Understanding God’s election

[TMS]

Romans 6:14 says we are not under the law. What does that mean?

The law points out sin
Sin is the transgression of the law.

By grace Jesus has forgiven us of sin and taken away the penalty of sinning

Sin = death

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

We are not under the penalty of death, the law has no power to condemn us when Jesus forgives us.

But

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do we continue to sin or transgress the law, because of the grace of Jesus? No

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 7:12-13
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law is not made void, it is fulfilled in us by the Gift of Christs righteousness.
Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

It is God that does the work in my heart and it is God that recreates an new heart within me.
But I need to surrender my heart to God..

My personal experience is that when I give my heart to God (fully surrender) and ask Him for help, I recieve His.
But if I ask and don't give my heart fully to God, then the change does not come.

All glory to God for the change and work..

Back to the verse... Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

God was promising to do this great work in the heart and the seeds heart but what happened after a few generations.

Did God fail to fulfill His promise or did the people fail to give their hearts to the Lord. ??

You're not understanding Deut 30:6 rightly. The promise of a circumcised heart comes on the heels of all the blessings and curses God pronounced against Israel previously in the book. The promise was not fulfilled until some point after Israel returned from their exile in Babylon. That point in time was at the Cross when Christ ratified the New Covenant in his blood. The "new heart" promised in Ezek 36:26 is the same as circumcised heart in Deut 30:6.

You also miss the point that the promise of a circumcised heart is unconditional and unilateral and, therefore, effectual. Verse 6 doesn't say that God will circumcise hearts so that perhaps or maybe his people would love him. Ditto for the promise of the new heart in Ezek 36.

 

[TMS]

A covenant of grace?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Cameron143]

Both Covenants are God's Grace and Mercy being poured out upon His Chosen people.

This is true. But those under the old covenant were required to keep the law as a stimulation for keeping the covenant. Is this true under the new covenant?

 

[Rufus]

Both Covenants are God's Grace and Mercy being poured out upon His Chosen people.

But scripture frames both covenants differently from one another! The NT does not characterize the Law of Moses as a gracious covenant -- even though, admittedly, there are elements of grace in the Law. Rather scripture says:

John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NIV

John is actually contrasting the law given through Moses with the grace and truth that came through Christ.

 

[Magenta]

But scripture frames both covenants differently from one another! The NT does not characterize the Law of Moses
as a gracious covenant -- even though, admittedly, there are elements of grace in the Law. Rather scripture says:

John 1:17 NIV
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John is actually contrasting the law given through Moses with the grace and truth that came through Christ.

John 1 verses 14 + 17 ~ The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

The law points out sin
Sin is the transgression of the law.

By grace Jesus has forgiven us of sin and taken away the penalty of sinning

Sin = death

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

We are not under the penalty of death, the law has no power to condemn us when Jesus forgives us.

But

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do we continue to sin or transgress the law, because of the grace of Jesus? No

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 7:12-13
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law is not made void, it is fulfilled in us by the Gift of Christs righteousness.
Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No argument here. But this was my point. Christ having fulfilled the law on our behalf now imparts that righteousness to us. This is very different than being under the law under the old covenant and subject to the sanctions of the law.

 

[TMS]

You're not understanding Deut 30:6 rightly. The promise of a circumcised heart comes on the heels of all the blessings and curses God pronounced against Israel previously in the book. The promise was not fulfilled until some point after Israel returned from their exile in Babylon. That point in time was at the Cross when Christ ratified the New Covenant in his blood. The "new heart" promised in Ezek 36:26 is the same as circumcised heart in Deut 30:6.

You also miss the point that the promise of a circumcised heart is unconditional and unilateral and, therefore, effectual. Verse 6 doesn't say that God will circumcise hearts so that perhaps or maybe his people would love him. Ditto for the promise of the new heart in Ezek 36.

You can interpret it as you please.
But from my own experience and others, we found that God is willing and waiting to fulfill His promise but it is conditional.

Not all promises are conditional but when it comes to a new heart, we need to have a heart that is able to be changed. God does not force us to have a recreated heart, He offers it.

Psa 51:9-11
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Why ask if God just does it unconditionally. Why repent, why surrender, ???

 

[lrs68]

This is true. But those under the old covenant were required to keep the law as a stimulation for keeping the covenant. Is this true under the new covenant?

Technically, it was doing things differently than the rest of humanity was doing.

