Two category's that must be kept separate JUSTIFICATION - SANCTIFICATION

[hornetguy]

I encourage everyone who posts as much as I do to learn abbreviations for terms used frequently, including:

GW = God’s Word (Scripture),
OT = Old Testament (Covenant),
NT = New Testament,
HS = Holy Spirit,
JC = Jesus Christ (or Christ Jesus),
TOJ = teachings of Jesus,
TOP = teachings of Paul (& Peter),
GRFS = God’s requirement for salvation,
KOTH = king of the hill (struggle),
PP = propensity principle (logical reasons to believe in God),
UMI = universal moral imperative (God’s will),
DOD = duo of desirables (heaven & hell),
KOG/H = kingdom of God/heaven,
RC = Roman Catholicism
MFW = moral free will (volition),
TULIP = total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance programmed
LIC = love in Christ

Sorry, not going to happen. I prefer to spell out what I mean to say.... and not guess what others are saying...
I don't want to have to use a decoder book to carry on a conversation... but, I'm old, and set in my ways, such as speaking English.

 

[hornetguy]

I didn't mean to sound derogatory to you.... I have no problem with your abbreviating things, but it makes it difficult for me to easily follow along and participate/respond.

 

[GWH]

I prefer:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - JUSTIFICATION:
denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" "to justify" it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt.

In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart.

(Works based salvation collapse right here > Justification = The act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal "to justify".)

Rom 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:30, God justifies Jew & Gentile through faith.
Rom 4:5, God justifies the ungodly; faith is counted as righteousness.

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANCTIFIED1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services. 2. Affectedly holy.

SANC'TIFIER, n. He that sanctifies or makes holy. In theology, the Holy Spirit is, by way of eminence, denominated the Sanctifier.

SANC'TIFY, v.t. Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy. 2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

(NOTE: Sanctified means to made holy & the Holy Spirit alone is the Sanctifier, therefore works don't/can't maintain salvation, because claiming they do makes you & not the Holy Spirit, the one who keeps you holy.)

Justification is when a Sovereign God judicially declares you righteous based on faith placed in Jesus once‑for‑all sin atoning payment & resurrection, an eternal life declaration. Rom 5:1 Having BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's why Paul uses courtroom terms: counted, credited, imputed (Rom 4:5–8).

Sanctification DOES NOT separated anyone from their sinful nature. Sanctification = Set apart by God for sacred services, the new indwelling Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Now you are no longer under sins dominion & the Holy Spirit helps lead you to grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Sin struggles still remain: The flesh lusts against the Spirit (Gal 5:17). I see another law in my members warring against my mind (Rom 7:23) etc.

Your definitions blur the line Scripture keeps sharp. If justification = a state of being in Christ & sanctification = a state of being in Christ. The categories collapse into one thing.

But Paul refuses to collapse them: Justification = God's unchanging verdict. Sanctification = the Holy Spirit's ongoing work. One is finished & the other is lifelong.

Blending them always leads back to a works‑shaped gospel where the justification verdict depends on the believer's progress.

The biblical categories remain clean: Justification = God's once‑for‑all legal declaration, based on Christ's faithful obedient, blood sacrifice & resurrection. Received by faith apart from works & it never fluctuates.

Sanctification = The Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer, growth, struggle, maturity, transformation that continues until glorification.

Yes, justification occurs at conversion, which is the beginning of the process of sanctification.

 

[GWH]

I didn't mean to sound derogatory to you.... I have no problem with your abbreviating things, but it makes it difficult for me to easily follow along and participate/respond.

No problem, but I encourage you not to be stubborn.
I use abbreviations for key concepts because I discuss them so much.

 

[Nedsk]

I knew you couldn't provide scripture to defend your transubstantiation position & when a man mocks Scripture instead of answering it, the debate is already over

I don't need to defend transubstantiation as Jesus said the bread he will give is his flesh, then three times repeats eat my flesh drink my blood. If you don't believe him you won't believe me. I couldn't care less what you know.

 

[FlyingDove]

I don't need to defend transubstantiation as Jesus said the bread he will give is his flesh, then three times repeats eat my flesh drink my blood. If you don't believe him you won't believe me. I couldn't care less what you know.

If you come on a discussion forum & promote it you should be able to defend it. Your answer proved my point.

You've make it clear you don't like scripture, your loss.

Jn 6:35 explains Jn 6:53

Jn 6:
35Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].
(NOTE: The brackets are placed by the translators. HE is the BREAD of life & those who BELIEVE will Hunger of Thirst because His BREAD & DRINK are SPIRITUAL FOOD)

36But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe
(NOTE: His actions/miracles proved He was the Son of God/Messiah they saw Him & rejected Him)

Jn 6:
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53And Jesus said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood [unless you believe in Me as Savior and believe in the saving power of My blood which will be shed for you], you do not have life in yourselves.
(NOTE Unless you BELIEVE He is Savior & His Blood has SAVING POWER)

54The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] has eternal life [that is, now possesses it], and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
(NOTE: He that BELIEVES & accepts Him As Savior HAS RIGHT NOW eternal life)

55For My flesh is true [spiritual] food, and My blood is true [spiritual] drink.
(NOTE: Here's the key NEDDY the BREAD & WINE are SPIRITUAL (NOT LITERAL) FOOD & DRINK)

 

[Nedsk]

If you come on a discussion forum & promote it you should be able to defend it. Your answer proved my point.

