Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

I mean that although atheists can conceive of no God, if an omnipotent God exists, it is inconceivable to me that Existence (I AM) could commit suicide and not exist or not be omnipotent except in the incarnate dimension(s).

I agree with you that it is unlikely that anything that is ever-existent, which is what the Persons of the Godhead are, and what the Divine Community/Entity they comprise is, would cease to exist.

However, it does not seem to me to be unlikely (metaphysically or biblically) that some members of an omnipotent Community/Entity could choose to sustain less than all things, as long as the Divine Community cumulatively continues to exercise omnipotence, even in the spiritual dimension, through one or more of the Persons, .

 

[GWH]

I agree with you that it is unlikely that anything that is ever-existent, which is what the Persons of the Godhead are, and what the Divine Community/Entity they comprise is, would cease to exist.

However, it does not seem to me to be unlikely (metaphysically or biblically) that some members of an omnipotent Community/Entity could choose to sustain less than all things, as long as the Divine Community cumulatively continues to exercise omnipotence, even in the spiritual dimension, through one or more of the Persons, .

Yes, the incarnate Person.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes, Romans 9:15-22.

Oh okay, let's look at that passage

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

So I can see why you might think the way you do about God that He has the option to choose to hate us.

For me, I like to temper Chapter 9 with Chapter 11.

Roman 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God will use willful people's disobedience or resistance against Him for His purposes, but ultimately He wants to extend mercy to all us. That would include Pharoah and all the godless people He used for His purposes. If any of them had repented, He would have had mercy on them.

So Chapter 9 might make God look arbitrarily cruel, but for me, Chapter 11 shows that God's mercy is available to all.


🚟

 

[GWH]

Oh okay, let's look at that passage

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

So I can see why you might think the way you do about God that He has the option to choose to hate us.

For me, I like to temper Chapter 9 with Chapter 11.

Roman 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God will use willful people's disobedience or resistance against Him for His purposes, but ultimately He wants to extend mercy to all us. That would include Pharoah and all the godless people He used for His purposes. If any of them had repented, He would have had mercy on them.

So Chapter 9 might make God look arbitrarily cruel, but for me, Chapter 11 shows that God's mercy is available to all.


🚟

Yes, as well as the pearls I cast before R, M, & C: Mal.3:6, Jam.1:17, Num.23:19, 1Sam.15:29, 1John.4:7-12, Rom.5:8,
Matt.5:44-48, Gal.5:22, Eph.3:17b-19, 5:1-2, 1Tim.2:3-4, etc.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 9 verses 11-13 ~ Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that Gsod’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
With apologies for typo in first time posted on previous page...

 

[studier]

Yes, as well as the pearls I cast before R, M, & C: Mal3:6, James1:17, Num23:19, 1Sam15:29, 1John4:7-12, Rom5:8,
Matt5:44-48, Gal5:22, Eph3:17-19, Eph5:1-2, 1Tim2:3-4, etc.

Just experimenting with some edits so I can follow easier.

Drop down verse linking not working it seems.

 

[Magenta]

Drop down verse linking not working it seems.

I am not sure what you mean by drop down verse linking. Do you mean the Logos software?
It does not insert itself if you have hot-linked your verses already, as you have.
In such a case, though, clicking the link will open a new tab to display the verse from your source.
If you wish to avoid hot-linking when copying from another site, simply turn off BB code when pasting in info.
That is the last icon above message box. It says Toggle BB code when hovered over.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, as well as the pearls I cast before R, M, & C: Mal.3:6, Jam.1:17, Num.23:19, 1Sam.15:29, 1John.4:7-12, Rom.5:8,
Matt.5:44-48, Gal.5:22, Eph.3:17b-19, 5:1-2, 1Tim.2:3-4, etc.

All of which were non sequiturs and do not prove your false claim of God's "omnilove".

 

[Magenta]

Yes, as well as the pearls I cast before R, M, & C: Mal.3:6, Jam.1:17, Num.23:19, 1Sam.15:29, 1John.4:7-12, Rom.5:8,
Matt.5:44-48, Gal.5:22, Eph.3:17b-19, 5:1-2, 1Tim.2:3-4, etc.

Your self deception knows no bounds. Perhaps if you stopped with your repeated false accusations? But I have already discovered that is expecting too much from you.

 

[Rufus]

Your self deception knows no bounds. Perhaps if you stopped with your repeated false accusations? But I have already discovered that is expecting too much from you.

Not only that but his worthless pearls that he's casting before us is a tacit denial of the attribute of God's immutability of his character. But it get's even worse than that! If God could change his character/nature, then this implies that God is NOT perfect and never was! For if any alleged perfect moral entity could change, then the change could only mean that that entity changed either for the better or the worse. This is why the bible teaches the immutability of God; for a truly perfect being cannot change.

