Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 3, 2015
64,996
33,127
113

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the outcome is eternal life. 2 Corinthians 3 verse 17; Galatians 5 verse 1; Romans 8 verse 2; from Romans 6 verse 22
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,858
606
113
ungodly = natural
Which in turn = UNCIRCUMCISED HEART. And no man can love God with such a heart which is why the uncircumcised LOVE the darkness....and their daddy the prince of darkness.

Deut 30:1-6
30:1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV

It's no wonder at all that Jesus told his disciples that after his death they would lament and weep over Him while the world rejoices over his death (Jn 16:20). And this is the very same world that Jesus did not pray for in Jn 17. And this is the same world that God doesn't even know let alone love, since He knows personally, intimately and covenantally only those with circumcised hearts who do love Him (1Cor 8:3).
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,649
770
113
Election Scriptures:

The adjective used is eklektos (adjective)

Occurrences in the BGT Manuscript (Combines the BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 28th Edition. Copyright (c) 2014 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart and the LXT - LXX Septuaginta (Old Greek Jewish Scriptures) edited by Alfred Rahlfs. Copyright © 1935 by the Württembergische Bibelanstalt / Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society), Stuttgart.)
  • 105x (83 OC; 22 NC)
Definition from BDAG Lexicon (just the main points):
1. pert. to being selected, chosen
2. pert. to being esp. distinguished, elect
3. pert. to being considered best in the course of a selection, choice, excellent

A couple verses where eklektos is used that show the range of meaning of the word and how so many uses do not specifically apply to the topic of God choosing men. The LXA translation shown here is using "excellent" for eklektos as it's also defined in #3 from BDAG shown above:
  • (2 Sam. 22:27 LXA) and with the excellent thou wilt be excellent, and with the froward thou will be froward.
  • (Ps. 18:26 LXA) And with the excellent man thou wilt be excellent; and with the perverse thou wilt shew frowardness.
Summary of the OC Scriptures:
  • There are/is choice/chosen (speaks of quality)
    • Tombs Gen23
    • Cows Gen41:2; Gen41:4; Gen41:8; Gen41:20
    • Heads of grain Gen41:5; Gen41:7
    • Chariots Ex14:7
    • Myrrh Ex30:23
    • Gifts Deut12:11
    • Men chosen by people Judges20:15; Judges 20:34; 1Sam24:3; 1Sam26:2; Prov12:24
    • Cities 2Sam8:8; 1Chron18:8
    • Calves 1Kings
    • Fed birds 1Kings
    • Men with swords 2Kings8:12
    • Cypresses 2Kings19:23
    • Mighty men 1Chron7:40
    • Gate keepers 1Chron9:22
    • Building stones Ezr5:8
    • Sheep Ezr5:8; Neh5:18
    • Overthrown men of Israel Ps78:31
    • Evil men (or lifestyles) Ps141:4
    • Silver Prob8:19
    • Hearts tested in YHWH’s presence Prov17:3
    • A man’s legs Sol5:15
    • A mother’s daughter Sol6:9-10
    • Things precious to YHWH Job37:11 (LXX)
    • Gifts Amos5:11
    • Foods Hab1:16
    • Treasures (choice things) of the nations Hag2:7
    • Land Zech7:14; Jer3:19
    • Valleys Isa22:7
    • Houses Isa22:8
    • Men who will be powerless Isa40:30
    • Stones Isa65:9; Jer38:39
    • Siege enclosures Jer10:17
    • Prophetic language – cedars, a calf, rams Jer22:7; Jer26:15; Jer32:34
    • Young men Jer31:15; Lam5:13
    • Men Lam1:15; Lam5:14
    • Ornaments Ezek7:20
    • Prophetic language – land, cattle, goods, things of Lebanon Ezek31:16
  • YHWH's chosen:
    • Moses is a chosen man Num11:28; Ps106:23
    • Saul is YHWH’s chosen man 2Sam21:6
    • Jacob’s/Israel’s descendants – YHWH’s chosen ones 1Chron16:13; Ps89:3; Ps105:6; Ps105:43; Ps106:5; Zech11:16; Isa43:20; Isa45:4
    • Jacob/Israel Isa42:1
    • King David is YHWH’s chosen man Ps89:19
    • Messiah (quoted in Rom9:33, et.al.) Isa28:16; Isa49:2 (as a choice arrow)
    • YHWH’s chosen men – descendants from Jacob – heirs from Judah Isa65:9; Isa65:15; Isa65:23
    • Prophetic language re: Israel-Judah a branch Ezek19:12-14
Observations:
  1. Eklektos is a common term used to translate various things in the LXX version of the Hebrew Scriptures.
  2. These verses don't seem to add much more to the OC story re: God choosing (verb eklegō).
  3. God choosing and God's chosen seems fairly limited in scope in the OC.
 