You've make it clear you don't like scripture, your loss.

Jn 6:35 explains Jn 6:53

Jn 6:
35Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].
(NOTE: The brackets are placed by the translators. HE is the BREAD of life & those who BELIEVE will Hunger of Thirst because His BREAD & DRINK are SPIRITUAL FOOD)

36But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe
(NOTE: His actions/miracles proved He was the Son of God/Messiah they saw Him & rejected Him)

Jn 6:
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53And Jesus said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood [unless you believe in Me as Savior and believe in the saving power of My blood which will be shed for you], you do not have life in yourselves.
(NOTE Unless you BELIEVE He is Savior & His Blood has SAVING POWER)

54The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] has eternal life [that is, now possesses it], and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
(NOTE: He that BELIEVES & accepts Him As Savior HAS RIGHT NOW eternal life)

55For My flesh is true [spiritual] food, and My blood is true [spiritual] drink.
(NOTE: Here's the key NEDDY the BREAD & WINE are SPIRITUAL (NOT LITERAL) FOOD & DRINK)

I didn't promote transubstantiation. Copy and paste where I did. You people are tiring sometimes. What I did was repeat the words of Jesus and then had you droning on that what he said isn't what he meant to say. Quite frankly there are many others here with a lot more to offer and that includes people I disagree with.

 

[hornetguy]

but I encourage you not to be stubborn.

my wife encourages that, as well....

 

[FlyingDove]

I didn't promote transubstantiation. Copy and paste where I did. You people are tiring sometimes. What I did was repeat the words of Jesus and then had you droning on that what he said isn't what he meant to say. Quite frankly there are many others here with a lot more to offer and that includes people I disagree with.

Really? You may want to revisit Posts #54, 62, 64, 65

More help for the mentally frail & spiritually blind:

Jesus regularly uses identity metaphors to reveal spiritual truth: I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12). I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11).

None of these are literal. None are parables. All are metaphorical self descriptions pointing to spiritual realities.

Jesus’ Bread of Life discourse that begins Jn 6:35 is METAPHORICAL

Jn 6:35 Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].

(NOTE: Jesus sets the interpretive key: Bread > Jesus Himself (metaphor). Hunger > coming to Him. Thirst > believing in Him. Therefore, Eating = believing, Drinking = believing. This is not about literal bread or literal flesh, it is about believing in the crucified & risen Christ bringing spiritual life.)

Jesus is the Bread of Life (a metaphor) for the One who gives eternal life. Those who believe in Him as Savior will never hunger or thirst spiritually, because His body given & blood shed on the cross provide the life their souls need. The eating & drinking language throughout the discourse is simply the metaphorical continuation of the definition He gives in verse 35.

The metaphor ends when the discourse ends here:

Jn 6:58 “This is the Bread which came down out of heaven. It is not like [the manna that] our fathers ate and they [eventually] died; the one who eats this Bread [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] will live forever.”

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].

 

[Nedsk]

Really? You may want to revisit Posts #54, 62, 64, 65

More help for the mentally frail & spiritually blind:

Jesus regularly uses identity metaphors to reveal spiritual truth: I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12). I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11).

None of these are literal. None are parables. All are metaphorical self descriptions pointing to spiritual realities.

Jesus’ Bread of Life discourse that begins Jn 6:35 is METAPHORICAL

Jn 6:35 Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].

(NOTE: Jesus sets the interpretive key: Bread > Jesus Himself (metaphor). Hunger > coming to Him. Thirst > believing in Him. Therefore, Eating = believing, Drinking = believing. This is not about literal bread or literal flesh, it is about believing in the crucified & risen Christ bringing spiritual life.)

Jesus is the Bread of Life (a metaphor) for the One who gives eternal life. Those who believe in Him as Savior will never hunger or thirst spiritually, because His body given & blood shed on the cross provide the life their souls need. The eating & drinking language throughout the discourse is simply the metaphorical continuation of the definition He gives in verse 35.

The metaphor ends when the discourse ends here:

Jn 6:58 “This is the Bread which came down out of heaven. It is not like [the manna that] our fathers ate and they [eventually] died; the one who eats this Bread [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] will live forever.”

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].

More volume I don't read. I'll say this for the 1000th time I am repeating what Jesus said and what Paul said. You should read more than you write

 

[FlyingDove]

More volume I don't read. I'll say this for the 1000th time I am repeating what Jesus said and what Paul said. You should read more than you write

Everything here is what Jesus said.

Jesus regularly uses identity metaphors to reveal spiritual truth: I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12). I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11).

