G7 is always happy to expound further on what he means, so we never have to wait long.
Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations
- Thread starter Chester
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G7 is always happy to expound further on what he means, so we never have to wait long.
Whenever we do not view all scripture through the filter lens of the finished work of Christ "after" the cross and resurrection - we are going to have confusion.
Yes, Jesus did say that out of the heart flows all kinds of evil things which is why we need a new heart. Jesus said in scripture "in context" to "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will become clean". Jesus did clean the heart of man but it comes by faith - not by human effort to make oneself better and supposedly righteous and pure. That's called a religion.
Here is what the scriptures say about the believer in Christ and the new heart. People can believe it or not or just ignore the new creation in Christ and try to live the best we can by trying to make ourselves better. I'm choosing to believe what God says about those that are "in Christ".
The humanistic natural mind of us men will never understand the reality of the new creation in Christ and thus it views this supernatural truth as being "mystical".
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him. In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the Heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
Yes, Jesus did say that out of the heart flows all kinds of evil things which is why we need a new heart. Jesus said in scripture "in context" to "clean the inside of the cup and then the outside will become clean". Jesus did clean the heart of man but it comes by faith - not by human effort to make oneself better and supposedly righteous and pure. That's called a religion.
Here is what the scriptures say about the believer in Christ and the new heart. People can believe it or not or just ignore the new creation in Christ and try to live the best we can by trying to make ourselves better. I'm choosing to believe what God says about those that are "in Christ".
The humanistic natural mind of us men will never understand the reality of the new creation in Christ and thus it views this supernatural truth as being "mystical".
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him. In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the Heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
G7 is always happy to expound further on what he means, so we never have to wait long.
Did you see that? three minutes and there he was!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Right on time, and on target.
Amen, We see how the context is different. I can agree with Both Peter and G7, Because they used different context, thus they were both right.
The old heart could only serve and feed itself. that's why a non believer can not do works of righteousness, It does not have the ability to (it can do morally good things, but not righteous things)
Where as the new heart gives us a new nature.. Able to do righteous things, because "we love out of the abundance of Love God gives us"
Yet the "Flesh" is still present with us, and wars against the spirit. So we can not do what we want to do (romans 7) so even though we have new hearts, and a new nature. We will not be perfect. and have to grow in Christ sp we can see our evil our flesh really is.. (a child of God, or non believer acting like a Christian can not see this, That's why most people who really grow in Christ are horrified at how much a sinner they really are. Yet people call this a weakness, When it is a strength!)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Did you see that? three minutes and there he was!
I can't even answer that fast, especially on weekends as I am normally not here..lol
I understand this. However we cannot make the scriptures line up with our experiences but we need to be open to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying in the scriptures.
I have had people tell me that they asked Jesus to forgive them but He didn't according to them because in their "experience" He didn't forgive them. Now what is the truth - scripture or these people's experience?
I can say that a lot of things that came by way of revelation of the work of Christ made no sense "in my mind" to me initially because of different reasons - the main one for me what my ignorance of the scriptures, my prior church teachings, and the fact that "my experience" said something different.
This revelation of the work of Christ is not something that I could get my mind around for quite some time but I kept open and listened to my spirit within and searched the scriptures and prayed for the Father to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in my inner man - like Paul did.
Try praying Paul's prayers in Ephesians for a few months and watch how things change within you....I still pray them constantly - the more I see - the more I know that I don't see as I ought to see them...
Did you see that? three minutes and there he was!
I had finished my ice cream!...Friday's are great days for me!! .Yummmy..then I looked on here...lol
That's right. Jesus' words were and are true for the un-regenerated man that is not in Christ. However we that are in Christ have now a new heart - where Christ lives as one with us. If we fail to see that - then we are making up a religion of trying to make our hearts pure and righteous.
This creates a works-based righteousness humanistic mindset that is at it's core denying the work of Christ in the life of the believer.
The flesh is NOT the real us. We are responsible with what we do in these bodies. When the body dies - it is not coming with us top be with the Lord. The flesh is NOT the spirit of man where Christ dwells.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Originally Posted by Chester
Did you see that? three minutes and there he was!