 

[Rufus]

May One and All have a Glorious, Blessed and Joyous Easter. Little does the world understand, let alone appreciate or acknowledge, that the most important historical event in all redemptive human history occurred on the morning of Easter Sunday. But for Christ's sheep it is the most glorious and joyful day to celebrate before God's throne with our heartfelt worship, adoration and thanksgiving to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Blessed be his Holy Name forever, for our hope of eternal life is bound up in his victory over the final enemy and the enemy who held its power.

 

[Magenta]

May One and All have a Glorious, Blessed and Joyous Easter. Little does the world understand, let alone appreciate or acknowledge, that the most important historical event in all redemptive human history occurred on the morning of Easter Sunday. But for Christ's sheep it is the most glorious and joyful day to celebrate before God's throne with our heartfelt worship, adoration and thanksgiving to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Blessed be his Holy Name forever, for our hope of eternal life is bound up in his victory over the final enemy and the enemy who held its power.

Amen!

 

[GWH]

Wow. You and your pretensions to understanding.

Surely you will blame me for this misunderstanding of yours just as you continue to do the other.
And this is exactly why I had you blocked for so long. You are a hater.
Too many like you lack spiritual discernment.
This is why you ascribe to the natural man qualities and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.
Perhaps you are to be pitied.

Well, I was trying to remember how we got crossways, and I could not find it via search except on the thread "Can we really exercise free will?" in post #784 where you said, "Predilection for accord was grossly lacking in his exchanges with me is all I'm saying, and you did not see it because you were not a member then. After his string of false accusations, which were outright lies, I put him on ignore, but have recently removed that. Still, there is not much point in my reading his posts, since his ridiculous abbreviations and interjections of strange words make it just about like reading a foreign language... even though he told me he would stop doing that.
“His string of deliberate lies and false accusations could hardly be called crossed lines and I have seen zero evidence that he wishes to clear this up or take responsibility for his reprehensible behaviour. It is one thing to have a misunderstanding but for someone to come along and just outright tell a string of wicked falsehoods about you is another.”

And then in #791 I replied "Magenta, I noticed you saying that, and I VERY much wish to clear this up or uncross this line! (I thought you were ignoring me.) Please quote me saying a lie or false accusation or other reprehensible behavior, so I can respond specifically,
or at least state your paraphrase of what you think you remember me saying. Thanks!"

I guess all I can do is repeat this request until I can find the post(s) where I already apologized for misunderstanding your beliefs--which you called false accusations.

Over...

 

[Jimbone]

Pelagian heretics seem to embrace a number of other heresies... And they are so very confused about the will of the natural man. It's like they have absolutely no idea who he is, and no conception of the spiritual man by contrast either, which is made apparent by the fact that they ascribe to the former qualities, characteristics, and abilities only possessed by the latter.

Well, the obvious reason and only conclusion I've been able to reach, with this group specifically, is that they just don't KNOW Gods power yet because they've never been in contact with it. They've now started accusing me of saying that I believe everyone has to have a "road to Damascus" level experience to be saved, because I testify this is what God did for me. I will always testify of the truth and the amazing POWER of God on this earth and in our lives, always.

That said I also know and understand that God saves each one of us personally, and this can happen in MANY different ways. Some are saved as young kids and walk most their lives with Him in truth, some have set out to intellectually disprove Jesus so they can shut up their wife and are drawn in that way, some are scooped up in a jailcell after 40 years of hardcore heroin use and reaching the end of themselves, some are visited in dreams on the other side of the world in societies where believing in Jesus is punishable by death. So, I've never said or taught that anyone has to do anything specific to be saved, but what I will say is that NONE of these speak about the power of God the same way this group does. I truly believe that no one who has been born again, for real in truth, can take any of the positions on Gods power that this group takes on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE. From exulting man's free will, to the saved being able to walk away from Jesus whenever they want, they just have a very high view of self and a very low view of Gods transforming power. We can sit here and debate this with them until we turn to dust, but it's not something we can ever "show them". It's something only God can open their eyes to, and I'm tired wasting time trying to show the willingly blind how to see, when they keep jamming the screwdriver in their own eyes.

 

[GWH]

Well, the obvious reason and only conclusion I've been able to reach, with this group specifically, is that they just don't KNOW Gods power yet because they've never been in contact with it. They've now started accusing me of saying that I believe everyone has to have a "road to Damascus" level experience to be saved, because I testify this is what God did for me. I will always testify of the truth and the amazing POWER of God on this earth and in our lives, always.

