unless you watched for the Signs He taught .
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
So the flood you read comes from the Mouth of the Serpent . And in Genesis, angels were taking wives of the Daughters of Adam, to polluted the seed line of Christ . Which Jude teaches are reserved for the lake of fire. But first God is going to use them to smite the earth .
That is who they were giving and taking in marriage to . Same scenario is warned about in Revelation 12 for the tribulation .
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed ( disguised ) into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Remember how the Dragon the world worships presents himself in Revelation ( the second beast ? )
He looks like a lamb.
So remember Daniels prophecy Jesus quoted in Matthew 24. because of that, the daily oblation ceases .
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You have to update the language to reflect what Christ taught about this in Mark 13 Matthew 24 , when He quoted this verse
Christ is a Christians sacrifice . And we live in Christ everyday .
If its said to stop, then it means apostasy .. Satan has stepped in as the lamb and replaced Christ without the vast majority of believers realizing.
Due in part because of false teachings of people claiming to be Christian, but do more harm then good in relation to the Tribulation .
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Satan will defiantly be leaven at that time . And the leaven today of Rapture has permeated just about the entire body of believers
Revelation is describing in symbolic language when the star Satan hits the water, a 3rd of the population dies
Well a third of the worlds population today, identify as Christian . So spiritually, if they worship Antichrist, they cant be said to live .
The only way to overcome the lies of Satan, is to be solid on the foundation of The Word of God.
Not floating above it ..
Remember the OT .Its the Passover Lamb, that prevented the Destoryer, from entering into the home.
Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
Isaiah (( there is no rapture in the passages you quoted. ))Its bad enough when you insert rapture doctrine, into the passage, its worse when they dont even understand what the false teachings they adhere to teach.
The rapture is about a unexpected return, before the Tribulation. How are you getting that out of Isaiah ?
Isaiah
26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The passage is talking about After the tribulation is over. Christ returns with armies After the trib.
The slain of Satan tribulation those who apostatize aka the whore ; that the beast will burn with fire of lies and deception which is already at work today..
You know what this verse reminds me of ? Take a guess
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
A believer is no longer saved, if they fall for Satans lies. 1 Cor 15: if the entire chapter is read, explains Jesus returns only at the Last Trump. There are only 7 Christ ever taught in Revelation .. Satan shows up at the 6th, Christ at the Last. which is 7th. No space for a rapture teaching there . Revelation 11:15.
Jacob Is Israel , Israel, which became the Chrsitians are the ones the serpent attacks Revelation 12.
, Christ returns from heaven, and we are to wait ...But the passage dose not say anything about rapture.
The wrath is poured out on the seat of the beast, on Satan and those who worship Him This is the whore in Revelation
The only way to escape wrath, is to watch for Satans tribulation as it developed and is ultimately himself kicked from heaven to earth. We escape by being warned before hand .If we are here during the Trib.
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O
OtherWay210
Guest
I got a typing error there. that part that says Nebuchadnezzar .. Who was a type for Satan. Who the three Israelites ( not realities ) did Not worship. " It was with the background of the captivity God sent on Judah, and All Israel prior with the Ayssiran . . So the captivity coming is God sending Satan onto the world. A believer that remains faithful to the real Jesus, God is not going to pour Wrath on such a person ..
O
OtherWay210
Guest
TrustingGod4life
I want no part of Gods wrath
Neither do I. That is why i do things His way. And, its likely we wont be here when that happens.
However if we are, Jesus tells us what to expect before the fact, so its not a surprise like it will be to the rest of the world who will inure that wrath .
Im going to study what this means more in depth, and maybe post a study to clarify it. Because i think many assume stuff about what that Wrath means, and who gets it . And how that in actuality looks and plays out .
Anyway i gotta start my day have a good day . God is not angry at those those He loves.
I posted this earlier:
An important thing to remember about the end times.
The first period identified by Jesus is called birth-pangs. These include a series of troubling events prior to the start of the tribulation period, including false messiahs, wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes (Matthew 24:4-8, Revelation 6:1-8). Scriptures do not identify the length of time for this period, but I believe it has already started.
Jesus called the next period the tribulation. During this time great numbers of believers are persecuted, hated, and killed by the antichrist world government. More false messiahs arise. Many believers fall away from the faith and lawlessness increases (Matthew 24:9-14, Revelation 6:9-11).