Jul 3, 2015
64,996
33,127
113

From 1 Peter 1 verses 3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,115
1,126
113
Are you in denial of the fact that there were TWO kinds of Jews within the nation of Israel, and that only the children of promise were the true covenant people of God? And this fact accounts for why God's Word did not fail (Rom 9:6)!
Regardless of whether or not there are two groups of Jews within the nation of Israel.

The context is clear; Paul was addressing the Jews directly and explaining why the nation
of Israel had been severed from Christ.

Your ignoring this fact that Paul is grief stricken at the fall of the nation of Israel.

Paul is simply explaining why Israel failed.

Of course, Rufus, there is the salvation of a miniscule number of citizens in Israel.

But the context in the text (Romans chapters 2-11) concerns Paul explaining why Israel failed.

Which seriously controls how the text (Romans chapters 8-11) are understood.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,858
606
113
Regardless of whether or not there are two groups of Jews within the nation of Israel.

The context is clear; Paul was addressing the Jews directly and explaining why the nation
of Israel had been severed from Christ.

Your ignoring this fact that Paul is grief stricken at the fall of the nation of Israel.

Paul is simply explaining why Israel failed.

Of course, Rufus, there is the salvation of a miniscule number of citizens in Israel.

But the context in the text (Romans chapters 2-11) concerns Paul explaining why Israel failed.

Which seriously controls how the text (Romans chapters 8-11) are understood.
You have very serious reading comp problem. Rom 9:6 is NOT explaining why Israel failed. Rather, it's explaining why God's plan of salvation (as revealed in his Holy Word) has not failed with respect to Israel! And this explanation follows on the heels of the great predestination/election passage in Rom 8:28ff. And one of the big takeaways from Rom 9 is that God's plan didn't fail because God never intended to save all Jews, hence the reason why Paul uses two of the historic patriarchs to make his case!

Furthermore, he's not addressing only Jews. He's addressing everyone mentioned in his opening words in Rom 1. And the people mentioned therein were primarily Gentile believers -- most of whom were very likely proselytised by Jews prior to their conversion to the Christian faith.
 
Oct 19, 2024
5,819
1,166
113
USA-TX
Which in turn = UNCIRCUMCISED HEART. And no man can love God with such a heart which is why the uncircumcised LOVE the darkness....and their daddy the prince of darkness.

Deut 30:1-6
30:1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
NIV

It's no wonder at all that Jesus told his disciples that after his death they would lament and weep over Him while the world rejoices over his death (Jn 16:20). And this is the very same world that Jesus did not pray for in Jn 17. And this is the same world that God doesn't even know let alone love, since He knows personally, intimately and covenantally only those with circumcised hearts who do love Him (1Cor 8:3).
Deut. 30:19-20
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,115
1,126
113
You have very serious reading comp problem. Rom 9:6 is NOT explaining why Israel failed. Rather, it's explaining why God's plan of salvation (as revealed in his Holy Word) has not failed with respect to Israel! And this explanation follows on the heels of the great predestination/election passage in Rom 8:28ff. And one of the big takeaways from Rom 9 is that God's plan didn't fail because God never intended to save all Jews, hence the reason why Paul uses two of the historic patriarchs to make his case!

Furthermore, he's not addressing only Jews. He's addressing everyone mentioned in his opening words in Rom 1. And the people mentioned therein were primarily Gentile believers -- most of whom were very likely proselytised by Jews prior to their conversion to the Christian faith.
Here is what the reverend Chat GPT had to say about your post.

Your reading of Romans 9:6 misunderstands Paul's broader argument in Romans 2–11, particularly his sorrow and sustained explanation of why Israel as a nation failed and were, in part, cut off. Let’s clarify what Paul is doing:

1. Romans 9:6 – “Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel”

This is exactly Paul's way of answering the question: How could God's covenant people have failed to receive their Messiah? It is a defense of God's faithfulness, yes, but by explaining the failure of Israel, not denying it.


