Two category's that must be kept separate JUSTIFICATION - SANCTIFICATION

[mailmandan]

The early church fathers like Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John the apostle. Then there's you.

Were the writings of the early church fathers inspired and infallible?

 

[mailmandan]

Then there's you.

So, I'm just a nobody who could not possibly understand Scripture? Do I need the early church fathers to interpret Scripture for me? Should I simply disregard the Holy Spirit? (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:11-13; 1 John 2:27)

 

[Nedsk]

Were the writings of the early church fathers inspired and infallible?

No but neither is the stuff your cashier turned pastor has told you. And it all comes back to interpretation and AGAIN I can listen to people trained by the apostles or I can listen to you. No offense but....

 

[Nedsk]

So, I'm just a nobody who could not possibly understand Scripture? Do I need the early church fathers to interpret Scripture for me? Should I simply disregard the Holy Spirit? (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:11-13; 1 John 2:27)

Again you're claiming I said things I didn't say. Try rewriting that first sentence because if you can't understand what I'm saying then I don't trust you to understand what Scripture says. You people don't even listen to yourselves let alone others.

 

[mailmandan]

No

Thank you.

 

[Nedsk]

So, I'm just a nobody who could not possibly understand Scripture? Do I need the early church fathers to interpret Scripture for me? Should I simply disregard the Holy Spirit? (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:11-13; 1 John 2:27)

You ask, "Should I simply disregard the Holy Spirit?" First this is ANOTHER example of you no listening but I'm supposed to listen to you? I'm going to make this very simple for you because you people get lost in your own heads very easily.

Let's use the discourse in John 6 for the example. You read it and the Holy Spirit leads you to believe Jesus is speaking metaphorically about eating his flesh and blood. So far so good? I read it and the holy Spirit leads me to believe Jesus is speaking literally. The question isn't ignoring the Holy Spirit the question is you need to show that your understanding is authoritative over mine. Cab you don't get yes or no? Nothing I'm.seennfrom you so far suggests you can.

 

[mailmandan]

Again you're claiming I said things I didn't say. Try rewriting that first sentence because if you can't understand what I'm saying then I don't trust you to understand what Scripture says. You people don't even listen to yourselves let alone others.

A bit of hyperbole perhaps but your message was clear that my understanding of Scripture is inferior to the early church fathers like Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John.

 

[Nedsk]

Thank you.

You're being duplicitous and I understand why because you can't show that you speak authoritatively about Scripture. I can believe you or people who were disciples of the apostles. Thus far your argument is the apostles taught errors and we need randos on the Internet to correct them. If you can't speak honestly there's no use engaging you

 

[Nedsk]

A bit of hyperbole perhaps but your message was clear that my understanding of Scripture is inferior to the early church fathers like Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John.

Now if you want me to believe you over him you better have a very compelling argument for my doing so. Thus far you've given me exactly nothing.

 

[mailmandan]

You ask, "Should I simply disregard the Holy Spirit?" First this is ANOTHER example of you no listening but I'm supposed to listen to you? I'm going to make this very simple for you because you people get lost in your own heads very easily.

Let's use the discourse in John 6 for the example. You read it and the Holy Spirit leads you to believe Jesus is speaking metaphorically about eating his flesh and blood. So far so good? I read it and the holy Spirit leads me to believe Jesus is speaking literally. The question isn't ignoring the Holy Spirit the question is you need to show that your understanding is authoritative over mine. Cab you don't get yes or no? Nothing I'm.seennfrom you so far suggests you can.

I already thoroughly covered John 6 but nothing that I or anyone else has to say contrary to what you already believe will satisfy you. Your beliefs are fixed. One thing is for sure. One of us is not hearing the Holy Spirit correctly on this matter.

 

[mailmandan]

Now if you want me to believe you over him you better have a very compelling argument for my doing so. Thus far you've given me exactly nothing.

There are no compelling arguments for a belief that is already fixed.

 

[Nedsk]

I already thoroughly covered John 6 but nothing that I or anyone else has to say contrary to what you already believe will satisfy you. Your beliefs are fixed. One thing is for sure. One of us is not hearing the Holy Spirit correctly on this matter.

Yours are fixed as well. I agree one of us is not hearing correctly, so show me evidence that you are. You people believe certain things and that's fine but people believe things that aren't true all the time. You assume you are best ng correctly but people like Jesus Paul and Ignatius disagree with you. Do again I can listen to them or you.

 

[GWH]

I don't need to read the rest of the NT a few times as Jesus said what he said as did Paul and neither was speaking in metaphors. It's always the same with you people, you having to tell us what Scripture "really" means but you do so with no evidence your understanding of Scripture is authoritative. I can listen to Jesus and Paul or I can listen to you. LMBO

Well, I like learning GW and every time I read the Bible more sinks in, which I share on the Systematic Bible Study and other threads for the benefit of anyone who appreciates a boost.

Because you are the first person I have met who believes Jesus was speaking literally in John 6:53-58, I am learning how to explain that understanding is obviously ridiculous per Scripture, but without any success so far.