Jesus described the third period as the great tribulation. He identified it by saying, “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29) and “then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will” (Matthew 24:21).
This period is also called the day of the Lord. It begins with very ominous events unlike anything that has ever happened before, including a great shaking of heaven and earth, the sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the stars fall from the sky, the powers of the heavens are shaken, there are earthquakes, every mountain and island is removed from its place, and the sky is rolled up like a scroll (Matthew 24:21-31, Revelation 6:12-17). It then continues with the rapture of believers and the outpouring of the wrath of God.
The Great Tribulation is yet to come.
In Matt. 24:21 Jesus speaks of a great tribulation. In Matt.24:8 Jesus talks about the "beginning of sorrows" and I believe that is what we are in right now. When this has all come to a culmination in other words "immediately" Matt. 24:29 after it then will come the great tribulation.
The first period identified by Jesus is called birth-pangs. These include a series of troubling events prior to the start of the tribulation period, including false messiahs, wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes (Matthew 24:4-8, Revelation 6:1-8). Scriptures do not identify the length of time for this period, but I believe it has already started.
Jesus called the next period the tribulation. During this time great numbers of believers are persecuted, hated, and killed by the antichrist world government. More false messiahs arise. Many believers fall away from the faith and lawlessness increases (Matthew 24:9-14, Revelation 6:9-11).
Jesus described the third period as the great tribulation. He identified it by saying, “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29) and “then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will” (Matthew 24:21).
This period is also called the day of the Lord. It begins with very ominous events unlike anything that has ever happened before, including a great shaking of heaven and earth, the sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the stars fall from the sky, the powers of the heavens are shaken, there are earthquakes, every mountain and island is removed from its place, and the sky is rolled up like a scroll (Matthew 24:21-31, Revelation 6:12-17). It then continues with the rapture of believers and the outpouring of the wrath of God.
The Great Tribulation is yet to come.
In Matt. 24:21 Jesus speaks of a great tribulation. In Matt.24:8 Jesus talks about the "beginning of sorrows" and I believe that is what we are in right now. When this has all come to a culmination in other words "immediately" Matt. 24:29 after it then will come the great tribulation.
Willie,
You seem to be fixated on the word 'SOON'. Soon from your perspective and soon from the perspective of an eternal God are
NOT necessarily the same.
2 Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV
Not necessarily fixated on a particular word..... more like puzzled at the incessant desire to move just about everything written in the Bible, directly into the year 2017. Even when Revelation mentions things "which must shortly come to pass", it is assumed John meant "which won't happen till 2017."
Are you just as willing for all those mentioned times to, instead, be the year 4043?
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Could be, Willie.
But I don't think God will wait that long. I believe we'd destroy ourselves before then.
As did all the people who have ever lived since the days Jesus walked this Earth. They all were sure it was THEIR generation who would be the last ones. We have just taken it to extremes. Probably because the hype sells so many books today.
The fact remains: Jesus Christ has not returned yet.
I'm convinced (I know you aren't) that the trib has not happened yet.
Time will tell.
There is an objective reality that Jesus will return at SOME POINT.
That point in time at which he returns has nothing to do with my opinion, or your opinion.
Our opinions may be right, and our opinions may be wrong.
Furthermore, our opinions are causally independent.
You're opinion has no causal ability to turn my opinion right or wrong, and my opinion has no causal ability to turn your opinion right or wrong.
Therefore, the fact that many generations BEFORE us were all wrong that Jesus was returning in THOSE times,
has absolutely no effect on whether or not the current generation is right about Jesus returning in THIS time.
The fact that previous generations were all wrong, has no logical power to make the current generation more wrong.
The current generation is either right or wrong, but the number of previous generations that guessed wrong has nothing to do with them.
There is no causal relationship between the guess of one guy, and the guess of another guy later.
The first guy has no power to make the next guy more wrong.
So, all those previous generations before us, who were wrong about the return of Christ... they were just wrong.
They have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the current generation is wrong.
I'm not trying to make a case that Jesus is coming tomorrow at 5:30 or something.
I'm just pointing out that all the previous generations being wrong really doesn't prove anything at all... not one way or the other.
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But, it has everything to do with the arrogant assurance that we, of all generations, are assured that we are the only ones who got it right.... in our own minds, that is.
If your point is that it should give us cause to reflect... then I'll go with that.
I think that's fine.
I just wouldn't say that it has any weight to prove the current generation is wrong... because it has no logical power to do that.