Understanding God’s election

[Believer08]

I’d hate believing in Calvinism. No passages teaches it. Just like no passage teaches OSAS. Just another man made doctrine.

 

[studier]

Stay tuned re 2Cor 3 & 4.

At minimum, be sure to provide references to what you copy from or the AI you choose to use (amazing we have something else to consider now). Please leave out the intentionally distracting proof-texting as well as the lengthy presuppositionally clouded narratives.

Appreciated.

 

[rogerg]

The "lost" are those who at some point in time did not believe.... ergo they are the lost.

It has been explained over and over again.

Yeah, explained, but explained incorrectly. The number of times it is explained incorrectly, doesn't change the meaning of the verses.
Did you read v4:3? You seem to have missed it - that the gospel is hidden to unbelievers. If spiritually blinded to the gospel, they remain unable to believe until unblinded - a blind person cannot unblind themselves. Someone external to them must do it for them.
I noticed you also did not attempt refute the other verses I included.

 

[Believer08]

Not in the sense that you believe it to be. Thus, your explanation of believing it to be is incorrect. Sure you can quote verses, but your explanation of them due to a having a Calvinistic interpretation is downright heretical, as it makes God out to be a monster…but I guess God eternally decreed you to be that way…carry on now…

 

[Believer08]

Keep on keeping on believing heresy…All I have to do is prove total depravity to be false, (and I did) since everything is built off of it. You remove the head from the snake and the rest dies. Total depravity is the head of the snake. I refuted it. No matter what you say about my explanations it proved Calvinism to be false. I also notice you did not refute what I said, but yet I refuted Calvinism. Just another man-made doctrine of demons.

 

[Believer08]

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah, explained, but explained incorrectly. The number of times it is explained incorrectly, doesn't change the meaning of the verses.
Did you read v4:3? You seem to have missed it - that the gospel is hidden to unbelievers. If spiritually blinded to the gospel, they remain unable to believe until unblinded - a blind person cannot unblind themselves. Someone external to them must do it for them.
I noticed you also did not attempt refute the other verses I included.

WOW ... God sure has to put a lot in place (born disabled, blind, born totally hardened, dead like a corpse, unable to hear ... and on and on) to ensure salvation is only for the selected.

God must very worried someone might slip through since He had to pile it on so thick.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, explained, but explained incorrectly. The number of times it is explained incorrectly, doesn't change the meaning of the verses.
Did you read v4:3? You seem to have missed it - that the gospel is hidden to unbelievers. If spiritually blinded to the gospel, they remain unable to believe until unblinded - a blind person cannot unblind themselves. Someone external to them must do it for them.
I noticed you also did not attempt refute the other verses I included.

Yeah, according to them, and Pelagians like them, the deaf can hear and the blind can see simply by willing
it to be so. No need for Jesus to do what He said He came to do. The dead can bring their own selves to life
from the state of being dead... that evil heart is good ground for growing the fruit of faith, and obviously
according to them, Jesus was wrong: the flesh profits everything, as the slave to sin can simply choose
not to be a lover of darkness, and even though they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and can neither
receive nor hear nor comprehend the gospel, they can simply decide to believe what is foolishness to them.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

 

[rogerg]

WOW ... God sure has to put a lot in place (born disabled, blind, born totally hardened, dead like a corpse, unable to hear ... and on and on) to ensure salvation is only for the selected.

God must very worried someone might slip through since He had to pile it on so thick.

Those verses speak for themselves - belittling the gospel doesn't change anything,

 

[rogerg]

Yeah, according to them, and Pelagians like them, the deaf can hear and the blind can see simply by willing
it to be so. No need for Jesus to do what He said He came to do. The dead can bring their own selves to life
from the state of being dead... that evil heart is good ground for growing the fruit of faith, and obviously
according to them, Jesus was wrong: the flesh profits everything, as the slave to sin can simply choose
not to be a lover of darkness, and even though they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and can neither
receive nor hear nor comprehend the gospel, they can simply decide to believe what is foolishness to them.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

I know, truly astounding, isn't it? I don't want to come out and say they're actually blind, but if they're not, they certainly need an eye exam.

 

[NOV25]

All satanic religions are synergistic[.]

 

[tharkun]

To the OP - election does not equal salvation. All Israel was 'elect', but not all of them were devoted Yahwists. Election is corporate not individual.

 

[Believer08]

To the OP - election does not equal salvation. All Israel was 'elect', but not all of them were devoted Yahwists. Election is corporate not individual.

Amen

 

[Mem]

Just showing what the Text says and doesn't say. It's actually important to read it accurately and let Him guide us into all truth apart from our eisegesis and traditions. If/when I make an error in reading it exactly as it meant to be translated it'll take more than your tradition and rhetoric to assist in finding the accuracy.

DBY 2 Timothy 2:15 Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth.