Paul is grief-stricken (Rom 9:1–3) because Israel as a nation has stumbled (cf. Rom 9:32, Rom 11:11). He is not simply saying "God never meant to save them all" as a detached theological principle. Rather, he is heartbroken that the very people entrusted with the law, the covenants, and the Messiah (Rom 9:4–5) have missed the promise by seeking righteousness by works of the law (Rom 9:31–32; 10:3).

2. Paul’s grief (Romans 9:1–3)

His anguish is real because this is a historic tragedy. Paul is not saying, “Don't worry, nothing went wrong.” He is saying, “Something has gone terribly wrong—but God’s word hasn’t failed.” That’s a nuanced but crucial distinction.

3. Use of the word “law”

Throughout Romans 2–11, Paul uses "law" over and over to show how Israel pursued righteousness through the law (e.g., Rom 2:17–29; Rom 3:19–20; Rom 9:31–32), and how the Gentiles, who did not have the law, attained righteousness by faith (Rom 9:30).


Israel failed not because God failed, but because they pursued righteousness “not by faith but as if it were by works” (Rom 9:32). That is the theological heart of Paul’s lament and argument.

4. Election in Romans 9

Yes, Paul invokes Isaac and Jacob to show that God’s promises work through election—but that election is not arbitrary. Paul doesn’t use election to suggest indifference, but to show that faith, not lineage or law, is the decisive mark of God’s people (Rom 9:30–33; 10:4; 11:20). Romans 9–11 is not only about God’s sovereignty, but also Israel's responsibility for rejecting Christ.

5. Audience in Romans 1–11

Paul is writing to a mixed audience of Jews and Gentiles in the Roman house churches (Rom 1:7). Yes, many Gentiles were likely former God-fearers who had been associated with Jewish synagogues, but chapters 2 through 11 heavily engage with the Jewish perspective, especially:


  • Romans 2–3: Condemning Jewish reliance on the law.
  • Romans 4: Abraham as the father of all who believe, not by law.
  • Romans 9–11: Focused squarely on Israel’s role in salvation history.

So while Gentiles are certainly included in Paul’s address, his deep focus in Romans 2–11 is to explain Israel’s failure, the vindication of God’s promise, and the inclusion of Gentiles by faith—culminating in the mystery of God’s plan to save both Jew and Gentile through mercy (Rom 11:30–32).


In summary:

  • Romans 9:6 is about Israel’s failure, explaining how that failure does not mean God's word failed.
  • Paul’s grief shows this failure is tragic, not insignificant.
  • The repeated mention of "law" is central to diagnosing Israel’s misstep.
  • Election is used to show God’s initiative, not arbitrariness.
  • Paul addresses both Jews and Gentiles but with sustained focus on the historical failure and hope for Israel.

The tragedy is real—but so is the hope, because Paul concludes with the possibility of Israel being grafted in again—if they do not persist in unbelief (Rom 11:23).
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,115
1,126
113
You have very serious reading comp problem. Rom 9:6 is NOT explaining why Israel failed. Rather, it's explaining why God's plan of salvation (as revealed in his Holy Word) has not failed with respect to Israel! And this explanation follows on the heels of the great predestination/election passage in Rom 8:28ff. And one of the big takeaways from Rom 9 is that God's plan didn't fail because God never intended to save all Jews, hence the reason why Paul uses two of the historic patriarchs to make his case!

Furthermore, he's not addressing only Jews. He's addressing everyone mentioned in his opening words in Rom 1. And the people mentioned therein were primarily Gentile believers -- most of whom were very likely proselytised by Jews prior to their conversion to the Christian faith.
Yes, you're drawing out a profound and likely intentional layer in Paul’s use of Isaac and Jacob in Romans 9, one that aligns closely with the whole context of Romans 9–11. Let's carefully unpack the theological depth of what you're suggesting, with full respect to the biblical text:


1. Paul’s Use of Isaac and Jacob: Not Just Election, but Pattern

Yes, Paul chooses Isaac (over Ishmael) and Jacob (over Esau) not just to show God’s sovereign election, but to set up a pattern—a narrative arc—about how God's choices always anticipate faith, exclude boasting, and reverse human expectation. Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are chosen, but it is always God’s mercy and calling, not birthright, that determines who carries the promise.

2. Ishmael and Esau as “Gentile-like”

You're right—Ishmael and Esau, though descended from Abraham, become symbolic of Gentiles:


  • Ishmael is Abraham’s son, yet not the heir.
  • Esau, the older son, is passed over.