I had finished my ice cream!...Friday's are great days for me!! .Yummmy..then I looked on here...lol
Glad you enjoyed, I may have to get me a banana split tonight..
I also ate a whole pizza too with extra, extra cheese....I have to get those calories up!..I love these "cheat days"...err....I mean "re-feed days"...lol...re-feed sounds so much better!
Yes...is he omnipresent??
LOL..I am well rounded now after eating that ice cream and whole pizza...but it was for the greater good!...Thank you Lord for "re-feed days"....
I just can't see it the same way. I think this just doesn't help me, but helps others and that's good, but other different explanations do help me. I don't think I can never be free from my flesh. I think when I walk in the Spirit, I am free from it, but when I stop walking in the Spirit, I become entangled by it. Or to put it another way, when I trust Him (abide), I don't sin but when I stop abiding, I stumble.
I agree that the "flesh" or what I call enmity, will be there as long as I live. But I don't agree that it will always pull at me. If I trust, I abide and walk in the Spirit and it doesn't have power over me that I will do what it wants. If I stop abiding in Him, it tosses me around like a rag doll.
I sometimes ALMOST can grasp what you're saying, but then...no, it doesn't click into place.
As for being careful to not make scripture get into line with your experience - that's why I was careful to say it doesn't seem to match my experience of walking in the Spirit AND it doesn't seem to match the way I understand scripture.
But others seem to understand you and it does match their experience, so I think I am just not ready yet for this. It's not for lack of trying to understand, so...I just can't understand it yet I think...
I understand completely what you are saying - I have been there and still am "there" in some areas too.
You are right as we will never be free of the flesh - well when we die - then we are free..lol because it aint' coming with us.
Yes..I believe you are right - the flesh is a deceptive little beast and it has a "voice" that speaks "things" to us.
Revelation truth of what Jesus has already done for us is like the day dawns and the day star arise in our hearts Peter said in 2 Pet. 1:19. Jesus is that day star that arises in our hearts.
We see a little bit at a time until we get more "light" on the subject - then at noon - we have the full brightness of it. I don't think we get to the "noon part" until we see Jesus face to face and even then we will for all of eternity be seeing new facets of Him and our loving Father.
I really encourage you to pray Paul's prayers in Ephesians over your life and watch how "things" come together as you begin to see truth first in your spirit and then your mind becomes renewed to it. As I said..the more we see...the more we know that we don't see as we ought to see. He is that awesome and wonderful and His riches are unfathomable.
We can rest in His love for us....
Here in the first few lines I see a non-biblical assumption that is clearly wrong.
The heart of a person is the place where they dwell. It is their essence, their
actual thoughts, attitudes, reactions without a filter.
Scripture calls that we are a new creation, born again, so a real new beginning born
of God.
Ezek talks about a new heart in terms of attitude approach.
Now the new heart is a heart of flesh and not of stone. So this heart is not defended,
love, empathy, openness can work within it. It is not necessary a transplant but a
change of being.
Now our experience is our desire can still flow carnally, and we can still dwell on the
wrong things inside ourselves, in our hearts.
So if you go with a new heart theology, the carnal side is the flesh or the old heart.
But then ones language can just get schizophrenic, and everything good is of God,
and everything evil is the flesh or the old heart.
Paul talks about the blood of christ purifying us, our consciences being cleaned etc.
It is why the language of the new heart sounds gnostic and shows all the similar theological
failings of instant perfection, realisation of the who we are not becoming what we need to
be in Christ, the ultimate fulfillment.
And all the rejection of Christs words and victory, purity and righteousness, the condemnation
of religion as a mission etc all stems from this mistake.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
2 cor 5:17
A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:7-8
Sowing to the flesh is not immature Christians but falling into hell.
So by diluting what the flesh means, creating a split of heart, perfect new, flawed old, a different
faith is created. It is why the common words are redefined, and spiritual realities condemned as
failed religion, while everything is new mystical grace realisation.
