Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

The Good News being the source of Faith is some loaded language that I'll pass on for now.

The Good News God promised through His Prophets in the Tanakh about Messiah is what Paul starts Romans with (Rom1:1-2).

What I said earlier about The Gospel of God's Son was intended to be that Jesus is His Son and that message came at the time we both know and is the culmination of a lot of progressive revelation in history that Paul is touching on in the first 3 verses of Romans.

If we take your statement as is, then we'd have to ask you if you mean the Good News proclaimed to Abraham, or the Good News that according to what you're saying had to have been told to Abel and to everyone thereafter that Heb11 says had Faith throughout history.

Belief in God is Faith and that belief has been in place at least since Abel as you know I've been pointing out elsewhere. I don't think I'm adding God to the equation. God is always in view re: Faith. Jesus made that clear by constantly pointing to God our Father. Paul starts Romans with God promised the Gospel in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I used good news because it's your term. I'm talking about the gospel or the word of God. And there is no salvation without the word of God because comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The whole point of the Romans 1 passage is to show that man is accountable before God because the existence of God is known by all. And if His existence is known, man is responsible before Him. But simply knowing God exists and that we are accountable to Him does nothing to provide salvation. Chapters 5 and 8 are concerned to reveal about salvation, and the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in it. Chapters 6 and 7 have Paul anticipating questions on behalf of his audience which he addresses.

 

[Cameron143]

I would say less than 10%

But I know many people I've seen my entire life sit near me hearing the same Gospel preached that never was saved and said had no reason to be saved.

And guess what, the Bible doesn't say Everyone who hears the Gospel preached will be saved either.

The answer is 0. Knowledge of the existence of God has never saved anyone. Faith has always been birthed by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[lrs68]

The answer is 0. Knowledge of the existence of God has never saved anyone. Faith has always been birthed by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I have always said that knowledge of the existence of God could lead to someone going and hearing the Gospel preached but you choose to ignore that. I've always included the manifestations leading to the hearing of the Gospel. So your answer of 0 is pure bunk because it's possible for someone to gain knowledge and that leads to them hearing the Gospel preached.

 

[Cameron143]

But I have always said that knowledge of the existence of God could lead to someone going and hearing the Gospel preached but you choose to ignore that. I've always included the manifestations leading to the hearing of the Gospel. So your answer of 0 is pure bunk because it's possible for someone to gain knowledge and that leads to them hearing the Gospel preached.

Yes, but what would produce salvation is the Spirit and the word of God.
You also miss that all natural fallen men hold the truth in unrighteousness. Left to themselves, they will not be saved but simply fit themselves for destruction.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, but what would produce salvation is the Spirit and the word of God.
You also miss that all natural fallen men hold the truth in unrighteousness. Left to themselves, they will not be saved but simply fit themselves for destruction.

I'm merely pointing out that the manifestations are to peak interest in order to bring someone to the place to hear the Gospel preached and the Spirit of God to bring conviction and the Gift of Salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm merely pointing out that the manifestations are to peak interest in order to bring someone to the place to hear the Gospel preached and the Spirit of God to bring conviction and the Gift of Salvation.

That's not what the passage is doing. The passage simply shows that mankind is accountable before God. The rest you are adding. Nothing is mentioned about piqueing someone's interest.

 

[lrs68]

That's not what the passage is doing. The passage simply shows that mankind is accountable before God. The rest you are adding. Nothing is mentioned about piqueing someone's interest.

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

 

[Cameron143]

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

He draws them to Himself. The ways God does this are myriad. You no doubt have your own testimony, as do others. God works through human agency, life circumstances, personal revelation, etc. And if I've made any accusation, it is that you go beyond the text in your explanation.

 

[lrs68]

He draws them to Himself. The ways God does this are myriad. You no doubt have your own testimony, as do others. God works through human agency, life circumstances, personal revelation, etc. And if I've made any accusation, it is that you go beyond the text in your explanation.

Not claiming you have done anything wrong but to stick with your personal beliefs according to how you understand Scripture.

I was born into a family of Believers and raised in the belief system and educated with both the Torah\Tanakh and New Testament. So I don't apply my experience because even though I had to come to a moment of [DO I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS GOD THING] outside of reconciling the ancient Hebrew People to the Gentiles all connected as children of Abraham. I didn't have the experience of never not knowing about God and some how crossing paths with God and now I believe.

So always being in contact with someone who believed in God my entire life has led me to accept that for those born into a family of atheism and no belief system at all. That anything is possible in how God would or could manifest Himself to them so it would cause them to be interested in discovering God.