In the SBS thread I posted this:

John 6:28-64. The people asked Jesus, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus replied, “The work of God is to believe in the one he has sent.” The people then asked Jesus what miraculous sign he would perform such that seeing it would prove he was the one God has sent who should be believed. They cited the miracle by Moses of manna from heaven as an example, to which Jesus stated that God gives the true bread from heaven, which is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. The people asked Jesus to give them this bread, and Jesus declared that he is the bread of life, and whoever believes in him will never go hungry or be thirsty, but he accused them of disbelief even a though they have seen him.

Then Jesus said that all the Father gives him and whoever comes to him he will never drive away, because he has come down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent him, and the Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and Jesus will resurrect them at the last day. The people grumbled upon hearing him claim to be the bread that came down from heaven, saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph and his mother whom we know?

Jesus reproved their grumbling and explained that he is the bread of life who dies for the life of the world, so whoever partakes of his body will live forever. Many of his disciples found this teaching too hard to accept, but Jesus said “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life, yet some of you do not believe.”

I also said this regarding:

John 4:1-19. The Pharisees heard that Jesus and his disciples were baptizing more people than John, so Jesus left Judea and headed for Galilee through Samaria. When he arrived at Jacob’s well in Sychar, a Samaritan woman was drawing water and Jesus asked her for a drink, which amazed the woman, prompting her to ask why he, being a Jew, would associate with her. [This disassociation began when Solomon’s kingdom was divided following his death, cf. 1Kings 12:16-19.]

Jesus answered by saying that if she knew who he was, she would have asked him for God’s gift of living water (cf. John 7:38). [God’s tree of life in Gen. 3:22 seems similar to His water of life that is mentioned in Isa. 55:1, Psa. 36:9 and Zech. 14:8, cf. Rev. 21:6, 22:1 & 17.] Then the woman asked how he would draw this water and whether he was greater than Jacob, to which Jesus replied that whoever drinks the water he gives would receive eternal life.

The woman asked for this water, but Jesus told her to fetch her husband first. When the woman said she had no husband, Jesus agreed but noted that she had divorced five husbands and was now living with a man with whom she was not married. When Jesus said this, the woman said that she could see Jesus was a prophet. [However, apparently she did not yet realize that Jesus was more than a prophet, cf. Matt. 11:9-19.]

John 4:20-26. The woman continued by observing that Samaritans worship on a mountain (presumably referring to Mt. Gerizim where they had built a temple, cf. Deut. 11:29 & 27:12, Josh. 8:30-34), whereas Jews claim worship of God must be done in Jerusalem. The altar on a ridge called Mt. Moriah (2Chron. 3:1, 2Sam. 24:18) and Zion (Psa. 132:13-14, 125:1-2) came to mean Jerusalem.

Jesus replied that the time has come when people everywhere will worship God as Father in spirit and in truth, because God is Spirit. The woman said that she knew Messiah (Christ) is coming and will explain everything, and Jesus declared that he is Messiah. John stated in 1John 5:6 that God’s Spirit is truth (cf. 1John 4:2&6), and in 1John 4:8&16 that God is love. Psalm 33:12-148 says that God dwells in heaven and looks down on His chosen people–on those whose hope is in His unfailing love.

Do you not understand that in John 4 the water that saves is NOT literal/physical, just like the body and blood in John 6?

 

[Nedsk]

There are no compelling arguments for a belief that is already fixed.

Like yours. It's amazing how you assume all the arguments you use against me don't also apply to you. Your basic claim is you've read Scripture and the Holy Spirit led you to believe X. You also assume it's absolutely true and I'm not arguing that I merely asking you to prove your authority to tell others they are wrong.

 

[Nedsk]

Well, I like learning GW and every time I read the Bible more sinks in, which I share on the Systematic Bible Study and other threads for the benefit of anyone who appreciates a boost.

Because you are the first person I have met who believes Jesus was speaking literally in John 6:53-58, I am learning how to explain that understanding is obviously ridiculous per Scripture, but without any success so far.

In the SBS thread I posted this:

John 6:28-64. The people asked Jesus, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus replied, “The work of God is to believe in the one he has sent.” The people then asked Jesus what miraculous sign he would perform such that seeing it would prove he was the one God has sent who should be believed. They cited the miracle by Moses of manna from heaven as an example, to which Jesus stated that God gives the true bread from heaven, which is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. The people asked Jesus to give them this bread, and Jesus declared that he is the bread of life, and whoever believes in him will never go hungry or be thirsty, but he accused them of disbelief even a though they have seen him.

Then Jesus said that all the Father gives him and whoever comes to him he will never drive away, because he has come down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent him, and the Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and Jesus will resurrect them at the last day. The people grumbled upon hearing him claim to be the bread that came down from heaven, saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph and his mother whom we know?

Jesus reproved their grumbling and explained that he is the bread of life who dies for the life of the world, so whoever partakes of his body will live forever. Many of his disciples found this teaching too hard to accept, but Jesus said “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life, yet some of you do not believe.”

I also said this regarding:

John 4:1-19. The Pharisees heard that Jesus and his disciples were baptizing more people than John, so Jesus left Judea and headed for Galilee through Samaria. When he arrived at Jacob’s well in Sychar, a Samaritan woman was drawing water and Jesus asked her for a drink, which amazed the woman, prompting her to ask why he, being a Jew, would associate with her. [This disassociation began when Solomon’s kingdom was divided following his death, cf. 1Kings 12:16-19.]