Think about us Christians for a moment. Aren't we making decisions in our own personal walk with God that is different than the rest of humanity who deny and reject God?

In theory, we are obeying what we read by not being drunkard's, same sex, adulterous, thieves, liars, disobedient towards God and following New Testament Laws specified for Gentiles that converted to God both 2,000 years ago and today.

 

[lrs68]

But scripture frames both covenants differently from one another! The NT does not characterize the Law of Moses as a gracious covenant -- even though, admittedly, there are elements of grace in the Law. Rather scripture says:

John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NIV

John is actually contrasting the law given through Moses with the grace and truth that came through Christ.

It explains several things improved but yet there's still a list of things we cannot do and be that the New Testament claims if we do them it's impossible to enter into Heaven.

 

[Cameron143]

Technically, it was doing things differently than the rest of humanity was doing.

Think about us Christians for a moment. Aren't we making decisions in our own personal walk with God that is different than the rest of humanity who deny and reject God?

In theory, we are obeying what we read by not being drunkard's, same sex, adulterous, thieves, liars, disobedient towards God and following New Testament Laws specified for Gentiles that converted to God both 2,000 years ago and today.

If this be true of you, you are not experiencing the fulness of what is available to believers.
Do you get up each day determining not to sin? Only to find you continually fail? Or do you submit yourself to the Spirit and walk after Him?
The first is what it is to be under the law. The second is what it is to be under grace.

 

[lrs68]

If this be true of you, you are not experiencing the fulness of what is available to believers.
Do you get up each day determining not to sin? Only to find you continually fail? Or do you submit yourself to the Spirit and walk after Him?
The first is what it is to be under the law. The second is what it is to be under grace.

Some sins can only be made by personal choice.
Not every sin is a reaction without thought but rather premeditated.

 

[TMS]

No argument here. But this was my point. Christ having fulfilled the law on our behalf now imparts that righteousness to us. This is very different than being under the law under the old covenant and subject to the sanctions of the law.

Paul states that the law points out sin..
Sin is the transgression of the law.

No law = no sin.

We are all sinners but by grace Christ imputs His perfect righteousness to us..

Do we continue to sin ?
Do we continue to lie?
Do we continue to commit adultery and covet or take God's name in vain ????

Is the grace of Christ an excuse to keep serving the flesh and sinning?
No
If I try to keep the law to save myself , I will fail but God promised to write it in our hearts.

Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To walk after the Spirit means we will obey and keep the law. Not to be saved, but because the Spirit is only and righteous.

Imparted righteousness is the Spirit working in us to become like Christ.

Christ kept the law and was righteous.
To become like Christ is to keep the law like Christ.

 

[rogerg]

The point however I made is the fact that the LAW is still in effect until Heaven and earth pass away.

Thank You for acknowledging that Biblical fact

It isn't for those covered by Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Some sins can only be made by personal choice.
Not every sin is a reaction without thought but rather premeditated.

Yet no sin is committed when walking in the Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

Paul states that the law points out sin..
Sin is the transgression of the law.

No law = no sin.

We are all sinners but by grace Christ imputs His perfect righteousness to us..

Do we continue to sin ?
Do we continue to lie?
Do we continue to commit adultery and covet or take God's name in vain ????

Is the grace of Christ an excuse to keep serving the flesh and sinning?
No
If I try to keep the law to save myself , I will fail but God promised to write it in our hearts.

Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To walk after the Spirit means we will obey and keep the law. Not to be saved, but because the Spirit is only and righteous.

Imparted righteousness is the Spirit working in us to become like Christ.

Christ keep the law and was righteous.
To become like Christ is to keep the law like Christ.

To be like Christ is to walk in the Spirit. Merely keeping the law outwardly doesn't insure that we do so inwardly.

 

[lrs68]

It isn't for those covered by Christ.

Of course it is it just doesn't matter in the same way it did before one is saved.

 

[lrs68]

Yet no sin is committed when walking in the Spirit.

Unfortunately most Christians don't walk in the Spirit 24\7\365.

 

[Cameron143]

Unfortunately most Christians don't walk in the Spirit 24\7\365.

Fair enough, but that doesn't change what it means to be under the law and under grace.

 

[rogerg]

Of course it is it just doesn't matter in the same way it did before one is saved.

No, not in the "same way" - for those saved and those to be saved, not at all. For them, the law, as you mean it, has/had NO part in their salvation, period.
You are unable to understand that Christ alone is the Savior