Throughout the Torah\Tanakh we see non Hebrew People become Proselytized by them witnessing the Power of God like Rahab or by the rumors of God and it led them to join the Faith. So understanding that God manifests Himself to everyone just seems like it's possible for many more like Rahab or Ruth to do the same thing. My Bible claims God is the same so how unsaved people use to come to God surely hasn't changed either.

 

[Cameron143]

Not claiming you have done anything wrong but to stick with your personal beliefs according to how you understand Scripture.

I was born into a family of Believers and raised in the belief system and educated with both the Torah\Tanakh and New Testament. So I don't apply my experience because even though I had to come to a moment of [DO I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS GOD THING] outside of reconciling the ancient Hebrew People to the Gentiles all connected as children of Abraham. I didn't have the experience of never not knowing about God and some how crossing paths with God and now I believe.

So always being in contact with someone who believed in God my entire life has led me to accept that for those born into a family of atheism and no belief system at all. That anything is possible in how God would or could manifest Himself to them so it would cause them to be interested in discovering God.

Throughout the Torah\Tanakh we see non Hebrew People become Proselytized by them witnessing the Power of God like Rahab or by the rumors of God and it led them to join the Faith. So understanding that God manifests Himself to everyone just seems like it's possible for many more like Rahab or Ruth to do the same thing. My Bible claims God is the same so how unsaved people use to come to God surely hasn't changed either.

It hasn't. Faith always comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's how everyone has become a believer.

 

[Magenta]

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

It has been said many times that it is not just about hearing the physical words spoken but it is about comprehending, Concerning the natural man he hears the gospel being preached as foolishness so there is that... and Jesus opens the ears of people ... He actually talks about circumcised ears just as He speaks of the circumcised heart and God told the Israelis to circumcise their hearts and yet we are told that our hearts are circumcised not by human hands... the obvious answer is that we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit of God. And then we are also told that not everybody hears and that God actually stops up the ears of people so they cannot hear and we are also told that the day is coming and has actually now come when those who hear will live ... so that is actually speaking to the fact that people who hear will be saved... there is no ifs ands or buts just those who hear will live... just as it is a given according to Scripture: Those given to Jesus by God will come to Him... again no if's ands or buts, they actually will, there is no question about it, and He casts none out.

 

[studier]

I used good news because it's your term

Good News is what Gospel means.

I'm talking about the gospel or the word of God.

The Gospel/Good News is part of God's Word.

And there is no salvation without the word of God because comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I assume you left out "Faith" here.

NKJ Rom10:16-17 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This more literally says: 16 But all men did not obey the good news, for Isaiah says, Lord, who believed the message of/from us (or our message) (the message literally = the thing heard). 17 So, the faith/belief from [a] message/thing heard and the message/thing heard from a [spoken] word/statement of/from God.

God speaks a word/statement > God's messengers [convey] God's message/good news > men hear God's message/good news > men believe-obey (have faith in) God's message/good news.

In Rom10:17 "the faith/belief" is referring back to believing the message/obeying the good news (which BTW makes faith/belief and obey parallel terms).

This is from Isaiah. God has been speaking for some time. The result is some men believing-obeying God. This goes back to the Garden and thereafter.

Salvation is spoken of from Genesis on. It was not a new subject for the Hebrew people. YHWH saving people was not a new concept when Jesus came. Salvation is a word that needs to be understood from context as to what men are being saved from. In Romans it's mainly being saved from God's wrath against all unrighteousness of men...

God speaking, men believing, God saving did not begin with Paul in Romans. Why did Abel have Faith? He heard and obeyed God. Paul's teaching in Romans 10 re: God's good news of His resurrected Son was the latest word/statement/message/good news from God for men to hear > believe-obey and the culmination of a lot of God speaking throughout much of human history.

Honestly, I'm losing whatever point you're attempting to make. This is a pretty simple and straight-forward concept.

The whole point of the Romans 1 passage is to show that man is accountable before God because the existence of God is known by all. And if His existence is known, man is responsible before Him. But simply knowing God exists and that we are accountable to Him does nothing to provide salvation.

I beg to differ. Knowing and believing God exists, and not rejecting Him, is a prelude to believing His message He sent re: His Son Jesus His Christ/Messiah who God promised throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Words like this spoken by Jesus are not empty: NKJ John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

The Jews that first believed Jesus is Messiah were from a long, long line of men who believed in YHWH and were awaiting His Anointed/Messiah/Christ pursuant to the Hebrew Scriptures.

All men are accountable. Belief in God's later message of His Son Jesus is the Christ is the ultimate in their final accountability.

I'll leave your general overview re: Romans aside unless you want to get into some specifics piece by piece.

 

[Cameron143]

Good News is what Gospel means.



The Gospel/Good News is part of God's Word.



I assume you left out "Faith" here.