That said I also know and understand that God saves each one of us personally, and this can happen in MANY different ways. Some are saved as young kids and walk most their lives with Him in truth, some have set out to intellectually disprove Jesus so they can shut up their wife and are drawn in that way, some are scooped up in a jailcell after 40 years of hardcore heroin use and reaching the end of themselves, some are visited in dreams on the other side of the world in societies where believing in Jesus is punishable by death. So, I've never said or taught that anyone has to do anything specific to be saved, but what I will say is that NONE of these speak about the power of God the same way this group does. I truly believe that no one who has been born again, for real in truth, can take any of the positions on Gods power that this group takes on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE. From exulting man's free will, to the saved being able to walk away from Jesus whenever they want, they just have a very high view of self and a very low view of Gods transforming power. We can sit here and debate this with them until we turn to dust, but it's not something we can ever "show them". It's something only God can open their eyes to, and I'm tired wasting time trying to show the willingly blind how to see, when they keep jamming the screwdriver in their own eyes.

My case is that I have always believed in Jesus and walked with Him as you mentioned. As an older teenager I set out to witness to atheists by learning GW, and I discovered that OSAS contradicts the "sour 16" (verses teaching perseverance) in GW, so I amended that belief, but not the belief based on the "7 pearls" (verses teaching divine omnilove) that souls are free to accept the Gospel--although I only recently added the explanation called "seeking grace" to the website. This view glorifies God's transforming power, whereas the view that God merely determines what robots can do does not, and it was arrived at because I am a truthseeker who is willing to amend my views when I learn something new.

Another example of something I added because of discussions on CC is this: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

I hope you also are a truthseeker who is still learning GW. Have you amended any opinions recently?

 

[Rufus]

My case is that I have always believed in Jesus and walked with Him as you mentioned. As an older teenager I set out to witness to atheists by learning GW, and I discovered that OSAS contradicts the "sour 16" (verses teaching perseverance) in GW, so I amended that belief, but not the belief based on the "7 pearls" (verses teaching divine omnilove) that souls are free to accept the Gospel--although I only recently added the explanation called "seeking grace" to the website. This view glorifies God's transforming power, whereas the view that God merely determines what robots can do does not, and it was arrived at because I am a truthseeker who is willing to amend my views when I learn something new.

Another example of something I added because of discussions on CC is this: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

I hope you also are a truthseeker who is still learning GW. Have you amended any opinions recently?

God's preservation of his saints does not contradict the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. The holy ones of God will persevere in the Faith precisely because God is preserving them! Explain to me how anyone who has been gifted with the Fear the Lord can fall away from the faith, since it's this godly disposition of heart that causes the saints to hate evil, shun sin and thus prevents any saint from ever turning away from God (Jer 32:36-41).

 

[GWH]

God's preservation of his saints does not contradict the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. The holy ones of God will persevere in the Faith precisely because God is preserving them! Explain to me how anyone who has been gifted with the Fear the Lord can fall away from the faith, since it's this godly disposition of heart that causes the saints to hate evil, shun sin and thus prevents any saint from ever turning away from God (Jer 32:36-41).

If you understand love, then you know it must be evoked rather than forced. Seven Scriptural "pearls" teaching divine omnilove include: 1 John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44 & 48, Gal. 5:6 & 14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4. It is love rather than fear that motivates genuine faith and love both at the moment of conversion and during a lifetime of perseverance.

Why anyone would exercise God's "seeking grace" (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11) by choosing to reject God's love is a mystery causing both Jesus and Paul frustration and aggravation expressed in Matt. 13:14-15 and Acts 28:26-27.

 

[Rufus]

If you understand love, then you know it must be evoked rather than forced. Seven Scriptural "pearls" teaching divine omnilove include: 1 John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44 & 48, Gal. 5:6 & 14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4. It is love rather than fear that motivates genuine faith and love both at the moment of conversion and during a lifetime of perseverance.

Why anyone would exercise God's "seeking grace" (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11) by choosing to reject God's love is a mystery causing both Jesus and Paul frustration and aggravation expressed in Matt. 13:14-15 and Acts 28:26-27.

So typical of you. You totally evaded the question by ignoring the unilateral NC promise in Jer 32. I guess you think the prophet told a big fat lie? Or has God failed to deliver on that particular promise? You have no answer for how anyone who Fears God will never be able to turn away Him and lose their salvation, do you? Don't you know that no one can ever reverse God's acts and that NO ONE can ever deliver out of his hand (Isa 43:13), and this is why none of God's elect will ever be lost?

And you have no idea what the Fear of the Lord is, do you? You think it's the kind of fear that the wicked have of God -- a fear that is apprehensive and terrifying to evildoers? Is that the kind of fear of God in which the Messiah delighted (Isa 11:1-3)? If not, how come you personally cannot share in the Master's delight of the Fear of the Lord? Are you greater than He is? Smarter, maybe? Wiser? More knowledgeable? More pious? More humble? More righteous? Or could it simply be you have never experienced that great and indispensable gift of godly disposition in your own heart?

