Unconditional Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 9, 2023
97
60
18
Perth, Western Australia
#1
Unconditional Salvation
I am not a Calvinist but I readily acknowledge that many sincere Christians are. However I must disagree with them regarding their belief of “once saved always saved” or “Eternal Security”. It could also be referred to as “Unconditional Salvation”.
Two of the main scriptures they use to support this view are as follows:
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Rom.8:38,39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Well I am in full agreement with these verses, but we need to take into account that the Scriptures, (such as Gen.2:17 / Deut.30:11-20. / & Josh.24:15. clearly teach that we all have a free will.
Though no force outside of us can remove us from God’s hand we can remove ourselves, jump from His hand any time we want and some do. If it were not so we would not have a free will. -- I will endeavour to keep this as condensed as possible.
The fact is that Salvation is not “Unconditional”. There are conditions attached.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 reads;
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews was written from Rome to the Jewish Christians back in Israel some of which had deliberately chosen to return to Temple worship and ritual rather than face persecution. They saw their old way of life as safer and more secure. It was their choice to deliberately jump from the hand of God. This was a deliberate act, not some slip into petty sin.
1John 5:16 reads;
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
The writer says in verse 9 that he has confidence in those still there which were receiving his letter.
There are two types of sin, 1. Petty sins which we all fall into from time to time and 2. Serious deliberate sin where we while knowing the truth deliberately choose to reject God, preferring what the world offers.
John 15:1-11 shows that we are required to “abide in Jesus” and “keep His commandments” (written on the heart, not stone). If we don’t He says He will cast us off.
Rom. 11: 17-24 reads;
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Notice verses 19-20 Shows that Jews who lacked faith were broken off & Christians with faith were grafted in. -- Verses 21-22 warns us that if we fail to CONTINUE in His goodness we also can be broken off again. God’s Love and mercy is shown in verse 23, He is saying, if we return to Him in genuine repentance and faith He will take us back. Of course there will always be some who are too proud to repent and some who’s deliberate act of rejection while knowing the truth will make it impossible for them to repent.

To sum up; We have the free will to leave God or to walk with Him. -- Salvation is conditional on us obeying the Laws of God which He writes on our hearts at conversion and involves maintaining fellowship with Him and serving Him.
When we are converted Jesus adopts us into His family, but as here on earth many whom are adopted into another family run away, so we also can reject the Heavenly family which has adopted us. Much more could be said but this will have to do for now.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#2
op: unconditional salvation?

Or: conditional salvation with "free will" I, myself can receive
Eternal Salvation From God, but then "reject it"?

Possibly conditionally true under God's program of prophecy /
/ covenants / law, with faith PLUS works. However:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Under God's Other program Of Mystery / Grace, Because Of:

Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!

God Has, Unconditionally Given all 'members' of The Body of Christ:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Since we both are in Total agreement with:

Rom.8:38,39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Why is it that "nor any other created thing" does not include "myself"
[ "a created thing"? ]? Would that not be Disagreement with God's Word?

Amen.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,779
624
113
#3
Not here to debate but there is allot more to Heb 6 4-6. There is no clear understanding. Yet in my searching, studying its not about Christians. Sin that leads to death. For me its not about salvation. Its clear the wages of sin is death and we know two in the NT lied to the holy spirit and died right then yet IF GOD did that today most of us would be dead.

Now doing allot of searching on "branches". How its written.. well did you know growing say grapes if a branch is not doing good they even today "lift it up to get more light". One way some look at it. That verse was Christ talking to Israel and all were still under following the law. He was not talking to any believer, not Church. So those branches that rejected this Messiah was cut off. I never took it to mean if some believer grafted in later gets confused by all the "real" true Christians or just says "i'm done" walks away is then cut off.

We still look at Salvation as if its based on time. As if all those other moments don't matter. Sold out yesterday yet today you left Him so all He sees is you left Him. Yet for some reason He will look at our life and every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. We will be judged for the works we did and get a reward.

For me my understanding is, be it branches and the two verses in Hebrews. That person would have to be someone like John, Paul, Peter so forth. They know Him. There is no doubt what so ever yet they never tasted they fully surrendered. I bet some today if they could when they sin would love to offer a sacrifice for that sin yet Christ can not die again. There is no more sacrifice for that sin.

So once saved always saved or you can lose your salvation are not thoughts, questions I have.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#4
Though no force outside of us can remove us from God’s hand we can remove ourselves, jump from His hand any time we want and some do.
Really? After a person is genuinely saved, will he or she ever do such a stupid thing? And you really think that God and Christ will simply stand by?