NKJ Rom10:16-17 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This more literally says: 16 But all men did not obey the good news, for Isaiah says, Lord, who believed the message of/from us (or our message) (the message literally = the thing heard). 17 So, the faith/belief from [a] message/thing heard and the message/thing heard from a [spoken] word/statement of/from God.

God speaks a word/statement > God's messengers [convey] God's message/good news > men hear God's message/good news > men believe-obey (have faith in) God's message/good news.

In Rom10:17 "the faith/belief" is referring back to believing the message/obeying the good news (which BTW makes faith/belief and obey parallel terms).

This is from Isaiah. God has been speaking for some time. The result is some men believing-obeying God. This goes back to the Garden and thereafter.

Salvation is spoken of from Genesis on. It was not a new subject for the Hebrew people. YHWH saving people was not a new concept when Jesus came. Salvation is a word that needs to be understood from context as to what men are being saved from. In Romans it's mainly being saved from God's wrath against all unrighteousness of men...

God speaking, men believing, God saving did not begin with Paul in Romans. Why did Abel have Faith? He heard and obeyed God. Paul's teaching in Romans 10 re: God's good news of His resurrected Son was the latest word/statement/message/good news from God for men to hear > believe-obey and the culmination of a lot of God speaking throughout much of human history.

Honestly, I'm losing whatever point you're attempting to make. This is a pretty simple and straight-forward concept.



I beg to differ. Knowing and believing God exists, and not rejecting Him, is a prelude to believing His message He sent re: His Son Jesus His Christ/Messiah who God promised throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Words like this spoken by Jesus are not empty: NKJ John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

The Jews that first believed Jesus is Messiah were from a long, long line of men who believed in YHWH and were awaiting His Anointed/Messiah/Christ pursuant to the Hebrew Scriptures.

All men are accountable. Belief in God's later message of His Son Jesus is the Christ is the ultimate in their final accountability.

I'll leave your general overview re: Romans aside unless you want to get into some specifics piece by piece.

Your overarching problem is that you believe man is capable of reconciling himself to God in his natural estate. That incrementally he will come to a fuller understanding of God and reason his way to faith in God. But this is impossible according to the scripture. Romans 8:7-8 teach that the carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God and cannot be subject to it. From this estate, it is impossible to please God. But you proffer that such a one will recognize the authority of God, transfer that recognition to the Son, and obey God. The word of God says that cannot happen. The gospel is foolishness to such folks and the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation for them. Even if they make a pretense of religion, they deny the power thereof.
If you truly want to understand the depravity of man and his helplessness before God, spend some time meditating on Romans 8.

 

[lrs68]

It hasn't. Faith always comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's how everyone has become a believer.

Here's a compilation of general beliefs using the explanations and definitions of Theologians, Scholars, Those familiar with the Hebrew Texts:

[(None of it involves the New Testament definition given by Paul)]


In Old Testament times, proselytism, or the act of converting to Judaism, primarily involved demonstrating the superiority of the Israelite way of life through actions and obedience to God's laws. While not explicitly commanded to preach, Israel was to be an example, and individuals could be drawn to Judaism by witnessing their way of life. Formal conversion, when it occurred, included instruction, circumcision (for males), immersion in a ritual bath, and sacrifice (in the Temple era).

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Living as an Example:
The Old Testament emphasizes that Israel's role was to be a living example of God's ways, which would attract others to their faith.

Non-Verbal Proselytism:
Conversion was often a result of observing the positive impact of God's laws on the Israelites' lives, rather than through active preaching or verbal persuasion.

Individual Choice:
Individuals who were drawn to the Israelite way of life were seen as making a conscious and rational choice to convert.

Formal Conversion Process:
When formal conversion occurred, it typically involved instruction from a scribe, circumcision for males, immersion in a ritual bath (mikvah), and sacrifice (if the Temple was standing).

"Proselytes of the Gate":
Some scholars differentiate between "proselytes of the gate," who adhered to some Jewish customs but not all, and "proselytes of righteousness," who fully embraced Judaism.

Examples in the Old Testament:
Examples of individuals who became proselytes include Eliezer of Damascus, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, and Ebed-Melech.

 

[HeIsHere]

Honestly, I'm losing whatever point you're attempting to make. This is a pretty simple and straight-forward concept

Oh oh, could this mean you do not understand Reformed soteriology like moi!

 

[lrs68]

It has been said many times that it is not just about hearing the physical words spoken but it is about comprehending, Concerning the natural man he hears the gospel being preached as foolishness so there is that... and Jesus opens the ears of people ... He actually talks about circumcised ears just as He speaks of the circumcised heart and God told the Israelis to circumcise their hearts and yet we are told that our hearts are circumcised not by human hands... the obvious answer is that we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit of God. And then we are also told that not everybody hears and that God actually stops up the ears of people so they cannot hear and we are also told that the day is coming and has actually now come when those who hear will live ... so that is actually speaking to the fact that people who hear will be saved... there is no ifs ands or buts just those who hear will live... just as it is a given according to Scripture: Those given to Jesus by God will come to Him... again no if's ands or buts, they actually will, there is no question about it, and He casts none out.