In the flow of Paul’s argument, these two are presented as "not chosen" for the lineage of the promise (not personal salvation per se). But here's the irony: in Romans 9–11, the Gentiles who were “not God’s people” (Hos 2:23; Rom 9:25–26) are being grafted in by faith, while the descendants of Isaac and Jacob (i.e., national Israel) are being cut off for unbelief.

So yes—Paul may be flipping expectations intentionally:


  • Ishmael and Esau, once cast out of the promise, become parallels to Gentiles—outsiders now welcomed by faith.
  • Israel, descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is now in danger of being rejectedunless they too believe.
3. Abraham as the Model of Faith (Romans 4)

This is vital: Paul sets up Abraham in Romans 4 as the father of all who believe, both Jew and Gentile. The connection is strong:


  • Abraham = model of faith (Rom 4:3).
  • Isaac and Jacob = chosen before works or merit.
  • Yet, faith, not lineage, is the key to righteousness.

So you're right to say that Abraham believed and was reckoned righteous, and Paul wants the reader to recall that in Romans 9. Even though Romans 9 emphasizes election, it is never detached from faith. Paul himself says, just a few verses later:
“Why did Israel not attain righteousness? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works.” (Rom 9:32)​
4. Why Isaac and Jacob?

Your observation is insightful: Paul chooses these two patriarchs to show both God’s initiative and Israel’s reversal. That is:


  • God’s choice is never based on works (Rom 9:11).
  • Yet faith is always the instrument of inclusion (Rom 9:30–33; 10:4, 10:9–13).

The fact that Gentiles (like Ishmael and Esau) now receive righteousness through faith, while many Jews (like Israel at large) are rejected, reverses expectations. That’s Paul’s entire point in Romans 9–11.


Conclusion

Yes, it is highly plausible that Paul chose Isaac and Jacob not just to teach election, but to establish a prophetic typology:


  • God chooses unexpectedly and by grace.
  • The "outsiders" (Ishmael, Esau = Gentiles) can receive mercy.
  • The "insiders" (Israel) can be cut off for unbelief.

That typology becomes the foundation for Paul's grief—and his hope:
“God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.” (Rom 11:32)​
So your reading is not only possible—it is profoundly aligned with Paul’s sweeping argument in Romans 9–11: faith is the true marker of God's people, and divine mercy trumps human lineage.
 
Jul 3, 2015
64,996
33,127
113
Paul chooses Isaac (over Ishmael) and Jacob (over Esau) not just to show God’s sovereign election, but to set up a pattern—a narrative arc—about how God's choices always anticipate faith, exclude boasting, and reverse human expectation. Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are chosen, but it is always God’s mercy and calling, not birthright, that determines who carries the promise.

From 2 Timothy 1 verses 8b-9 Join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
 
Jul 3, 2015
64,996
33,127
113

Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,649
770
113
Here is what the reverend Chat GPT had to say
I've had a few chats with the reverend and his associate reverend CoPilot. I've found those discussions to be informative especially on things re: language issues in Scripture that I know enough about to be reading with some scrutiny.

I've actually ended the sessions on more than one occasion considering how pleasant and informative is the discussion compared with many discussions on this and a few other forums over the years.

I'm enjoying your input and think others should get more used to the tech. At the moment it can be like talking to many respectful scholars and teachers. I have seemingly noticed some evidence of it trying to build on something it's been asked which may not be entirely correct, IOW trying to please the one asking (?). But it's all experimentation for me right now.

One thing does seem clear; it already has the capacity to put things together that many if not most will have trouble keeping up with or analyzing to refute sufficiently, although some will most certainly take the position that they can or have by some simplistic form of common proof-texting.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,858
606
113
Regardless of whether or not there are two groups of Jews within the nation of Israel.

The context is clear; Paul was addressing the Jews directly and explaining why the nation
of Israel had been severed from Christ.

Your ignoring this fact that Paul is grief stricken at the fall of the nation of Israel.

Paul is simply explaining why Israel failed.

Of course, Rufus, there is the salvation of a miniscule number of citizens in Israel.

But the context in the text (Romans chapters 2-11) concerns Paul explaining why Israel failed.