Eternal security is a SOLID BIBLE DOCTRINE, and did not need the Calvinists or the Reformers to tell us that. Christ and the apostles made that crystal clear. Indeed the ones who are genuinely justified are PREDESTINED to be glorified and perfected into the likeness of Christ.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3). John says that we KNOW this. And the only reason we know this is because God has said it.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
63
#5
To sum up; We have the free will to leave God or to walk with Him.
1 Cor 6~~19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Eph 4:30~~And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Rom 8:16~~The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

John 5:24~~Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Heb 5:12~~
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
63
#6
Unconditional Salvation
I am not a Calvinist but I readily acknowledge that many sincere Christians are. However I must disagree with them regarding their belief of “once saved always saved” or “Eternal Security”. It could also be referred to as “Unconditional Salvation”.
Two of the main scriptures they use to support this view are as follows:
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Rom.8:38,39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Well I am in full agreement with these verses, but we need to take into account that the Scriptures, (such as Gen.2:17 / Deut.30:11-20. / & Josh.24:15. clearly teach that we all have a free will.
Though no force outside of us can remove us from God’s hand we can remove ourselves, jump from His hand any time we want and some do. If it were not so we would not have a free will. -- I will endeavour to keep this as condensed as possible.
The fact is that Salvation is not “Unconditional”. There are conditions attached.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 reads;
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews was written from Rome to the Jewish Christians back in Israel some of which had deliberately chosen to return to Temple worship and ritual rather than face persecution. They saw their old way of life as safer and more secure. It was their choice to deliberately jump from the hand of God. This was a deliberate act, not some slip into petty sin.
1John 5:16 reads;
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
The writer says in verse 9 that he has confidence in those still there which were receiving his letter.
There are two types of sin, 1. Petty sins which we all fall into from time to time and 2. Serious deliberate sin where we while knowing the truth deliberately choose to reject God, preferring what the world offers.
John 15:1-11 shows that we are required to “abide in Jesus” and “keep His commandments” (written on the heart, not stone). If we don’t He says He will cast us off.
Rom. 11: 17-24 reads;
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Notice verses 19-20 Shows that Jews who lacked faith were broken off & Christians with faith were grafted in. -- Verses 21-22 warns us that if we fail to CONTINUE in His goodness we also can be broken off again. God’s Love and mercy is shown in verse 23, He is saying, if we return to Him in genuine repentance and faith He will take us back. Of course there will always be some who are too proud to repent and some who’s deliberate act of rejection while knowing the truth will make it impossible for them to repent.

To sum up; We have the free will to leave God or to walk with Him. -- Salvation is conditional on us obeying the Laws of God which He writes on our hearts at conversion and involves maintaining fellowship with Him and serving Him.
When we are converted Jesus adopts us into His family, but as here on earth many whom are adopted into another family run away, so we also can reject the Heavenly family which has adopted us. Much more could be said but this will have to do for now.
Heb 6:4-6 is actually eternal security. Say, if a believer thinks he can jump out of Christ's grasp and lose salvation(fallen away) it is impossible to again be born again. Once born again always born- again. We put him to open shame teaching loss of salvation. He died ONCE for our sins.

1 John 5:16 is a physical death. Our eternal life is, well, eternal.

Rom 11 is the Gentiles and the Nation of Israel. God is going to graft Israel back in.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
63
#7
Really? After a person is genuinely saved, will he or she ever do such a stupid thing? And you really think that God and Christ will simply stand by?

Eternal security is a SOLID BIBLE DOCTRINE, and did not need the Calvinists or the Reformers to tell us that. Christ and the apostles made that crystal clear. Indeed the ones who are genuinely justified are PREDESTINED to be glorified and perfected into the likeness of Christ.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3). John says that we KNOW this. And the only reason we know this is because God has said it.
If we really think about it. These are true believers, I have no doubt, but they teach loss of salvation........that is denying Christ and His finished work for us. Thank God for eternal security. Because loss of salvation teaching is arguably the most egregious and faithless teaching known. The Spirit would NEVER teach that His sealing is negotiable. It's another spirit.

The Faith, has security and utmost surety.........they have fallen from The faith. Not salvation, because we know He saves and saves forever.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#8
If we really think about it. These are true believers, I have no doubt, but they teach loss of salvation........that is denying Christ and His finished work for us. Thank God for eternal security.
Precious friend, I cannot say, only for myself, who or who is not a 'true believer',
but it boggles the mind, how someone, who is one that:

"...God Hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power,​
and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)​
can say they "are walking away" from God. Doesn't that Contradict 'a sound mind'?
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
63
#9
Precious friend, I cannot say, only for myself, who or who is not a 'true believer',
but it boggles the mind, how someone, who is one that:

"...God Hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power,​
and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)​
can say they "are walking away" from God. Doesn't that Contradict 'a sound mind'?
I blame it on our church buildings nowadays. A babe in Christ is going to hear sermon after sermon about "what are you doing for Christ." and they never hear about what Christ did for them and His character and nature. So I always err on the side of saved.

But your right, loss of salvation or doubt is not The Faith. The Faith has ultimate security and utmost surety.