I am not disagreeing with anything but stating there's multiple ways a person goes from not ever stepping into a Church building to hear the Gospel preached to some how deciding to step into a Church building to hear the Gospel preached.

I believe one of those multiple ways could include when God manifests Himself to them and they decide to go to a Church building and by doing that end up hearing the Gospel preached.

 

[Cameron143]

Here's a compilation of general beliefs using the explanations and definitions of Theologians, Scholars, Those familiar with the Hebrew Texts:

[(None of it involves the New Testament definition given by Paul)]


In Old Testament times, proselytism, or the act of converting to Judaism, primarily involved demonstrating the superiority of the Israelite way of life through actions and obedience to God's laws. While not explicitly commanded to preach, Israel was to be an example, and individuals could be drawn to Judaism by witnessing their way of life. Formal conversion, when it occurred, included instruction, circumcision (for males), immersion in a ritual bath, and sacrifice (in the Temple era).

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Living as an Example:
The Old Testament emphasizes that Israel's role was to be a living example of God's ways, which would attract others to their faith.

Non-Verbal Proselytism:
Conversion was often a result of observing the positive impact of God's laws on the Israelites' lives, rather than through active preaching or verbal persuasion.

Individual Choice:
Individuals who were drawn to the Israelite way of life were seen as making a conscious and rational choice to convert.

Formal Conversion Process:
When formal conversion occurred, it typically involved instruction from a scribe, circumcision for males, immersion in a ritual bath (mikvah), and sacrifice (if the Temple was standing).

"Proselytes of the Gate":
Some scholars differentiate between "proselytes of the gate," who adhered to some Jewish customs but not all, and "proselytes of righteousness," who fully embraced Judaism.

Examples in the Old Testament:
Examples of individuals who became proselytes include Eliezer of Damascus, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, and Ebed-Melech.

All of these have people coming to faith apart from God. That doesn't happen...Romans 8:7-8.

 

[HeIsHere]

Your overarching problem is that you believe man is capable of reconciling himself to God in his natural estate. That incrementally he will come to a fuller understanding of God and reason his way to faith in God. But this is impossible according to the scripture. Romans 8:7-8 teach that the carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God and cannot be subject to it. From this estate, it is impossible to please God. But you proffer that such a one will recognize the authority of God, transfer that recognition to the Son, and obey God. The word of God says that cannot happen. The gospel is foolishness to such folks and the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation for them. Even if they make a pretense of religion, they deny the power thereof.
If you truly want to understand the depravity of man and his helplessness before God, spend some time meditating on Romans 8.

Beyond the Fundamentals

Romans 8:7-8 teach that the carnal mind is enmity against God.

Yes the believer has a carnal mind. These passages are not about the unregenerated person the context in the broader selection of scripture is about the walk and behaviour of a ..... CHRISTIAN!!!

Nothing of what you state here means that person cannot respond positively to the Gospel message exercising faith and trust in the Good News.

There is absolutely no way Paul is expounding on this inability you assume into the text..... your assumption being read into the text is that being each and every person is born unable to respond, when Paul has made it very clear that faith in/trust in the completed work of Christ Jesus is the very condition set by God Almighty.

Extrapolating and eisegesis over and over again... mining and cherry picking scripture that actually negate what you teach.

 

[HeIsHere]

Your overarching problem is that you believe man is capable of reconciling himself to God in his natural estate.

No, the overarching problem which your system denies, is the very condition/responsibility that God Himself has set.

This is actually the very essence of the Gospel ... that it requires a response, that is how God set it up not the cherry picked and reconstructed, reformulation of Reformed doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

View attachment 277071
Beyond the Fundamentals

Romans 8:7-8 teach that the carnal mind is enmity against God.

Yes the believer has a carnal mind. These passages are not about the unregenerated person the context in the broader selection of scripture is about the walk and behaviour of a ..... CHRISTIAN!!!

Nothing of what you state here means that person cannot respond positively to the Gospel message exercising faith and trust in the Good News.

There is absolutely no way Paul is expounding on this inability you assume into the text..... your assumption being read into the text is that being each and every person is born unable to respond, when Paul has made it very clear that faith in/trust in the completed work of Christ Jesus is the very condition set by God Almighty.

Extrapolating and eisegesis over and over again... mining and cherry picking scripture that actually negate what you teach.

The unbeliever has only a carnal mind.