If I saw this in scripture, I would follow it, but it is not there and only works by making Jesus's
words irrelevant and empty.
This for me is the lack of taking responsibility.
We are a physical whole, body, soul and spirit. God saves it all.
The reactions or biology is our pre-programmed responses to our existance.
We can recognise them and respond to them or respond in a balanced way putting things
into being appropriate and loving.
The hardest step for me to make was to realise every sin done by man I could also do.
I have all the abilities and functions to get there.
Sowing and reaping. Jesus seems to be saying to us we become what we sow, literally.
There will always be a tension, but Jesus is showing us we can sow to God and the righteousness,
or evil and carnal desires.
Probably in all of eternity this tension is still there. Everything can be turned to serve oneself only,
or the community.
Is there any desire we have that does not have an appropriate outlet in the Lord?
One of the biggest spiritual failures is in repression of desire rather than admission and channeling.
If you live by repression you end making it stronger, but by admission, working things through,
you begin to find resolution.
Disowning the flesh is about denial and repression so always will end in making things 100% worse.
I do understand that I must still die, because of sin. At first, this was a disturbance to me and I couldn't understand it. Because it seemed to go against Him dying to do away with my sin. But I clearly see it is still here in me and can rise up whenever I stop abiding/trusting. And I am GLAD that whatever this part of me is must die and will not be allowed in heaven, because I hate it. It causes me great headaches sometimes. I don't want to live with it in me. If I could jump out of my skin to be rid of it, I would figure out how to jump out of my skin.
Pride. I do not have pride in the normal way, listen to me I really know something etc.
I have pride that I want to be thought of as following Jesus and to witness to Him.
I realised this because I got upset when this very thing was attacked.
Now being right is not important, getting to the right place is.
It is because I am never right, only Christ is, so until I am like Him I still fail and need
to work on things and probably this is an eternal process.
Now I get to the right place through scripture, through prayer, through praise, through
the peace of the Lord dwelling in me and through me, through fellowship and sharing,
through knowing my reference points and experience, through doubt and questioning.
I often use my enemies, the strongest critics as they often hold the biggest weaknesses
that need addressing.
And over time I will change. Ofcourse as my experience grows I become more certain
and assured, rooted and grounded in God.
Now some may call this pride, but I call it walking with Jesus. And if you start evangelising
and looking at different faiths, you know this is what it is all about. The walk or the way.
What staggars me is how the word speaks to me more than ever, and still I know I know
so little. But basic foundations and morality, these are milk, repentance, confession,
forgiveness, the blood, conscience, the work of the Holy Spirit. But it is here where things
are being changed.
Whenever people take a part of what is said without the context it was said in - that is "twisting" what is being said. Here is what I said in context. This is one of the reasons why we ignore certain people and do not interact with them.
Here is what I said "in context". I don't know why I even bother with this kind of behavior in some people but I will show what was said so that maybe it can help others.
Quote:
The flesh is NOT the real us. We are responsible with what we do in these bodies. When the body dies - it is not coming with us to be with the Lord. The flesh is NOT the spirit of man where Christ dwells.
Unquote:
Even Paul talks about the flesh as being against the spirit and that us believers are NOT in the flesh but in the spirit in Romans chapter 7-8. It's no wonder that Christ and the new heart we have in Him is a mystery to us.
Here is what I said "in context". I don't know why I even bother with this kind of behavior in some people but I will show what was said so that maybe it can help others.
Quote:
The flesh is NOT the real us. We are responsible with what we do in these bodies. When the body dies - it is not coming with us to be with the Lord. The flesh is NOT the spirit of man where Christ dwells.
Unquote:
Even Paul talks about the flesh as being against the spirit and that us believers are NOT in the flesh but in the spirit in Romans chapter 7-8. It's no wonder that Christ and the new heart we have in Him is a mystery to us.
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How do you not have pride in the normal, or usual way, peter?
If you can still be angered by being treated badly, you have pride in the normal and usual manner of all mankind...
If you ever get peeved that someone is being very selfish with their demands on you, you have pride in the normal and usual way of all mankind.