NKJ 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NET 2 Timothy 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

ESV 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

NAS 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

NKJ James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

Some of us have contemplated and prayerfully considered these Scriptures deeply,

While reading through this excerpt, the prepositional phrase "of truth" seemed especially emphatic to mean as meaning, "really."

 

[fredoheaven]

Reformed folks preach or teach the gospel the same way Jesus and the apostles did. We certainly emphasize personal responsibility and accountability for how they receive the message of life. And I also stress to the unsaved that they should earnestly seek God for help. They should pray to him to grant them repentance and faith. Re this last point, this is something you FWs cannot do in good conscience if you remain consistent with your beliefs. Why would any FWer encourage or exhort any unbeliever to to pray to God to effectuate their own salvation, since according to FWT, salvation is self-effectuated by unbelievers themselves. It would be entirely hypocritical of any FWer to tell any unbeliever to pray to God for their own salvation.

Why should one pray for repentance and faith when God commands them to receive as a response to God's grace.
Acts 17:30 At the times of this ignorance God winked t, but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Also, why not put it simply Grace which is the bible word. Why Irresistible or efficacious. Can you enlighten this one? or re trying to fabricate or invent? Thanks

 

[Magenta]

I know, truly astounding, isn't it? I don't want to come out and say they're actually blind, but if they're not, they certainly need an eye exam.

They cannot even acknowledge that faith is a gift...

God must very worried someone might slip through since He had to pile it on so thick.

Yes, we were told some would try to slip in some other way besides through Jesus.

“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.” Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them.

Just as you fail to understand what He means when He says a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

With the heart one believes. You have the corrupt heart bringing forth the fruit of faith.

Maybe one day you will understand that is not possible.

Maybe one day, you will believe Jesus.

You have heard of this too!

I had never encountered any type of testimony like that before.
Poof...... went to bed unregenerate and woke up regenerated.

Perhaps you missed it. Depleted, who was also here as atwhatcost, said that was true not only of her, but of
her husband John also. Maybe you remember her because you say you have been here for quite some time...
The more I listen to you and your ilk, the more it seems you have a strong preference for cookie-cutter
Christianity. However, I can assure you, life is far more complex than that, as are people's faith journeys.

 

[studier]

While reading through this excerpt, the prepositional phrase "of truth" seemed especially emphatic to mean as meaning, "really."

As I understand you, you're speaking of "the word of truth". Am I correct? The "prepositional phrase" throws me off a bit.

There are a few interesting things about this grammar:

• "of" is an insertion by the translators and a very basic one. It's really just a general, catch-all translation. The reality is that there are 30+ ways to translate this grammar instead of using "of". These 30+ can be narrowed down pretty quickly, but the fact remains that there is typically more detail and precision that can be gleaned than the translators typically put much effort into revealing.
• Look up the word "of" in a dictionary and we can see it's not as simple as we may casually consider it to be.
• Your observation is interesting because at times it can be helpful to understand "truth" as "reality". e.g. "spiritual truth" could be thought of as "spiritual reality" which would help us to see that the spiritual is the reality - the underlying reality of our existence.
• Without my going through all 30+ ways to understand this phrase - in Greek it's the "word/message ___ the truth" we can look at that list and this wording and e.g. legitimately translate this as "the true word/message" or "the word/message which contains the truth" or "the word/message - the truth" (meaning the word/message which is the truth) or "the word/message about the truth".

NKJ John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

• Sanctify them by your truth - Sanctify them by your word/message
  • Teaching/interpreting accurately the word/message - teaching/interpreting accurately the truth

This is why teachers should be cautious and receive more strict discipline. The word/message - the truth - sanctifies, God uses it to save.

 

[rogerg]

You have heard of this too!

I had never encountered any type of testimony like that before.
Poof...... went to bed unregenerate and woke up regenerated.

Yes, how long do you think it takes God, when He is ready to, to instill in one of His elect, a new heart, a new mind, a new spirit and a renewed mind? To go from unsaved to saved, from non-believing to believing, happens in a "poof" and that by God.
Otherwise, remaining infected with the old, and prisoner to that which it brings forth.
It is entirely God's work, not man's.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

@Magenta

 

[studier]

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2Cor3-4 is wording, context and grammatical structure. From the recent @Rufus news flash, we're staying tuned for his next post on this section of Scripture so we can all glorify him with emojis or consider and reject his presupposition errors. IOW, business as usual. Maybe he'll surprise some of us and we'll all learn something. I'm open to all of us benefitting. You?

1Cor2 seems a simple point of context re: the deeper things of God.

If I were you, I'd focus on Acts13:48 and ask everyone to explain it. It's definitely a battleground verse.

 

[studier]

Those verses speak for themselves - belittling the gospel doesn't change anything,

Sounds to me like @HeIsHere is doing just the opposite of belittling the power of the light of the Gospel from God.