Jesus answered by saying that if she knew who he was, she would have asked him for God’s gift of living water (cf. John 7:38). [God’s tree of life in Gen. 3:22 seems similar to His water of life that is mentioned in Isa. 55:1, Psa. 36:9 and Zech. 14:8, cf. Rev. 21:6, 22:1 & 17.] Then the woman asked how he would draw this water and whether he was greater than Jacob, to which Jesus replied that whoever drinks the water he gives would receive eternal life.

The woman asked for this water, but Jesus told her to fetch her husband first. When the woman said she had no husband, Jesus agreed but noted that she had divorced five husbands and was now living with a man with whom she was not married. When Jesus said this, the woman said that she could see Jesus was a prophet. [However, apparently she did not yet realize that Jesus was more than a prophet, cf. Matt. 11:9-19.]

John 4:20-26. The woman continued by observing that Samaritans worship on a mountain (presumably referring to Mt. Gerizim where they had built a temple, cf. Deut. 11:29 & 27:12, Josh. 8:30-34), whereas Jews claim worship of God must be done in Jerusalem. The altar on a ridge called Mt. Moriah (2Chron. 3:1, 2Sam. 24:18) and Zion (Psa. 132:13-14, 125:1-2) came to mean Jerusalem.

Jesus replied that the time has come when people everywhere will worship God as Father in spirit and in truth, because God is Spirit. The woman said that she knew Messiah (Christ) is coming and will explain everything, and Jesus declared that he is Messiah. John stated in 1John 5:6 that God’s Spirit is truth (cf. 1John 4:2&6), and in 1John 4:8&16 that God is love. Psalm 33:12-148 says that God dwells in heaven and looks down on His chosen people–on those whose hope is in His unfailing love.

Do you not understand that in John 4 the water that saves is NOT literal/physical, just like the body and blood in John 6?

Jesus is clear what he's saying and Paul does the same.

 

[mailmandan]

Like yours. It's amazing how you assume all the arguments you use against me don't also apply to you. Your basic claim is you've read Scripture and the Holy Spirit led you to believe X. You also assume it's absolutely true and I'm not arguing that I merely asking you to prove your authority to tell others they are wrong.

Since I was not a direct disciple of John, apparently I have no authority according to you, so this conversation is just a waste of time.

 

[FlyingDove]

Jesus never says METAPHORICAL that's what your cashier turned pastor has told you. I don't listen to him anymore than I listen to you. You don't know what else to do but spit out what's been programmed into you do you?

I never claimed Jesus said METAPHORICAL. I said Jesus' Bread of Life Discourse is METAPHORICAL.

I gave examples: Jesus said, I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). He's not a literal door, vine or a loaf of bread.

I gave examples where Jesus defines the metaphor:

Jn 6:53 I am the Bread of Life; the one who comes to Me will never hunger, and the one who believes in Me will never thirst.
(NOTE: Anyone that, NEDDY METAPHOR > ""COMES TO HIM"" > ""WILL NEVER HUNGER"" & anyone that BELIEVES will NEVER THIRST)

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
(NOTE: Neddy, Jesus closes with FLESH CONVEYS NO BENEFIT! His words are SPIRIT & the SPIRIT)

Anyone that takes Jesus' imagery literally after He says the ""flesh profits nothing"" & ""His words are Spirit". They're not following Jesus words they're overruling them/HIM.

 

[Nedsk]

Since I was not a direct disciple of John, apparently I have no authority according to you, so this conversation is just a waste of time.

AGAIN you can't understand me but you understand Scripture? I NEVER said you have no authority I asked you to show evidence for your claimed authority. It's fascinating that you actually put yourself on par with problem who were literally disciples of the apostle john. You're so humble it's inspiring

 

[Nedsk]

I never claimed Jesus said METAPHORICAL. I said Jesus' Bread of Life Discourse is METAPHORICAL.

I gave examples: Jesus said, I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). He's not a literal door, vine or a loaf of bread.

I gave examples where Jesus defines the metaphor:

Jn 6:53 I am the Bread of Life; the one who comes to Me will never hunger, and the one who believes in Me will never thirst.
(NOTE: Anyone that, NEDDY METAPHOR > ""COMES TO HIM"" > ""WILL NEVER HUNGER"" & anyone that BELIEVES will NEVER THIRST)

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
(NOTE: Neddy, Jesus closes with FLESH CONVEYS NO BENEFIT! His words are SPIRIT & the SPIRIT)

Anyone that takes Jesus' imagery literally after He says the ""flesh profits nothing"" & ""His words are Spirit". They're not following Jesus words they're overruling them/HIM.

Jesus says but the opposite like Paul does.

 

[Nedsk]

Since I was not a direct disciple of John, apparently I have no authority according to you, so this conversation is just a waste of time.

What are your thoughts on physics? I could read Einstein but he's an idiot right and well...we've got mailmandan to set us straight. How about Shakespeare? A useless hack right?