None of these are literal. None are parables. All are metaphorical self descriptions pointing to spiritual realities.

Jesus’ Bread of Life discourse that begins Jn 6:35 is METAPHORICAL

Jn 6:35 Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].

(NOTE: Jesus sets the interpretive key: Bread > Jesus Himself (metaphor). Hunger > coming to Him. Thirst > believing in Him. Therefore, Eating = believing, Drinking = believing. This is not about literal bread or literal flesh, it is about believing in the crucified & risen Christ bringing spiritual life.)

Jesus is the Bread of Life (a metaphor) for the One who gives eternal life. Those who believe in Him as Savior will never hunger or thirst spiritually, because His body given & blood shed on the cross provide the life their souls need. The eating & drinking language throughout the discourse is simply the metaphorical continuation of the definition He gives in verse 35.

The metaphor ends when the discourse ends here:

Jn 6:58 “This is the Bread which came down out of heaven. It is not like [the manna that] our fathers ate and they [eventually] died; the one who eats this Bread [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] will live forever.”

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].

 

[Nedsk]

Everything here is what Jesus said.

Jesus regularly uses identity metaphors to reveal spiritual truth: I am the door (Jn 10:9). I am the vine (Jn 15:1). I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12). I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11).

None of these are literal. None are parables. All are metaphorical self descriptions pointing to spiritual realities.

Jesus’ Bread of Life discourse that begins Jn 6:35 is METAPHORICAL

Jn 6:35 Jesus replied to them, “I am the Bread of Life. The one who comes to Me will never be hungry, and the one who believes in Me [as Savior] will never be thirsty [for that one will be sustained spiritually].

(NOTE: Jesus sets the interpretive key: Bread > Jesus Himself (metaphor). Hunger > coming to Him. Thirst > believing in Him. Therefore, Eating = believing, Drinking = believing. This is not about literal bread or literal flesh, it is about believing in the crucified & risen Christ bringing spiritual life.)

Jesus is the Bread of Life (a metaphor) for the One who gives eternal life. Those who believe in Him as Savior will never hunger or thirst spiritually, because His body given & blood shed on the cross provide the life their souls need. The eating & drinking language throughout the discourse is simply the metaphorical continuation of the definition He gives in verse 35.

The metaphor ends when the discourse ends here:

Jn 6:58 “This is the Bread which came down out of heaven. It is not like [the manna that] our fathers ate and they [eventually] died; the one who eats this Bread [believes in Me, accepts Me as Savior] will live forever.”

Jesus interprets here:
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].

Jesus never says METAPHORICAL that's what your cashier turned pastor has told you. I don't listen to him anymore than I listen to you. You don't know what else to do but spit out what's been programmed into you do you?

 

[GWH]

Jesus never says METAPHORICAL that's what your cashier turned pastor has told you. I don't listen to him anymore than I listen to you. You don't know what else to do but spit out what's been programmed into you do you?

In John 16:25 Jesus referred to using language other than plain speaking,
which would be unplain/nonliteral/figurative/metaphorical/allegorical/parable, etc.

 

[Nedsk]

In John 16:25 Jesus referred to using language other than plain speaking,
which would be unplain/nonliteral/figurative/metaphorical/allegorical/parable, etc.

My goodness. So we stop reading after verse 25. Excellent

 

[GWH]

My goodness. So we stop reading after verse 25. Excellent

No, we read John 17 and the rest of the NT--as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

 

[Nedsk]

No, we read John 17 and the rest of the NT--as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

Jesus is quite clear in verse 51. Everyone in that story understands exactly what Jesus is saying. Paul even repeats it but you're talking about having it sink in? You folks are highly skilled at ignoring the stuff you don't like.

 

[GWH]

Jesus is quite clear in verse 51. Everyone in that story understands exactly what Jesus is saying. Paul even repeats it but you're talking about having it sink in? You folks are highly skilled at ignoring the stuff you don't like.

Are we back to your literal understanding of John 6:51?
Apparently you need to read the rest of the NT a few times.
I am posting the 205 TOJ and 315 TOP in those threads for you.
Please feel free to ask questions at any point.

 

[Nedsk]

Are we back to your literal understanding of John 6:51?
Apparently you need to read the rest of the NT a few times.
I am posting the 205 TOJ and 315 TOP in those threads for you.
Please feel free to ask questions at any point.

I don't need to read the rest of the NT a few times as Jesus said what he said as did Paul and neither was speaking in metaphors. It's always the same with you people, you having to tell us what Scripture "really" means but you do so with no evidence your understanding of Scripture is authoritative. I can listen to Jesus and Paul or I can listen to you. LMBO

 

[mailmandan]

It's always the same with you people, you having to tell us what Scripture "really" means but you do so with no evidence your understanding of Scripture is authoritative.

Who's understanding of Scripture do you consider to be authoritative?

 

[Nedsk]

Who's understanding of Scripture do you consider to be authoritative?

The early church fathers like Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of John the apostle. Then there's you.