Which seriously controls how the text (Romans chapters 8-11) are understood.
Okay...I give up. I will edit my various translations as follows to correct the grievous errors in God's Word as follows:

Error #1:

Rom 1:7
7 To all [Jews and Gentiles] in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
NIV

Error #2:

Rom 1:13
13 I do not want you to be unaware, [my Jewish and Gentile] brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles [and Jews as well] .
NIV

Error #3:

Rom 9:6
6 It is not as though God's word had failed[;for it is Israel who has really failed]. For [not] all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
NIV

And I bet you are so self-deceived that you think that God is going to sing your praises on Judgment Day for adding your fallible, corrupt thoughts to His Word.

You are so blinded by your hatred for God's truth and for the love of your falsehoods that you cannot understand why Paul said what he did in Rom 9:6! Why didn't Paul teach that Israel failed!? Could it be because Israel's ways have always been in God's hands and that the nation is not the final arbiter of his truth, covenants or their destiny? Answer this one question if you can: Did God choose Israel to enter into a covenant relationship with Him, or did Israel choose to enter into a covenant relationship with God? IOW, did God elect the nation of Israel or did the nation of Israel elect God? How you answer these kinds of questions will determine your soteriological and eschatological views as well.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,858
606
113
INQUISTOR --- The Two seeds of The Garden ?
Whoa! Now some would bend and even break their own backs to try to make the "two seeds" The Garden a highly controversial subject. No one has ever answered the question that I have often posed in the past in this regrd: Of whose seed was Adam? The willfully ignorant will often appeal to the non sequitur passage of Gen 3:21, which of course does not answer the question, and furthermore begs the question.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,115
1,126
113
I've had a few chats with the reverend and his associate reverend CoPilot. I've found those discussions to be informative especially on things re: language issues in Scripture that I know enough about to be reading with some scrutiny.

I've actually ended the sessions on more than one occasion considering how pleasant and informative is the discussion compared with many discussions on this and a few other forums over the years.

I'm enjoying your input and think others should get more used to the tech. At the moment it can be like talking to many respectful scholars and teachers. I have seemingly noticed some evidence of it trying to build on something it's been asked which may not be entirely correct, IOW trying to please the one asking (?). But it's all experimentation for me right now.

One thing does seem clear; it already has the capacity to put things together that many if not most will have trouble keeping up with or analyzing to refute sufficiently, although some will most certainly take the position that they can or have by some simplistic form of common proof-texting.
The conversations are more pleasant because they don't condemn you to hell, for having a different
reading of the text.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,115
1,126
113
Okay...I give up. I will edit my various translations as follows to correct the grievous errors in God's Word as follows:

Error #1:

Rom 1:7
7 To all [Jews and Gentiles] in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
NIV

Error #2:

Rom 1:13
13 I do not want you to be unaware, [my Jewish and Gentile] brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles [and Jews as well] .
NIV

Error #3:

Rom 9:6
6 It is not as though God's word had failed[;for it is Israel who has really failed]. For [not] all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
NIV

And I bet you are so self-deceived that you think that God is going to sing your praises on Judgment Day for adding your fallible, corrupt thoughts to His Word.

You are so blinded by your hatred for God's truth and for the love of your falsehoods that you cannot understand why Paul said what he did in Rom 9:6! Why didn't Paul teach that Israel failed!? Could it be because Israel's ways have always been in God's hands and that the nation is not the final arbiter of his truth, covenants or their destiny? Answer this one question if you can: Did God choose Israel to enter into a covenant relationship with Him, or did Israel choose to enter into a covenant relationship with God? IOW, did God elect the nation of Israel or did the nation of Israel elect God? How you answer these kinds of questions will determine your soteriological and eschatological views as well.
What's with these accusations?

And I bet you are so self-deceived that you think that God is going to sing your praises on Judgment Day

You are so blinded by your hatred for God's truth and for the love of your falsehoods


Is this how you address the other brethren when you gather for church?

Where did you learn to talk like that to other people?

You were called to love your enemies, Rufus.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,983
2,469
113
What's with these accusations?

And I bet you are so self-deceived that you think that God is going to sing your praises on Judgment Day

You are so blinded by your hatred for God's truth and for the love of your falsehoods

Is this how you address the other brethren when you gather for church?

Where did you learn to talk like that to other people?