 

[Rufus]

If you understand love, then you know it must be evoked rather than forced. Seven Scriptural "pearls" teaching divine omnilove include: 1 John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44 & 48, Gal. 5:6 & 14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4. It is love rather than fear that motivates genuine faith and love both at the moment of conversion and during a lifetime of perseverance.

If I understand love!? As if you do? You have a really great handle on love, do you, especially God's love? You FWers remind me of the world and how the ungodly will very often appeal to God's love to support and advance their political agendas. But since you have appealed to love -- even inferring that love surpasses and is superior to the godly disposition of Fear of the Lord -- then let's look briefly at love to see if you know of what you speak. I say you absolutely do NOT! And that by appealing to love, you have unwittingly placed yourself between a rock (Fear of the Lord) and a hard place (love).

But first a very quick review of the critical importance of the Fear of the Lord. As we have seen previously, the Fear of the Lord leads to life, and this Fear is actually a fountain of life to all who possess it. And this should come as no surprise because those who Fear God will keep his commandments, shun evil and this Fear of God is the key that unlocks the great treasure of God's salvation, wisdom and knowledge. And this Fear of the Lord is a unilateral New Covenant promise which proves its critical role in the salvation of all lost souls.

What YOU do not understand about love is that no sinner loves God! Sinners have rebellious, prideful and arrogant hearts, which is why the Psalmist wrote what he did about the nations of this world (Ps 2:1-3), asking why to the nations rage, and the peoples plot in vain, not wanting the King to rule over them. Doesn't sound from this Psalm that the world has a love affair with God or his Christ. It's for this reason that Moses predicted what God would do for his covenant people to correct this fatal moral deficiency -- fatal because anyone who doesn't love God is under a curse (1Cor 16:22). Therefore, God, through Moses, unilaterally promised his covenant people the day would come when he would provide an eternal, spiritual remedy for this damning spiritual condition:

Deut 30:1-6
30:1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV

This circumcision of the heart, not made with human hands, is every bit as critically important as the sovereign and gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord since only those who truly love God will inherit the kingdom of God (Jas 2:5).

And only those who love God are known by Him (1Cor 8:3). And this explains the major reason behind why Christ will tell many self-deceived professing believers on the the last day that He never knew them (Mat 7:23).

And this lack of love for God also explains Jesus' words in Mat 25:41 when on Judgment Day, he will tell all those on his left to "Depart from me you who are cursed into the eternal fire..." (again cf. 1Cor 16:22).

Moreover, all "agape" love comes from God himself (1Jn 4:7).

Paul totally understood the above truth, which is how he could write that grace, faith and love were all poured out on him abundantly by God (1Tim 1:14; Rom 5:5). This is the only way sinners can truly love God! They receive the gifts of grace, faith and love which empowers them to freely reciprocate God's love back to him!

So, why do you despise these indispensable gifts God has graciously given to his chosen ones? Why do you blaspheme God by heaping upon all manner of insults upon Him, e.g. monster, tyrant, bully, etc. (When you and other FWers do such things you sound like the pagans described in Ps 2 who rage against God, and whom God mocks and holds in derision.) Why is your heart so hardened that you cannot see the helpless and hopeless spiritual condition of mankind? Why can't you rejoice in God's amazing grace, mercy, compassion and incomprehensible love for his chosen people? Why is that you persist on untethering yourself from God efficacious, saving grace, and instead insist on your all-powerful, self-sufficient "freewill" as THE KEY to unlocking God's treasure of salvation, wisdom and knowledge? Why can't you be ever thankful that God, through the Holy Spirit, has circumcised all his people's hearts (Rom 2:28-29)? Why can't you rejoice that God's elect will offer themselves freely (willingly) on the day of his power (Ps 110:3)?

 

[GWH]

So typical of you. You totally evaded the question by ignoring the unilateral NC promise in Jer 32. I guess you think the prophet told a big fat lie? Or has God failed to deliver on that particular promise? You have no answer for how anyone who Fears God will never be able to turn away Him and lose their salvation, do you? Don't you know that no one can ever reverse God's acts and that NO ONE can ever deliver out of his hand (Isa 43:13), and this is why none of God's elect will ever be lost?

And you have no idea what the Fear of the Lord is, do you? You think it's the kind of fear that the wicked have of God -- a fear that is apprehensive and terrifying to evildoers? Is that the kind of fear of God in which the Messiah delighted (Isa 11:1-3)? If not, how come you personally cannot share in the Master's delight of the Fear of the Lord? Are you greater than He is? Smarter, maybe? Wiser? More knowledgeable? More pious? More humble? More righteous? Or could it simply be you have never experienced that great and indispensable gift of godly disposition in your own heart?

Well, I have never feared God, but I love Him.
The hymn that played a part in my "walking the aisle" at age nine was "Love Lifted Me".