Understanding God’s election

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studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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But who is it that gives spiritual knowledge, wisdom and understanding? And what vitally important grace is absolutely necessary to bring God's chosen people to the place of true spiritual knowledge, wisdom and understanding? While the Lord God is the best TEACHER in universe, you conveniently overlook the fact that His students' HEARTS need to be made fit in order to receive His instruction, lest God be talking to a brick wall!
No, I don't overlook what you allege. Just like I haven't said some of the things you allege. At this point it's just a side excursion to your thread to repeat some Truth I know you disagree with and watch you repeat your same arguments. We're all basically talking to brick walls on this thread, not unlike other ones, but this one may be the worst. I have seen a few times how you mention me in some obscure way, and I know it's because you miss me, so I say something here or there just to let you know I still love you, But I must tell you that cats are not my favorite pets. I picture you as naming them all "Elect" kind of like George Foreman named all his sons George.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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I also wonder what you make of 1 John 5:14.
I agree with it. But it would be the negative inference fallacy to assume that this means that God never grants prayers that were not what He had had in mind before someone prayed, like Moses did, so he spared the Israelites. And like the Israelites demanding a king did, so he gave them Saul. Or like the Israelites demanding meat did, and he gave them quail.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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It is human nature to be selfish, judgmental and argumentative (Gal. 5:19-21).
God draws/calls humans to repent of such sinfulness by providing seeking grace (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11),
but Deut. 30:19 indicates the choice is binary and the blessing is conditional.
Rom. 2:29 indicates God's HS circumcises the hearts of those who choose to cooperate with/believe in God as Lord.
To be accurate the text of Gal. 5:19-21 does not say it is human nature to be selfish, judgmental and argumentative. It says that these things are works of the flesh. Jesus had a human nature. The resurrected saints will have a human nature. But they will not need to be selfish, judgmental and argumentative to demonstrate they have a human nature. The works the flesh will do, if not reined in by the mind and spirit, are to be selfish, judgmental and argumentative. That is not to say these are traits of "a human nature".
 
Oct 19, 2024
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More lies! Where does Rom 2:29 say what you falsely claim? Where in the text is there anything about human choice?

Rom 2:29
29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

NIV

And,

Deut 30:6
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

NIV

There are no conditions here. This is a unilateral promise that God will fulfill after Israel experiences the curses of the Law. The text itself and even the larger context of the chapter stipulate no prior conditions for the Jews to fulfill before God acts.


Recently I was reading from a daily devotional in which the author made a very interesting observation about a couple of chapters in Numbers on which he was meditating. Under the Old Covenant when God provided for the physical welfare of his chosen people in the wilderness, the Israelites constantly complained and grumbled against God; for they thought He wasn't doing enough for them! Therefore, they weren't getting enough of Him or enough of his goodness or grace. Then when we fast forward to the New Covenant era we have the exact opposite scenario among so many professing Christians: When confronted with the unconditional, unilateral promises of the NC, they complain that that's far too much all-sufficient Deity and Grace, and far too little human sufficiency! But in both cases with these covenants the cause is the same: Lack of Faith!

The Good Lord above just can't catch a break can He? And this isn't surprising since you don't have the Fear of the Lord in you -- by your own admission. You have NO reverential awe for God -- only for man's "freewill". This is what you worship!
More obfuscation and indication of a divisive spirit or lack of love ("More Lies!").
The choice for Rom. 2:29 is indicated in 2:25-26 ("if"),
and the condition for Deut. 30:6 is in v. 19 ("choose").
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I agree with it. But it would be the negative inference fallacy to assume that this means that God never grants prayers that were not what He had had in mind before someone prayed, like Moses did, so he spared the Israelites. And like the Israelites demanding a king did, so he gave them Saul. Or like the Israelites demanding meat did, and he gave them quail.
Or...it is fuller revelation concerning prayer that was true all along but made clear at the time of the writing of it.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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No. The person whom God has declared he has judged can repent, and God may rechange His judgment to mercy.
Or...repentance was what was in view all along. Abraham prayed for Sodom and Gomorrah to no avail. Why weren't his prayers answered? Is Moses a better at prayer than Abraham?
 

ATG

New member
Feb 14, 2022
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I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …


Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!


Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …

“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)

God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.

“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).


The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.
So, are you one of the few chosen? How do you know?

1Jo 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These Scriptures speak of the proof of who is chosen, not by the manner. We know who is chosen by the right results, not by some mysterious unknown manner of choosing.

The Scripture is not about before being chosen, but about afterward.

Before His choosing, all men have sinned and are not His people. After his choosing, all His people are conformed to His Son's image in good faith and works.

The teaching ought be about how we know who is chosen of the Lord, not about how He chooses.
 

ATG

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Feb 14, 2022
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He answered the words of his prayer, but not the spirit of the prayer. God had no intention of saving Sodom and Gomorrah.
Luk 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In order to avoid contradicting the Lord's will to save men, rather than destroy them, it's more accurate to say that the Lord knew He could not save Sodom, because He knew there were not ten righteous in Sodom.

Afterall, the Lord was intent on destroying the children of Israel in the wilderness, and raise up a new people by Moses, but He didn't, because of the intercession of Moses himself...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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From Ephesians 1 verses 4-6 ~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
:)
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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From Ephesians 1 According to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, God has made known to us the mystery of His will, which He purposed in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him Who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. .:)
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Luk 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In order to avoid contradicting the Lord's will to save men, rather than destroy them, it's more accurate to say that the Lord knew He could not save Sodom, because He knew there were not ten righteous in Sodom.

Afterall, the Lord was intent on destroying the children of Israel in the wilderness, and raise up a new people by Moses, but He didn't, because of the intercession of Moses himself...
Have you read 1 John 5:14? What do you make of it?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Luk 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

In order to avoid contradicting the Lord's will to save men, rather than destroy them, it's more accurate to say that the Lord knew He could not save Sodom, because He knew there were not ten righteous in Sodom.

Afterall, the Lord was intent on destroying the children of Israel in the wilderness, and raise up a new people by Moses, but He didn't, because of the intercession of Moses himself...
I should have posted 1 John 5:14-15.
 

ATG

New member
Feb 14, 2022
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Have you read 1 John 5:14? What do you make of it?
1Jo 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

In the context of Abraham's petition, the LORD did hear him, and would have performed it, if 10 righteous have been found in Sodom.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4 ~ For you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
:)
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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1Jo 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

In the context of Abraham's petition, the LORD did hear him, and would have performed it, if 10 righteous have been found in Sodom.
Abraham's prayer was for Sodom to be spared, but his intention was that Lot and his household be spared. God did largely spare Lot's family, but He did not spare Sodom. There is much to learn about prayer and attempting to manipulate God through prayer, but it was not God's will to spare Sodom. Had Abraham continued to pray until he asked would God spare Sodom for the sake of 1 righteous person, he would have found this out. Abraham believed, after praying, that Sodom would be spared. He thought that 10 righteous people existed in Lot's household.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Abraham's prayer was for Sodom to be spared, but his intention was that Lot and his household be spared. God did largely spare Lot's family, but He did not spare Sodom. There is much to learn about prayer and attempting to manipulate God through prayer, but it was not God's will to spare Sodom. Had Abraham continued to pray until he asked would God spare Sodom for the sake of 1 righteous person, he would have found this out. Abraham believed, after praying, that Sodom would be spared. He thought that 10 righteous people existed in Lot's household.
Who would those ten righteous people in Lot's household be? Since Lot and two of
his daughters were the only ones who ultimately escaped the destruction of Sodom.