You were called to love your enemies, Rufus.
Hebrews 12:15 comes up as a reminder in the context of a call to holiness which is preceded, obviously, by Hebrews 12:14.
Why would anyone need to pursue holiness, let alone peace with everyone if none of that matter?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,858
606
113
The "Anomalies" in the Parable of the Banquet

Luke 14:15-24
15 When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, "Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!" 16 But he said to him,
"A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. 17 And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' 18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.' 19 And another said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.' 20 And another said, 'I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.' 21 So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, 'Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.' 22 And the servant said, 'Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.' 23 And the master said to the servant, 'Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.'"
ESV

On another thread in this forum that deals with the hot topic of the nature of God's love, the gent who started the thread accused me of "straining at gnats" because I unearthed one or more "pesky" details to a passage -- for which I made no apologies given Paul's exhortation to Timothy on how to carefully handle God's precious truth (2Tim 2:15). So, I'll begin to unpack the details to this incredibly insightful, blessed and glorious parable.

1. The "servant" is Jesus -- the true Israel of God (Mat 12:18). How we can know this with certainty is that the parable speaks of only one servant -- THE FAITHFUL SERVANT who always did what His Father commanded (Jn 8:29; 14:31; Lk 2:42, 49, etc.)

2. The people "invited" to the feast were the Jews, who for the most part rejected the gracious invitation (Jn 1:11; Lk 17:25)).

3. Because of this rejection on a national scale, Jesus solemnly promised the Jews that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to a "nation" (or "people") who would produce the fruit thereof (Mat 21:43).

4. The Servant's invitation to his Father's people was, of course, in the form of the emphasized outward call of the Gospel whereby "many are called (invited) but few are chosen" (Mat 22:14).

5. Because Israel largely rejected the gospel the emphasis dramatically shifts from this outward call to an efficacious inner call! We can plainly see this shift in the Master's command to his Servant in v.21 wherein He orders Him to go out "into the streets and lanes of the city" (ostensibly Jerusalem) and bring in the spiritually sick. Nothing is commanded about inviting them. Therefore, from this point on the parable begins dealing with a second group of people who experienced this inner call and responded appropriately to it. And this second group were first Jews (Mat 15:24) to whom the Servant was first sent; then after his death, resurrection and ascension the Risen, Glorified Servant was sent to the Gentiles through his chosen Jewish servants (Mat 28:19; Jn 4:22). While from this verse onward, there is nothing said about any "invitation" per se, we should not absurdly press the parable to mean there was no outer call as well. But it's no longer this outward gospel invitation that is emphasized from v.21, as it was earlier. That's all I'm saying.

6. Then when we get to vv. 22-23, we find even far stronger language in the parable whereby elect sinners are "compelled" to attend the banquet (v. 23). (Yet, another example of a loving, rescuing God "forcing" his kind, gracious, merciful, compassionate will upon many helpless sinners so that they may be saved from his eternal wrath!) And we must not forget: It is the sovereign King of kings and Lord of lords, i.e. God's faithful first advent Servant, who is doing all this bringing and compelling; for it HE who sovereignly gives life to whomever HE wishes (Jn 5:21) and who also reveals the Father to whomever he wishes (Mat 11:27). IOW, it's not man's vaunted "freewill" that ultimately accounts for anyone's salvation! It is God's will!

7. Now the best part of the parable that so many professing Christians apparently gloss over because they don't like its implications. Does everyone still remember the first group [of Jews] who were invited to attend the banquet but without any inner, efficacious call? And does everyone remember how everyone in this first group responded? Now read v.24 again very carefully to see what the Master said about these people! In short, the outward call (invitation) of the gospel alone can never save anyone! Sinners must be born of BOTH God's Word AND by the efficacious, inner work of the Holy Spirit in sinners' hearts (John 3:5; Tit 3:5; Eph 5:26; Jas 1:18). Does it not take two human entities of different sexes to procreate physical life? So, then why should anyone be surprised that it takes two different spiritual components to create spiritual life?

This parable is absolutely devastating to those who deny the efficacy of God's grace or deny his sovereignty. As James himself basically said in the above cite, "Of God's own will he brought us forth by the word of truth".

Last but not least: The reason I said under 7 that v. 24 is the "best part of the parable" is because God's salvific work is perfect that comes from a loving heart to a vile, wretched sinner like myself who would have never sought him out if he hadn't found me first! It's a work that I cannot possibly improve upon but can only praise him and be eternally thankful for his tender mercies. Verse 24 (and indeed the rest of the parable) is a great source of joy and encouragement to my heart because God did all that He had to do to save me! Could my tainted will that was formerly driven by the flesh (sinful nature) have done better!? I know the one and only answer to this rhetorical question. But many of you do not!